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Thread: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

  1. #1

    Default SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Hawaii might still get a high speed water transportation vessel(s). This time, the discussion is courtesy of the military.

    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...ased+in+Hawaii


    The Army said it plans to look at the environmental impact of basing up to three "joint high-speed vessels" in Pearl Harbor — speedy craft capable of carrying large loads, similar to the defunct Hawaii Superferry's ships.

    The Army published a notice in the Federal Register on Friday saying it would conduct a programmatic environmental impact statement analysis of basing up to 12 joint high-speed vessels at five locations.

    The environmental analysis will consider the impacts of stationing the Army catamarans in the Virginia Tidewater area; San Diego; Seattle-Tacoma, Wash.; the Pearl Harbor area; and Guam.

    High-speed vessel detachments consist of a 31-member crew and can accommodate up to 360 additional soldiers. The vessels can reach speeds of 35 to 45 knots (40 to 51 mph) and have an equipment carrying capacity of about 700 short tons.

    The vessels will require fueling-at-sea training; helicopter training; live-fire training; and high-speed, open-water training, the Army said.


    SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in.
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    This was the alleged ulterior motive of the HSF in the first place.

    Those "crazy hippies" on Kauai don't look so crazy right now.
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    So was the Nimitz overpass and the H3 freeway. Include the Reef Runway as the alternate landing site for the space shuttle and you got an entire governmental/military infrastructure embedded on Oahu.
    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

  4. #4

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    So was the Nimitz overpass and the H3 freeway. Include the Reef Runway as the alternate landing site for the space shuttle and you got an entire governmental/military infrastructure embedded on Oahu.
    Good point! Actually, the entire interstate freeway system (H-1, H-2, H-3) was built with federal dollars with the idea of connecting the military bases. But of course, the vast majority of the users are civies.

    Heck, looking at the big picture, many of the things that we take for granted today was originally developed and researched primarily for military use. But it's benefits eventually trickled down to the general public. This would include this thing called "the internet."

    So, are all those "military is evil" hippies going to start giving up the internet? My instincts are telling me not to hold my breath.

  5. #5

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    This would include this thing called "the internet."
    How did Al Gore get into this conversation ...
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Go, ArmyFerry, go! To ALL the islands!
    But don't miss the chance to take civilians, too...gotta subsidize the feds!

    (ummm, where else they gonna go, anyway?)

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    Thumbs down Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Amati View Post
    Hawaii might still get a high speed water transportation vessel(s). This time, the discussion is courtesy of the military.

    http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar...ased+in+Hawaii
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
    This was the alleged ulterior motive of the HSF in the first place.

    Those "crazy hippies" on Kauai don't look so crazy right now.
    No kidding, Mike. I announced the ArmyFerry more than six months ago. I’m glad Amati finally got the memo. Incidentally, this removes any doubt that the two Superferrys were military prototypes financed with military-industrial complex cash (and state taxpayers). Thanks for playing.

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    No kidding, Mike. I announced the ArmyFerry more than six months ago. I’m glad Amati finally got the memo. Incidentally, this removes any doubt that the two Superferrys were military prototypes financed with military-industrial complex cash (and state taxpayers). Thanks for playing.
    I'm gonna sit back and see how the ArmyFerry plays out from here on in. Will it carry those darned Strykers between the islands? Is it a Trojan Horse to bring the HSF back? One thing for sure, it'll be one of the more conspicuous legacies of Lingle's governorship.


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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    TuNnL - I'm trying to send you a PM, but your box is full.
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Incidentally, this removes any doubt that the two Superferrys were military prototypes financed with military-industrial complex cash (and state taxpayers).
    I grant you state funds were used to pay for stuff that allowed the Superferry to dock here, but was any state funds used to construct the vessel?

    Plus the Army is going to get new vessels. If they end up with the original two vessels it's only because they couldn't find a use for them.

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    Plus the Army is going to get new vessels. If they end up with the original two vessels it's only because they couldn't find a use for them.
    The HSVs have been hanging around for a while-- one may still be in Pearl Harbor-- and were built to military specs. One of the builders is the same company that built the SuperFerry craft.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austal#...sel_.28JHSV.29
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HSV-2_Swift

    The HSVs have a lot of military design that might not be present in the Alakai, and it's generally an expensive pain to buy and then "militarize" a commercial vessel. Army's been operating watercraft for a while so I doubt they'd be suckered into taking back the Alakai, although I have no doubt that Lehman will give it his best good-ol'-boy-network attempt. I'm not a Lehman fan.
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    On a midweek sailing trip I saw military testing of a prototype on the back side of the Channel Islands off Southernn California in the early 1990s.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  13. #13

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by cyleet99 View Post
    Go, ArmyFerry, go! To ALL the islands!
    But don't miss the chance to take civilians, too...gotta subsidize the feds!
    (ummm, where else they gonna go, anyway?)
    For what?
    What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?

    Massive polluters, stolen lands, lethal residuals from explosives, remaining ordinence waiting to kill/maim. What's to love?

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    For what?
    What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?

