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Thread: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

  1. #26
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Assuming that the Army gets these ships and base some of them here in Hawaii, then what?

    The Army is not going run these ships as a regular scheduled ferry service between the islands.

  2. #27

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    The Army is not going run these ships as a regular scheduled ferry service between the islands.
    What precident is there to such diversity?
    Other than possible emergency relief/rescue actions, I don't see the military using their high tech vessels for anything 'civil'.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by helen View Post
    Assuming that the Army gets these ships and base some of them here in Hawaii, then what?

    The Army is not going run these ships as a regular scheduled ferry service between the islands.
    Then the Strykers tear up the islands!
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    I say ... let the North Koreans take over ... or blow us off the face of the earth.

    That way nobody wins, including the US and Hawaiians.

    Armageddon sounds a lot better nowadays.

    Besides, when disaster strikes, we get plenny (albeit small) fishing boats.
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  5. #30

    Default Re: OK...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    ...take the $ and emotion out of your reply, and what's left?
    Hmm...."They've been there in times of natural disasters, they've helped local communities with playgrounds."???

  6. #31

    Default Re: OK...

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    Hmm...."They've been there in times of natural disasters, they've helped local communities with playgrounds."???
    Since we've had few natural disasters, in how many decades that they would actually be useful/needed, sounds more like PR than much else.

    This state is grossly inadequate in self-sustaining civil defense. We should have had a super ferry long ago for such emergencies with an infrastructure that compliments it on all islands. Plenty good paying jobs with that set up that we've missed out on.
    Instead we threw away $50 mil. (minimum) for a super ferry bust, and are still sitting ducks. We've just been super lucky we've not been seriously tested, minus a coupla hurricanes. When 'the big one' finally wipes us out, then all these decades of inaction will be scrutinized unfavorably. Same for our roads. When it really hits the fan, it will be massive and crushing kaos.

  7. #32

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    The military is made up of people like you and me with one difference, their job is more demanding than yours.

    They take your crap and protect that ass for which your crap comes out of.
    No truer words are said, of some people.

  8. #33
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    The military is made up of people like you and me with one difference, their job is more demanding than yours. They take your crap and protect that ass for which your crap comes out of.

    Amen. Military life isn't a picnic life.

    Can't think of anything creative this time


  9. #34

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    And all the talk about explosives, remaining ordinance...when was the last time a local resident was blown up or maimed walking around the city of Honolulu or anywhere there can walk around right now? NEVER...that was the last time someone was hurt with unexploded military ordinance.
    Actually, the problem of unexpoded military ordnance is quite a problem. We were on a tour to the observatory on the Big Island, and our guide gave us some interesting information. Here is what I found online.
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar.../ln/ln01a.html
    Deaths, injuries since 1945: Known deaths and injuries from unexploded military ordnance on the Big Island:
    • A civilian highway worker was killed by exploding ordnance in 1945 while working on a road project three miles south of Waimea near Mamalahoa Highway.
    • Two Parker Ranch employees were killed and three more were injured in 1954 when a mortar round exploded as the men were getting on a truck after working on a pasture fence. The deaths of Joseph Iokepa and Theodore Bell, both 21, prompted a clearing operation on Parker Ranch lands that turned up more than 900 grenades, mortars and shells.
    • Seventeen-year-old Waimea resident James O'Hare died in 1971 when a 40 mm grenade exploded as he attempted to dismantle it. Police said the youth found the grenade at the Pohakuloa Training Area.
    • Two Schofield Barracks soldiers were injured in 1983 on Parker Ranch land near Pu'upa about four miles from Waimea when an old round exploded during a military exercise. Thomas Skipon suffered shrapnel wounds to the stomach and Darby Holsing had shrapnel wounds to his feet. The military swept the area with metal detectors after the incident.
    http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/artic...al/local04.txt
    A 105 mm round was found near Waikoloa homes in March 2001. Hand grenades turned up at Waimea Middle School in February 2002 and again the following month. Children found another grenade near the school in March 2004, and other unexploded munitions appeared last year.

