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  • ROTC

    I think it is totally wrong for Farrington High School to arbitrarily assign boys to the ROTC. We have a voluntary Army. We should certainly have a voluntary ROTC.

  • #2
    Re: ROTC

    When you say FHS "arbitrarily assign boys" to JROTC, are you talking about those students who don't complete the class registration process and thus, are placed in whatever elective classes have openings?

    Admittedly, some students register late through no fault of their own. But Farrington is one of those schools where a whole bunch of kids are simply too lazy/indifferent to register and select their electives. So in those cases, the administration will do it for them.

    I can't imagine any public school making JROTC mandatory in this day and age. Only a private school like Kamehameha is able to do it, and even then, its only a 2 year requirement for boys.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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    • #3
      Re: ROTC

      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
      When you say FHS "arbitrarily assign boys" to JROTC, are you talking about those students who don't complete the class registration process and thus, are placed in whatever elective classes have openings?

      Admittedly, some students register late through no fault of their own. But Farrington is one of those schools where a whole bunch of kids are simply too lazy/indifferent to register and select their electives. So in those cases, the administration will do it for them.

      I can't imagine any public school making JROTC mandatory in this day and age. Only a private school like Kamehameha is able to do it, and even then, its only a 2 year requirement for boys.
      I don't know how you got this data, but this happens at every public high school every year. A "bunch" is subjective.

      What I don't understand is why JROTC is a credit course, and not a club.
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      • #4
        Re: ROTC

        Originally posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
        I don't know how you got this data, but this happens at every public high school every year. A "bunch" is subjective.
        Who said anything about me providing "data?"

        I never claimed to have any numbers at my disposal. All that I'm saying is that there's more than a handful of kids who stubbornly refuse to go through the registration process, even when cajoled by their teachers and counselor. And while that is a problem at every public school as you mentioned, the number of such students tends to be higher at Farrington than at other schools like say, Aiea High. Maybe it is a subjective observation, but its based on my experience of actually having worked at 7 different public schools in three different districts on Oahu, including FHS.
        Last edited by Frankie's Market; January 24, 2010, 06:09 PM.
        This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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        • #5
          Re: ROTC

          Kamehameha dropped ROTC several (8?) years ago (when my son was a sophomore) - there were Federal strings attached that the school felt might have implications for challenges to their admissions policy giving preference to Native Hawaiians.
          Last edited by Kimo; January 24, 2010, 08:31 PM. Reason: typo

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          • #6
            Re: ROTC

            JROTC requires that its students wear a uniform (weekly). A student who did not want to be in that class would most likely NOT wear the uniform. I cannot imagine the military advisor being burdened with uncooperative students; the student would be transfered out quick as you can say, "no draft". I asked my nephew (who is in JROC) if anyone was put into his JROTC class unwillingly, and he said yes, but that those students had been transfered out.
            It is probably a pretty good way to encourage students to bother to register for their electives. Spending a week or two waiting in JROTC to get transfered out might wake them up to the realities of timely registration.
            I'm supportive of those students who want to join JROTC, but it is not the sort of class that you could expect to "make" someone do.
            Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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            • #7
              Re: ROTC

              Originally posted by Amati View Post
              It is probably a pretty good way to encourage students to bother to register for their electives. Spending a week or two waiting in JROTC to get transfered out might wake them up to the realities of timely registration.
              I'm supportive of those students who want to join JROTC, but it is not the sort of class that you could expect to "make" someone do.
              No, probably not. But keep in mind. Those kids who don't want to register are very likely those who are not serious about getting their diploma. They're just marking time in school until they are officially dropped out. They hate JROTC? Well, they might very well hate shop, polynesian music, food and nutrition, etc. IOW, they don't want to do any work, period! But as long as a school is responsible for a student, they have to place them in a class during the school day, somewhere.

              Originally posted by Amati View Post
              JROTC requires that its students wear a uniform (weekly). A student who did not want to be in that class would most likely NOT wear the uniform.
              So does PE. And yes, some kids fail even that because they don't want to change into their PE clothes.
              This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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              • #8
                Re: ROTC

                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                They hate JROTC? Well, they might very well hate shop, polynesian music, food and nutrition, etc. IOW, they don't want to do any work, period! But as long as a school is responsible for a student, they have to place them in a class during the school day, somewhere.
                True. But I wonder if in the case of JROTC, the military advisor has the advantage of having the federal government (ie dollars to put into the school) behind him, which gives him some power. By this, I mean that the school admin most likely would not jeopardize the federal funding that the JROTC program brings to the school. I'd be very surprised if the military advisor insisted that a trouble-maker student be removed from his class and the admin did not do so. It would be much easier to transfer out a non-cooperative student than to replace the funding that JROTC puts into the school. (And, we all know that the Hawaii school system is not overly stressing itself about the welfare of any of it students, and disruptive students are at the bottom of the list.)