    Massive polluters, stolen lands, lethal residuals from explosives, remaining ordinence waiting to kill/maim. What's to love?
    This.

    Quoted for truth.
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    Thumbs up Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike_Lowery View Post
    TuNnL - I'm trying to send you a PM, but your box is full.
    Sorry, that box fills up quick. I cleared it.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  16. #16

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    For what?
    What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?
    How about H1, H2, & H3? Was it not a US sub that provided electricity for Kauai after Iniki? Or wasn't it National Guard equipment transported by the SF to Maui to assist in storm clean up?


    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Incidentally, this removes any doubt that the two Superferrys were military prototypes financed with military-industrial complex cash (and state taxpayers).
    Uhm....how?

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Was it not a US sub that provided electricity for Kauai after Iniki?
    Not quite. That one's starting to gain urban-legend status.
    http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08697.htm
    http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2005...ulf-coast.html

    It was the USS INDIANAPOLIS after Iwa, but that "reverse shore power" would've been limited to a mere 1600 amps and would've required overriding some interlocks. It was also a politically dangerous decision that would've required CNO/Naval Reactors permission. (Admiral Rickover was absolutely livid over the prospect of using military nuclear plants for civilian power but he'd retired earlier in 1982 and his input was no longer welcome.) In the end the plan was to just quietly provide a power boost to allow Kauai to restart their electric utility's generators, but another support vessel was standing by for that purpose so INDY power wasn't needed.

    I was at COMSUBPAC Operations for the Iniki port egress. The subject of sending a submarine to Kauai came up again that morning and was met with howls of protest. We barely got everyone out of the harbor without running into each other, let alone routing someone over to Nawiliwili before we had any idea what the hurricane had done to the channel. IIRC an amphibious surface ship was also nominated for Kauai support that week, but by that time we had our hands full trying to get everyone back into port without running into each other.

    That was an ugly week. Spouse was seven months pregnant at home so no way was I going to hide at HQ until the storm had passed. I didn't get out of the ops bunker until about 11 AM and the drive home was very exciting, but luckily no one else was on H-1 so it wasn't a problem if I was using two or three lanes with every wind gust. By that time I'd been up for about 30 hours, so I slept through Iniki's passage and then went back in that evening to start the return to port.

    Funny how everyone complains about having the military in their backyard during peacetime.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    How about H1, H2, & H3? Was it not a US sub that provided electricity for Kauai after Iniki? Or wasn't it National Guard equipment transported by the SF to Maui to assist in storm clean up?
    Freeways? We needed the US military to build us freeways?
    Sub - debunked.
    We couldn't handle that in-state without the military? If not, that's pathetic and risky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    Funny how everyone complains about having the military in their backyard during peacetime.
    We should be worrying about an invasion?

  19. #19

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Freeways? We needed the US military to build us freeways?
    Sub - debunked.
    We couldn't handle that in-state without the military? If not, that's pathetic and risky.
    Ron, I did not say we needed the US military to build us some freeways. But you did ask what has the US military contributed. Without their need to connect their bases, I would have like to see where we would come up with the funds for the other 80% of the costs for the H1, H2, and H3. There's a reason why they're named as interstates despite them not connecting to any other state.

    Sub debunked but Nords did say there was a plan to use a sub to help Kauai kickstart their powerplants. And you left out the National Guard's contribution on Maui. Yes, you can say civilians could do the same job but all I am pointing out is what the US military has contributed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    Not quite. That one's starting to gain urban-legend status.
    http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08697.htm
    http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2005...ulf-coast.html

    It was the USS INDIANAPOLIS after Iwa, but that "reverse shore power" would've been limited to a mere 1600 amps and would've required overriding some interlocks. It was also a politically dangerous decision that would've required CNO/Naval Reactors permission. (Admiral Rickover was absolutely livid over the prospect of using military nuclear plants for civilian power but he'd retired earlier in 1982 and his input was no longer welcome.) In the end the plan was to just quietly provide a power boost to allow Kauai to restart their electric utility's generators, but another support vessel was standing by for that purpose so INDY power wasn't needed.

    I was at COMSUBPAC Operations for the Iniki port egress. The subject of sending a submarine to Kauai came up again that morning and was met with howls of protest. We barely got everyone out of the harbor without running into each other, let alone routing someone over to Nawiliwili before we had any idea what the hurricane had done to the channel. IIRC an amphibious surface ship was also nominated for Kauai support that week, but by that time we had our hands full trying to get everyone back into port without running into each other.

    That was an ugly week. Spouse was seven months pregnant at home so no way was I going to hide at HQ until the storm had passed. I didn't get out of the ops bunker until about 11 AM and the drive home was very exciting, but luckily no one else was on H-1 so it wasn't a problem if I was using two or three lanes with every wind gust. By that time I'd been up for about 30 hours, so I slept through Iniki's passage and then went back in that evening to start the return to port.

    Funny how everyone complains about having the military in their backyard during peacetime.
    Thank you for the detailed explanation. Nonetheless, it appears a sub could have been used to help Kauai restart their powerplants right?