    http://www.dmzhawaii.org/?p=4186
    Sept 2009
    More than 2,100 “munitions and explosives of concern” and 260 tons of military debris have been taken from the area over the past seven years at a cost of $82 million, it said.
    In March 2008, the Corps estimated another $680 million will be needed to finish the project.
    So, the cleanup has started, but estimates are that it will take 50 years to complete the cleanup. In the meanwhile, the training area of Pohakuloa continues to be a practice site. And, I won't even go into the topic of depleted uranium that has been found there. There is no denial that unexploded ordnance is a danger to citizens. Thankfully, the cleanup is in progress, but 50 years to accomplish it???
    Last edited by Amati; February 16th, 2010 at 12:07 AM.
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  10. #35

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by craigwatanabe View Post
    1) Sure they pollute, but so does our construction and tourism industries.
    2) Stole lands? No our federal government stole the lands not the military. 3) And all the talk about explosives, remaining ordinance...when was the last time a local resident was blown up or maimed walking around the city of Honolulu or anywhere there can walk around right now? NEVER...that was the last time someone was hurt with unexploded military ordinance.
    4) What has the military done for Hawaii ever? They've been there in times of natural disasters, they've helped local communities with playgrounds. They do more than just protect our freedoms, they are in our communities, in our retail establishments, and in the general public.
    5) The military is made up of people like you and me with one difference, their job is more demanding than yours. They take your crap and protect that ass for which your crap comes out of.
    1) Not close to the amounts and volitility of what the Navy alone puts out.
    2) The majority of Waikane Valley is off limits due to unexplodeds that the military promised to clean up entirely, then didn't. Maybe the State is complicite in letting them get away with it, but the military knew they wouldn't be bothered to do the right thing.
    All my life I've known the military to be big fat liars.
    3) How many lives does it take before 'oh, that's enuf'?
    4) What were they going to do instead, create bad PR for themselves?
    Playgrounds...?
    5) That's the job they signed on for. It doesn't include waving the flag in someone's face.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    How about we don't have a military?

    Even better, let's eliminate the first responders as well.

    Everyone's a big fat liars, including Obama. But they're there, whether we need them or not.

    If you don't want the military protecting you, fine. You still have your Second Amendment.
    Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

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  12. #37

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Amati View Post
    So, the cleanup has started, but estimates are that it will take 50 years to complete the cleanup. In the meanwhile, the training area of Pohakuloa continues to be a practice site. And, I won't even go into the topic of depleted uranium that has been found there. There is no denial that unexploded ordnance is a danger to citizens. Thankfully, the cleanup is in progress, but 50 years to accomplish it???
    OTOH, while virtually every other land owner in Waikiki has plopped some sort of highrise or shopping center development on their plot, the military has maintained quite a bit of open space on Fort DeRussy, making it an oasis in what has become a concrete jungle.

    If it takes 50 years to clean up the unexploded ordinances, can you tell me how long it will take to fix the problem of traffic congestion and noise that has occurred as a result of local govt. allowing an overly high concentration of resort development to get so tightly packed into Waikiki?

  13. #38
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Amati View Post
    Actually, the problem of unexpoded military ordnance is quite a problem. We were on a tour to the observatory on the Big Island, and our guide gave us some interesting information. Here is what I found online.
    http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/ar.../ln/ln01a.html

    http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/artic...al/local04.txt

    http://www.dmzhawaii.org/?p=4186
    Sept 2009

    So, the cleanup has started, but estimates are that it will take 50 years to complete the cleanup. In the meanwhile, the training area of Pohakuloa continues to be a practice site. And, I won't even go into the topic of depleted uranium that has been found there. There is no denial that unexploded ordnance is a danger to citizens. Thankfully, the cleanup is in progress, but 50 years to accomplish it???
    I stand corrected, mahalo Amati.
    Life is what you make of it...so please read the instructions carefully.

  14. #39

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Random View Post
    How about we don't have a military?
    Even better, let's eliminate the first responders as well.
    Everyone's a big fat liars, including Obama. But they're there, whether we need them or not.
    If you don't want the military protecting you, fine. You still have your Second Amendment.
    Obama? What's next, a socialist rant?
    How 'bout we just go for a nice bumpy forum ride without going over the cliff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    OTOH, while virtually every other land owner in Waikiki has plopped some sort of highrise or shopping center development on their plot, the military has maintained quite a bit of open space on Fort DeRussy, making it an oasis in what has become a concrete jungle.
    If it takes 50 years to clean up the unexploded ordinances, can you tell me how long it will take to fix the problem of traffic congestion and noise that has occurred as a result of local govt. allowing an overly high concentration of resort development to get so tightly packed into Waikiki?
    The DeRussy space may seem like a lot, it's not, especially amongst their own concrete monuments. And you're not allowed to do much on it except pass by.

