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  • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

    Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    I assume ancient Tongan society had a warrior caste and that Tongans killed other Tongans with weapons?
    Absolutely! The Tongans carried it to an art form. Today they are a very non-violent people. The practice of making war not only on your neighbors but also on your own people was a cultural practice to protect the food supply, insure survival of the fittest, and entertainment. Today they consider that mentality "primitive." Personal ownership of guns is banned in Tonga. Consequently, the violent crime rate is very low.

    Unfortunately, the US culture hasn't progressed to that point yet.

    Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
    Where were you when Frankie was harassing me?
    Matapules work in strange ways to keep peace in the community.

    I think you need more explaining to do for your actions.
    Male menopause?

    What are you hiding? What, or who, motivated you?
    Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker, Jose Cuervo, and Bud Weiser

    I'm no closer to normal than you.
    Ha! I have IRTNOG and you never will.
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

    Comment


    • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

      Matapule: What's the population density like in Tonga? Do a lot of Tongans immigrate away? How big is the gap between the rich and the poor? Would most of the people in Tonga be considered middle class? What's the drug abuse rate like down there? Do most Tongans garden/farm and grow their own food?
      "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
      "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
      "
      Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

      Comment


      • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

        Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
        We are 40 years overdue for our "welcome home."
        Welcome home, Kaonohi. Our country is a better place with people like you back here, where you belong.

        I never heard of Joe Haldeman. Thanks for pointing him out. I'll have to check out his books.


        Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
        Of course, there's many lawmakers in DC who place a greater value on their relationships with lobbyists rather than the voice of the people.
        I think that's true for most politicians. Heck, I bet after a long day of "work", Democrats and Republicans are buddy buddy behind the scenes. The whole Dem vs. Rep thing is like a parent who controls a stubborn child that doesn't want to wear the clothes they're expected to wear. You give them the illusion of a choice between two outfits, but in the end you're the one controlling the choices.

        Most Americans (myself included) are still immature children because we look to the government to take care and protect us. Many of us are not very self-reliant. We overly depend on systems of support run by politicians/bureaucrats, paid for by tax dollars, and which are relatively fragile (just-in-time-inventory = great profit margins but vulnerable to disruptions in the supply chain).

        Do we use our pantries the way they're meant to be used? Do we have a 3 week supply of food/necessities in case a sunken vessel blocks the entrance to our port, the shoremen decide to go on strike, or a flu pandemic leads to a forced quarantine? If you were among the many who rushed to the store, after an earthquake or news of an upcoming hurricane, to snatch up bottled water, toilet tissue, and bread; then the answer is "no".

        Do most of us have a 72-hour emergency survival kit with critical items such as anti-diarrhea medication so our children don't die of dehydration after drinking contaminated water at a public shelter?

        How many of us still carry a balance on our credit cards? Slaves to debt, eaten alive every day by compounding interest?

        Sorry for the tangent, but I believe our government and politicians abuse us because we are a weak people. You want to be treated with respect? You need to earn that respect. We shouldn't look to politicians to do things for us; we should do as much as much as we can for ourselves. Reduce taxes (and fees, which are hidden taxes), shrink government, and get politicians out of our way. Work on making yourself and your community strong.


        Yep. Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds is a necessity for "self-defense."
        Here's the SD justification for extended magazines: to reduce how often you need to reload, a time when you're most vulnerable (look at what happened to Loughner).

        SD folks fixate on the most extreme scenario: they are alone and ambushed by multiple assailants who are armed with guns, knives, bats, etc. They expect to miss a lot and have more attackers to deal with.

        Instead of feeling the need to have larger magazines, these scenarios make me feel the need to learn how to avoid them all together.

        A 33-round mag is too large to carry around concealed (not to mention unwieldy in a handgun), so you'd most likely use it around your home, work place, or vehicle; not walking through a supermarket.

        I don't care for the 33-round magazine myself, but here's why I think some gun owners are fighting for them: they feel that if they give an inch, the government will take a mile. They push for more rights now, because they expect to lose ground in the future.

        SD'ers also think a lot about EOTWAWKI scenarios (end of the world as we know it). I really don't know if I'd want to live in that reality.
        "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
        "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
        "
        Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

        Comment


        • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

          Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
          Yep. Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds is a necessity for "self-defense."
          Well, maybe for you it is - I don't know what your firearms proficiency is, though from your rhetoric, I'd tend to believe 33 rounds may not be enough.

          Actually, 33 rounds takes about 18+ seconds, but why quibble over a few seconds? For HPD it may be a bonus, having had to use over 300 rounds in the Kaneohe Kahekili Highway incident several years ago to murder a 'suspect.' Perhaps we need to arm HPD with bazookas....

          I liked the idea of the Glock 15 round magazine, but didn't quibble when our state demanded adherence to 10 rounds max. I have never needed more than one at a time, or perhaps two - if the target moved.

          You are right, Frankie, 33 rounds is more for a wartime situation, but still, even with that, a Glock 17 or 19, even with an extended magazine is not by any means an "assault weapon."