                This makes me question how much money the JROTC money does (or doesn't) bring into the school system?? I'm going to do some online checking around and see if I can find some reliable info. Maybe I'm completely wrong about the program bringing in money.
                Last edited by Amati; January 24, 2010, 11:31 PM.
                Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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                • #9
                  Re: ROTC

                  Well, I've spent an hour trying to find info about funding for the JROTC programs. It seems that the military pays a portion of the instructor's wages, and the school pays a portion. (The instructors are retired military, but they are paid as if on active duty while being an instructor. The military and the school pay the difference between the retirement pay and active duty pay, at a 50/50 sharing of the cost). So, if the DOE is paying a portion of the cost for a JROTC program, what is the advantage to having one on campus?? In other words, why would a school want a JROTC program, especially since it is not bring in enough funding to cover its own costs?
                  Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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                  • #10
                    Re: ROTC

                    Originally posted by Amati View Post
                    So, if the DOE is paying a portion of the cost for a JROTC program, what is the advantage to having one on campus?? In other words, why would a school want a JROTC program, especially since it is not bring in enough funding to cover its own costs?
                    I'd hate to have a high school's every club and sports program be self-supporting.

                    Our taekwondo dojang has kids from a number of different Leeward high schools. Across all of those schools, some of the kids are pretty passionate about the camaraderie of JROTC, and they enjoy the drill/PT/orienteering competitions. It brings a positive impact, perhaps even vocational training, into a lot of impressionable teen lives at a time when they might be seeking some direction. A few of them even see JROTC as a stepping stone into the military, offering a "way out" with skills and advanced training, perhaps even a college degree that they think they can't easily afford. Compared to calculus and classic literature, some might find pushups and crawling around in the wilderness are much more achievable, even compelling.

                    Another factor may be that (IMO) Hawaii's culture seems to have a very strong family tradition of military service; stronger than most Mainland states. On the Mainland it'd be much more similar to the demographic phenomenon of having a larger proportion of military recruits being residents of southern states. (http://www.prb.org/Articles/2005/Ame...opulation.aspx) That "family business" aspect isn't seen so strongly in places like Oregon or South Dakota or New York.

                    Of course amidst all the teambuilding and leadership and cool gear and interscholastic rivalry it's easy to lose sight of the fact that the military's mission is to break things and kill people. But I'd prefer to have a teen figure that out in high school rather than after they join a military command, and I bet the military is a lot happier to help them learn that in high school rather than a month after they show up at recruit training.
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                    • #11
                      Re: ROTC

                      Originally posted by Amati View Post
                      ... In other words, why would a school want a JROTC program, especially since it is not bring in enough funding to cover its own costs?
                      I don't know for sure but the schools in question probably already had a JROTC in place and kept it going rather than dropping it.
                      I am a '65 grad from Farrington and in those days it was mandatory to take two years of ROTC, not all public schools had it but Farrington was one that did. Most of us hated it but it wasn't a big deal except for the "parades" and stuff. The draft was also in effect and that may have been a reason for the program being in place.

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                      • #12
                        Re: ROTC

                        Originally posted by D'Alani View Post
                        I don't know for sure but the schools in question probably already had a JROTC in place and kept it going rather than dropping it.
                        I am a '65 grad from Farrington and in those days it was mandatory to take two years of ROTC, not all public schools had it but Farrington was one that did. Most of us hated it but it wasn't a big deal except for the "parades" and stuff. The draft was also in effect and that may have been a reason for the program being in place.
                        Ditto what Dennis said.

                        I wonder how much ROTC's changed.

                        If memory serves: McKinley ('63) had Army ROTC & UH had Air Force ROTC - both mandatory for two years.

                        Besides an early-morning weekly parade around the football field, we had one parade where we marched, in uniform with our M-1s, from McKinley to Piikoi / Ala Moana, then got into the parade and marched to the Diamond Head entrance of Ala Moana Park. Armed Forces Day?