    50 years? It's been at least as much since the Waikane family was booted out to bomb.
    Waikiki's mess will have to wait. Save The Natatorium!

  15. #40

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    The DeRussy space may seem like a lot, it's not, especially amongst their own concrete monuments.
    But the point is,.... whatever land they had in Waikiki, they have, by far, preserved the most open space on a % basis while the other landowners were all too eager too cover every square inch of theirs with concrete and asphalt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Waikiki's mess will have to wait.
    And how is this complacent attitude of yours any better than all of the complaints about the military dragging their feet when it comes to cleaning up unexploded ordinances?

    Pot, meet kettle.

  16. #41

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie's Market View Post
    But the point is,.... whatever land they had in Waikiki, they have, by far, preserved the most open space on a % basis while the other landowners were all too eager too cover every square inch of theirs with concrete and asphalt.

    And how is this complacent attitude of yours any better than all of the complaints about the military dragging their feet when it comes to cleaning up unexploded ordinances?

    Pot, meet kettle.
    Winner by default. Whoelse even has open land in Waikiki but for a few vacant lots, or has the kala to just sit on that much prime open space? It ain't done purely out of benevolence for Hawaii.

    Tell me, how either one can be budged in relative short order without massive protest?

    I'll keep the pot, the kettle's your's.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    it's pretty ridiculous how a privately funded company makes the concept a reality and then gets shut down for environmental impact reasons, yet when the military wants to operate the same way using the same vessels (i understand they're considering leasing the Hawaii Superferry boats) paid for by tax dollars, oh sure no problem go right ahead

  18. #43
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    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    it's pretty ridiculous how a privately funded company makes the concept a reality and then gets shut down for environmental impact reasons, yet when the military wants to operate the same way using the same vessels (i understand they're considering leasing the Hawaii Superferry boats) paid for by tax dollars, oh sure no problem go right ahead
    From the opposite perspective, I'm surprised that there weren't more military-conspiracy objections when the SuperFerry was largely funded by a former Secretary of the Navy (a private-equity executive to boot) and run by a former CINC of Pacific Command...
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  19. #44
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    Talking Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    it's pretty ridiculous how a privately funded company makes the concept a reality and then gets shut down for environmental impact reasons, yet when the military wants to operate the same way using the same vessels (i understand they're considering leasing the Hawaii Superferry boats) paid for by tax dollars, oh sure no problem go right ahead
    They're starting a ferry service for us? That's cool.

    Maybe the Air Force is going to start flight service using their C-30.

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  20. #45
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    Lightbulb Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by joshuatree View Post
    The conspiracy theory I'm referring to is that specifically the two SF boats were secretly built for the US Navy and the whole ferry operation was nothing more than a scam to get taxpayers to pay for them. This remains to be seen. I'm still waiting for the Alakai and Huakai to be repainted in navy grey.
    Wait no longer, joshuatree...

    Isle home possible for past Superferry
    The Pentagon has considered basing a converted carrier at Pearl Harbor

    By William Cole
    POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jan 28, 2012


    The $35 million sale of the defunct Hawaii Superferries Alakai and Huakai by the U.S. Maritime Administration to the U.S. Navy, finalized last week, raised the possibility that one of the blue-and-white high-speed vessels could return to Hawaii in battleship gray.

    [...]

    Separate from the two former superferries, the Pentagon had plans to build and operate 10 additional Joint High-Speed Vessels, and said in 2010 that it was looking at basing up to three of the speedy cargo and troop carriers at Pearl Harbor.

    But new defense budget priorities released Thursday call for reducing that number by eight. Officials with the Sealift Command, which will operate the high-speed vessels, could not be reached for comment about the reduction.

    The Army talked for years about the advantages of having one of the big Joint High-Speed Vessels in Hawaii to transport Stryker armored vehicles and troops to Pohakuloa Training Area on Hawaii island.

    The Navy wanted them to move Marines and equipment and possibly use them as a platform from which it could conduct humanitarian assistance efforts.