  20. #20

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    We couldn't handle that in-state without the military? If not, that's pathetic and risky.
    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Ron, I did not say we needed the US military to build us some freeways. But you did ask what has the US military contributed. Without their need to connect their bases, I would have like to see where we would come up with the funds for the other 80% of the costs for the H1, H2, and H3. There's a reason why they're named as interstates despite them not connecting to any other state.

    Sub debunked but Nords did say there was a plan to use a sub to help Kauai kickstart their powerplants. And you left out the National Guard's contribution on Maui. Yes, you can say civilians could do the same job but all I am pointing out is what the US military has contributed.
    When I asked the question it was knowing well there are contrubutions pro and con the military are responsible for in whole or part.
    But were they essential?
    A smarter plan to limit cars and supporting a great rail system early on would have benefitted Oahu much better than promoting freeways and car sales.

    Great that the Navy provided some help. A super ferry would be better than a sub most probably and should have been here long ago.

    I did address Maui, see at top.

    But Hawaii has most always been lacking in preservation, preparedness, and innovative thinking, to our detriment. Thus allowing the military an inroad for things we otherwise may have done well without.

  21. #21

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    I did address Maui, see at top.
    Noted, thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    When I asked the question it was knowing well there are contrubutions pro and con the military are responsible for in whole or part.
    But were they essential?
    I was merely answering the original question.

    "What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?"

  22. #22
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    I'm cheering on a ferry, any ferry...not necessarily the military.

    If Hawai`i wants to provide for itself more readily without relying on the outside world, interisland transport for goods and services needs to diversify.

    I guess we could use large canoes and sail power.

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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Thank you for the detailed explanation. Nonetheless, it appears a sub could have been used to help Kauai restart their powerplants right?
    In the same manner that any of us could drive our cars over there, help them hook up a set of jumper cables, and rev our engine while they tried to crank their starters.

    The military's pretty experienced at disaster relief-- medical personnel, food, water, labor-- no problem. Unloading a bunch of generators on the pier and getting them to where they need to be-- fine. Spouse had a Navy Reserve billet as a military liaison to the state civil defense and FEMA staffs, and hers was just one of three billets in the state. Those guys went on active duty for exercises and emergencies. When the civil authorities ask for military help there's a whole avalanche of transportation, materials, & labor. Submarines aren't on the list. They could be specifically requested, of course, but there are so many bigger & better things to ask for.

    Using a naval vessel to power a civilian utility has been the "third rail" of the naval nuclear power community for over 50 years, and overriding a bunch of interlocks to make it happen is technically difficult & physically dangerous. Once INDY got over there and swapped technical info with the utility's staff I bet everybody backed off and waited for a shipment of generators. I've melted & blown up my share of military electrical equipment over the years and I doubt even the cowboys were willing to "give it a try".

    When HECO lost power after the lightning strike they managed to restart their plants all by themselves. Hopefully every other state utility company can do the same for themselves by now. Diesel generators are a lot cheaper-- and probably faster-- than military assistance.

    Eisenhower created the interstate highway system during the Cold War specifically as military infrastructure. States weren't obligated to participate but nobody wanted to see California other states grabbing all the federal funding. For example, Hawaii is one of the few states to have a waiver allowing our "interstate" highways to not have a straight & flat one-mile stretch in every five to provide for military aircraft emergency runways. (I don't think the MILSPEC includes pothole-free, but that's a different thread.) States don't have to build interstates, of course, but a fundamental Constitutional shift has been the states giving the federal govt some degree of power in exchange for a share of the tax revenue.

    The military may be a noisy, messy, poorly-behaved, and even dangerous tenant to have on your property-- and insurance is expensive if it's never used-- but they're both good to have around during an emergency.

    Speaking of tenants: the best tenants we've ever had in our rental have been military families. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but at least they rarely get laid off or have trouble taking care of the place.
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  24. #24
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    For what?
    What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?

    Massive polluters, stolen lands, lethal residuals from explosives, remaining ordinence waiting to kill/maim. What's to love?
    Tax dollars, second largest industry in this state, retail spending. And the military isn't as bad as you state. Sure they pollute, but so does our construction and tourism industries. Stole lands? No our federal government stole the lands not the military. And all the talk about explosives, remaining ordinance...when was the last time a local resident was blown up or maimed walking around the city of Honolulu or anywhere there can walk around right now? NEVER...that was the last time someone was hurt with unexploded military ordinance.

    What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades? Well for one thing my boy is in the US Marines right now and he is being taxed at both the state and federal level. His state tax dollars go into the State's General Fund like all local boys and gals who enter the service. What has the military done for Hawaii ever? They've been there in times of natural disasters, they've helped local communities with playgrounds. They do more than just protect our freedoms, they are in our communities, in our retail establishments, and in the general public. The military is made up of people like you and me with one difference, their job is more demanding than yours.

    They take your crap and protect that ass for which your crap comes out of.
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  25. #25

    Default OK...

    ...take the $ and emotion out of your reply, and what's left?

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