                        Although anti-military sentiments have changed since I left the Navy in '71, I don't think the more recent generations would stand for what we did in ROTC. Parents would be up in arms. Or would they? Hmmmm . . .

                        "Bothersome" describes what we did. Mom would starch and iron my uniform . . . she got the raw end of the deal.
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                        • #13
                          Re: ROTC

                          Originally posted by Amati View Post
                          I'd be very surprised if the military advisor insisted that a trouble-maker student be removed from his class and the admin did not do so.
                          Depends on what you mean by "troublemaker." If someone is acting up and doing violent things, then yeah. But that would be true with any other class. Realistically, the most hardcore kids don't even show up for class at all. There is such a thing as "cutting class."

                          If a kid is merely being uncooperative and will just sit quietly in the corner and sketch pictures of Sponge Bob all day in their notebook, then chances are, the JROTC instructor will tolerate it and just give them an F on their report card. Same as what a PE teacher would do to a kid who refuses to dress up in their PE clothes and participate, like my previous example. Dealing with uncooperative kids in a public school is something that all teachers have to go through, JROTC instructors included. Otherwise, they're in the wrong profession.

                          Originally posted by Nords View Post
                          I'd hate to have a high school's every club and sports program be self-supporting.
                          Exactly. Band is a class. Yet, most band programs are not self-supporting, even with fundraisers. But both bands and drill teams do a lot of things to represent the school in the community. It costs money, sure. But those programs offer non-athletes the opportunity to display their school pride. It's a chance for students to earn class credits in settings that sometimes takes them outside of the campus.

                          JROTC programs often require the kids to attend practices/rehearsals afterschool. So it helps to keep those kids occupied and to stay out of trouble. And as Nords pointed, there's also the friendships/camraderie that JROTC promotes. Better those kinds of friendships than belonging to an unsupervised group. Or even a gang.

                          Wanna put a price on all that?
                          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                          • #14
                            Re: ROTC

                            Originally posted by Amati View Post
                            So, if the DOE is paying a portion of the cost for a JROTC program, what is the advantage to having one on campus?? In other words, why would a school want a JROTC program, especially since it is not bring in enough funding to cover its own costs?
                            Back to my question, why does the school care if there is a JROTC program? I can understand why a student would take JROTC (to learn leadership skills, etc), and why a parent would support that choice (positive skill building, etc), and why a community supports JROTC (respect for the military, etc).

                            But, what is in it for the school? Really problematic kids are not going to be choosing to take the diciplined-based JROTC, so it is not like the school can count on the program to "babysit" the "bad kids", or that it can be seen as an alternative to a gang.

                            I had assumed it was a money thing, that the program brought in much needed dollars. But since that is not the case, then why do the schools support the program?
                            Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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                            • #15
                              Re: ROTC

                              Originally posted by Amati View Post
                              Well, I've spent an hour trying to find info about funding for the JROTC programs. It seems that the military pays a portion of the instructor's wages, and the school pays a portion. (The instructors are retired military, but they are paid as if on active duty while being an instructor. The military and the school pay the difference between the retirement pay and active duty pay, at a 50/50 sharing of the cost). So, if the DOE is paying a portion of the cost for a JROTC program, what is the advantage to having one on campus?? In other words, why would a school want a JROTC program, especially since it is not bring in enough funding to cover its own costs?
                              I believe you do not understand the nuts and bolts of funding involved in this situation. If the cost to the school system for the JROTC instructor is less than the cost of a regular teacher (and I believe it is, considerably), then that instructor is replacing a teacher at a lower cost, hence, cost savings are accrued.

                              Let's take as an example a 30 year military veteran. The difference between retired and active duty pay is 25% of active duty pay (retired with 75% of pay). The school system pays 12.5% of active duty pay and no residual benefits (retirement, medical, etc.). That is likely to be much less than a starting teacher's salary and benefits by a significant margin. Also, the instructor's pay will not [significantly] increase with seniority. Therefore, the school system gets an instructor for 4, 5, 6 class periods (I don't know how it works these days) providing useful instruction (unlike many other courses or study hall) at a fraction of the usual personnel cost. That adds up to cost savings today and tomorrow.
                              Last edited by salmoned; January 25, 2010, 02:59 PM.
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