    "The versatility and utility of the Joint High-Speed Vessel, when fielded by the U.S. Navy, will provide the Army and Marines in Hawaii with a durable, flexible and responsive seagoing platform that can transport and assist to sustain forces during training, inter-theater movement or distributed operations," U.S. Army Pacific at Fort Shafter said in a statement Tuesday.

    The two superferries were transferred from the U.S. Department of Transportation's Maritime Administration to the Navy on Jan. 20, officials said.

    The Maritime Administration took custody of the superferries in 2009 as part of bankruptcy proceedings after the state Supreme Court ruled that Hawaii Superferry couldn't operate without completing an environmental impact statement. The company subsequently folded.

    The Alakai made its last round trip between Oahu and Maui in March 2009. A second superferry destined for Hawaii, the Huakai, was retrofitted with a vehicle loading ramp that would have allowed access to large piers without having to use an onshore ramp.

    Military Sealift Command said Tuesday that one of the former superferries, which it refers to now simply as "high-speed vessels," will replace Westpac Express, leased from Australia-based shipyard Austal Ltd., once modifications to passenger accommodations and the ship's mission areas have been made.

    The two ships are at Lambert's Point in Norfolk, Va., and will remain there until a contract for shipyard availability is secured, the Navy said. The two former superferries will be renamed, and both will eventually bear the prefix "USNS" for noncommissioned ships that belong to the Navy, officials said.

    Austal USA was to build 10 Joint High-Speed Vessels for the Navy at a potential cost of more than $1.6 billion. The Westpac Express in Japan, an early test of the design, was first chartered to the III Marine Expeditionary Force in July 2001. A new contract for the Westpac Express starts in February and will last between six and 24 months.

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  21. #46

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Wait no longer, joshuatree...

    Isle home possible for past Superferry
    The Pentagon has considered basing a converted carrier at Pearl Harbor

    By William Cole
    POSTED: 01:30 a.m. HST, Jan 28, 2012
    Oh wow, so I was wrong, it was one giant, near decade long, elaborate plan to get one of the vessels into military service here and another to replace Westpac Express which already has the same proven design for any prototyping needed......after some modifications and retrofit still needed, almost 3 years after last ferry service. Guess all those protesters and courts were all agents of the military too. Also nevermind that USNS Spearhead has a more identical profile to Westpac Express. Irony is, you now potentially have one of them crossing island waters with no need for whale lookouts or EISs or anything.

    Whatever victory this was for Hawaii and its residents, I certainly don't know.

    Btw, the link you posted, there appears to be a segment not posted in your quote.

    "All that's certain is that one of the former passenger catamarans will not be operating out of Hawaii in the near future...."????

  22. #47

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    From The Garden Island online newspaper [my bolds]:

    About $40 million in statewide harbor improvements — from state revenue bonds that are still being paid — is currently being sold in an auction for a fraction of the original cost. “The $250,000 is the upset price. Of course, we are hoping we can get as much money back as possible,” said Caroline Sluyter, spokeswoman for the state Department of Transportation. She added the upset price is set by market conditions.
    All of the equipment in harbors on Kauai, Oahu, Maui and the Big Island is to be sold as one lot. There are ramps, stairs, light poles, forklift extenders, chains, cables, sealed crates and three large barges. Two barges measure 269 feet each, and a third one measures 193 feet. The barges have “been sitting out there for a while,” and have “aged,” according to Sluyter.
    As for the Alakai and Huakai ships:

    In December 2010, the U.S. Department of Transportation Maritime Administration gained the title to both ships through foreclosure. MARAD had given a loan guarantee of nearly $140 million for the construction of the boats, which originally cost $178 million. When MARAD acquired the ships, $50 million of its loan guarantee was reduced, according to the Professional Mariner website.
    In January 2012, the Navy paid MARAD $35 million for both ships. (The Alakai had been delivered and used in Hawaii waters, the Huakai was built but not used here.) According to the article, The Alakai is now the USNS Puerto Rico, and the Huakai is now the USNS Guam.

    The ferry idea is dead, I guess that I'll need to join the military if I ever expect to be transported by either of those ships.
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

  23. #48

    Default Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

    Gov. A is said to be moving towards getting both vessels back to HI.

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