          An assault weapon has full-automatic (i.e., machine gun) capability. It has rounds (bullets) capable of inflicting the most possible damage, like the AK-47 7.62x39 mm, or the M-16 .223, or the M-14 7.62x51. The magazines are 20 to 50 rounds each, and are made for assault during wartime.

          Semi-automatic weapons (more accurately 'autoloading'), are poor choices for assault. Full-auto assault weapons can discharge 33 rounds in about 3 seconds. The so-called 'assault weapon ban' simply banned lookalike weapons, as full-automatic weapons are already (and appropriately) illegal.

          For self defense in a home invasion situation (which are getting more and more common in the USA as criminals get their illegal weapons from Mexico and other overseas locations), a 9mm handgun with 8 to 10 rounds is more than adequate IF the homeowner has been through a training class on how to use a handgun properly, safely and accurately. I would love to see that as a requirement for firearm possession, as it already is in Hawaii.

          In fact, I'd love to see our HPD better trained in the use of all their weapons - imagine tasering an old, fragile homeless woman who could have been restrained by hand! Remember that one?

          I see our society more and more heading toward a fascist police state, using the rubric of 'protect and serve' as an excuse. No wonder that the NRA and the GOA are fighting the slippery slope of "if they ban this then they'll ban that" and soon we'll be like England, where common law-abiding citizens are jailed for protecting their homes from criminals.

          Criminals will always have access to firearms; only law-abiding citizens will be disarmed. We require schooling, training and testing for drivers of motor vehicles, why not for firearms? Even the NRA wouldn't argue with that - in fact, they would welcome it.

          We need to get off the firearm hysteria and start to look at things with logic and sensibility. This 'Chicken Little' panic approach will NOT bring us to any useful conclusions. Spouting dramatic inaccuracies like "Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds" serves nothing but the fear factor, and (according to Franklin D. Roosevelt, often attributed to Winston Churchill) "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."

          Fearmongers, take heed; you are exposed and your days are numbered.
          Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
          ~ ~
          Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
          Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
          Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

          Comment


          • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_807532.html

            This is a low tech version of a force field.

            Comment


            • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

              This thread is spinning so far off topic, that it is no longer serving a useful purpose. Time for moderators to shut it down.
              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

              Comment


              • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                Or maybe it's time for members to try and get back on topic, or find another thread.

                Comment


                • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                  I'm breathlessly waiting for Godwin's Law.
                  Burl Burlingame
                  "Art is never finished, only abandoned." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
                  honoluluagonizer.com

                  Comment


                  • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                    Originally posted by admin View Post
                    Or maybe it's time for members to try and get back on topic, or find another thread.
                    Indeed. Good call, Ryan (I assume).

                    I think one thing we can agree on is that this was (is) a needless tragedy and that whatever our political affiliation or leaning, our prayers (for those who do) and good wishes (for those who wish) should be directed to the individuals and families who were the victims of a person who was most certainly deluded, if not insane.

                    It is unlikely that we can prevent such tragedies in the future - since we haven't been so good in the past. Still, we must try, even if it means butting our heads together till we can no longer think straight.
                    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                    ~ ~
                    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                      Of course, there's many lawmakers in DC who place a greater value on their relationships with lobbyists rather than the voice of the people.
                      Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                      I think that's true for most politicians. Heck, I bet after a long day of "work", Democrats and Republicans are buddy buddy behind the scenes. The whole Dem vs. Rep thing is like a parent who controls a stubborn child that doesn't want to wear the clothes they're expected to wear. You give them the illusion of a choice between two outfits, but in the end you're the one controlling the choices.
                      True for most politicians? I certainly won't argue that point. However, a special note needs to be made about the Congresswoman who has introduced this bill.

                      Carolyn McCarthy's husband was one of 6 victims killed in the 1993 Long Island rail massacre. Her son was wounded in the attack and left partially paralyzed. Knowing these facts, it would take one heckuva cynic to cast Rep. McCarthy as someone who is merely grandstanding and introducing her gun control measure for publicity. Now anyone can claim several degrees of seperation from one of the victims in Tucson. OTOH, this lady has actually lived through the nightmare and truly KNOWS what the victim's survivors are going through. With all that said, this doesn't mean that everyone needs to agree with McCarthy's proposals. But casting aspersions on her sincerity and convictions on the issue,... sorry, that just doesn't fly.

                      Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                      Here's the SD justification for extended magazines: to reduce how often you need to reload, a time when you're most vulnerable (look at what happened to Loughner).

                      SD folks fixate on the most extreme scenario: they are alone and ambushed by multiple assailants who are armed with guns, knives, bats, etc. They expect to miss a lot and have more attackers to deal with.

                      Instead of feeling the need to have larger magazines, these scenarios make me feel the need to learn how to avoid them all together.
                      I guess a member of the mob might need to have that much firepower at their disposal. Someone in the drug trade, extortion racket, etc. OTOH, any law-abiding person who feels the need to own the same is just plain paranoid.

                      Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                      SD'ers also think a lot about EOTWAWKI scenarios (end of the world as we know it). I really don't know if I'd want to live in that reality.
                      And you would do well to stay clear out of that dark, twisted world where the inhabitants are eking out their existence, but are not really living.
                      Last edited by Frankie's Market; January 20, 2011, 02:04 PM.
                      This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                        Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                        this lady has actually lived through the nightmare and truly KNOWS what the victim's survivors are going through. With all that said, this doesn't mean that everyone needs to agree with McCarthy's proposals. But casting aspersions on her sincerity and convictions on the issue,... sorry, that just doesn't fly.
                        Yes, I made a blanket statement about politicians which isn't fair to all of them.

                        In regards to Rep. McCarthy, I don't doubt the sincerity of her gun control politics. The question is will I, being a person on the fence about gun control, be able to respect the reasoning (not emotions) of her gun control politics and possibly vote in agreement with her?

                        (before I continue, let me say I know nothing about Rep. McCarthy nor have ever heard/read any statement of hers)

                        If she wants influence with the segment of the gun community that may be swayed, one thing she needs to do is competently speak their language. If she refers to a "semi-automatic" gun as "automatic", she will lose credibility. If asked what a "folding stock" is and she says "a rifle scope thingy?" people will laugh and tune her out. On the other hand, if she says "magazine" instead of "clip" she'll gain brownie points.

                        The second thing she should do is take an actual gun safety class (from a reputable instructor). She should prove she has the intelligence and discipline to handle a firearm safely. If she takes a self defense course, that would be even better.

                        Finally, I'd recommend she spend quality time with people who have used guns in self defense such as former officer Massad Ayoob, or Suzanna Gratia, who couldn't prevent her father from being shot because she left her gun in the car as per Texas law at the time:

                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ggg0LwhrH0

                        If a politician went through all this effort to sincerely see things from the other side of the issue and still wanted more gun control, I would totally respect that person and listen to what they have to say. If Congresswoman Gifford does this, she'd have even more influence.
                        Last edited by MyopicJoe; January 20, 2011, 05:24 PM.
                        "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                        "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                        "
                        Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                        Comment


                        • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                          Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                          The second thing she should do is take an actual gun safety class (from a reputable instructor). She should prove she has the intelligence and discipline to handle a firearm safely. If she takes a self defense course, that would be even better.
                          With all due respect, the decision on whether or not another person decides to take a gun safety class is a personal one for that person to make. In particular, I would think this kind of decision should be respected for someone whose spouse was killed by a gun.

                          If Carolyn McCarthy never wants to handle a gun under any circumstances (even in a training course) because it would re-open emotional scars from that horrific day nearly 18 years ago, then who is anyone to judge?

                          If that makes her less of a credible legislator when it comes to gun control in some quarters, then that's up to them. But those folks shouldn't expect their opinion on the matter to be a universal one. AFAIAC, Rep. McCarthy has nothing to prove to me.
                          This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                            Yup, she can do or not do what ever she wants, without having to explain herself. We live in a mostly free country.
                            "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                            "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                            "
                            Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                            Comment


                            • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                              As if this issue weren't bad enuf, we now hear about this gutless scum of a civil worker with our lives in his filthy hands http://azstarnet.com/news/local/govt...ff8a22210.html

                              That's the difference between libs and cons in a nutshell, libs (I should hope) would never consider such a dispicable thing, but you know there are those that applaud his crap.
                              Last edited by Ron Whitfield; February 18, 2011, 11:02 AM.
                              https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                              • Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

                                Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                                With all due respect, the decision on whether or not another person decides to take a gun safety class is a personal one for that person to make. In particular, I would think this kind of decision should be respected for someone whose spouse was killed by a gun.

                                If Carolyn McCarthy never wants to handle a gun under any circumstances (even in a training course) because it would re-open emotional scars from that horrific day nearly 18 years ago, then who is anyone to judge?

                                If that makes her less of a credible legislator when it comes to gun control in some quarters, then that's up to them. But those folks shouldn't expect their opinion on the matter to be a universal one. AFAIAC, Rep. McCarthy has nothing to prove to me.
                                One can be a credible legislator in spite of human foibles. Difference is to be expected in legislation, and I don't know any legislator who is only logical, and devoid of emotional input/output.

                                I'm with you on this one, Frankie. Even though I am pro-gun (probably for as many emotional reasons as logical ones) I would never judge someone based on the tragedies they have suffered.

                                Well stated.

                                Regarding Ron's judgement of the firefighter in the previous post to this one, I have to take the same stance. I can't judge him on his reaction to a disturbing scenario, where he opted out because he said he wouldn't feel he couldn't do his job properly under the circumstances.
                                Last edited by Kaonohi; February 18, 2011, 11:21 AM. Reason: ed is on no sidE
                                Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                                ~ ~
                                Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                                Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                                Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

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