Shameless marketing

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

I also learned to love a good spotted dick.

OMG! Trumped with a spotted dick.

There once was a fellow named Mick
Whose tackle had never been sick
Till he put it somewhere
Many others had dared
Now Mick has a fine spotted... pudding.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Shameless marketing

Writing "humour" or "colour" is a way of saying, indirectly, "I'm a Britisher."

Evolutionarily, language is the fastest human trait to change (except for perhaps adornment fashion ).
While here are obvious differences between English in various English speaking countries (USA, Britain, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand), obvious regional differences exist as well within countries.
For example: a twenty-five-cent piece in middle America is a quart-er, in New England it is a qua-ter (rhymes with water) and in the deep South it's a quaadduh, etc. I think much of the West coast (if memory serves) it's pronounced quad-er. (If this does not match your perception, please realize that pockets of pronunciation exist that don't match any overall district variation.)

And there are differences not only of spelling, but of terminology as well. We talked earlier about 'standard English vs. standardized English.' If you go to different regions you will encounter unfamiliar words for familiar objects (flip-flops vs. slippers vs. sandals).

The most important thing, when writing or speaking, is to communicate understanding, or to communicate in a way that is understood. Punctuation aids in understanding most times; unfortunately, most people don't understand it fully. Most likely this is because it is either poorly taught, or it is taught at the wrong developmental/cognitive stage in school. Grades one through eight are called "Grammar School" for a reason. But, how do you teach a pre-teen that semicolons separate independent but related clauses, or that commas are used to separate lists of items or dependent related clauses? It's hard enough to teach those grammar concepts to teens.

If you find any grammatical errors herein, please feel free to share them with me, as I am not perfect, but I am willing to learn.

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

But, how do you teach a pre-teen that semicolons separate independent but related clauses, or that commas are used to separate lists of items or dependent related clauses? It's hard enough to teach those grammar concepts to teens.

I'm unenthusiastic about that rule you want to teach. A simple instance of two independent clauses connected with "and" should use a semi-colon, according to the rule, but as we know, actually, a comma is used.

My own take on punctuation is that it is best used phonetically. A writer wants to convey a certain rhythm of speech and intonation, and tries to punctuate to achieve that end. He has to guess at what conventions his readers will understand, and edit in a way that will help readers guess how what he writes should be said.

I'm sorry to reach the conclusion that grammar is essentially irrelevant, being, myself, a great devotee of grammar. But I really think it is pronunciation that counts.

[scrivener]

Re: Shameless marketing

I'm unenthusiastic about that rule you want to teach. A simple instance of two independent clauses connected with "and" should use a semi-colon, according to the rule, but as we know, actually, a comma is used.

You're entitled to your opinion, of course, which I will leave alone. However, your assertion that "as we know...a comma is used" is wrong. Show me the deliberate use of such a comma in anything published professionally, please. Just about every such use is an error in editing, not a stylistic decision on the part of writer or editor.

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

However, your assertion that "as we know...a comma is used" is wrong. Show me the deliberate use of such a comma in anything published professionally, please.

Perhaps there is some miscommunication here. I think that what I am saying is quite obvious. If I can extend the rule to any coordinate conjunction ("and", "or", "but"), the very sentence of mine that you quoted is an instance of comma used between independent clauses:

A simple instance of two independent clauses connected with "and" should use a semi-colon, according to the rule, but as we know, actually, a comma is used.

The first independent clause is "A simple instance of two independent clauses connected with "and" should use a semi-colon, according to the rule", and the second independent clause is "But as we know, actually, a comma is used." The punctuation mark used before the coordinate conjunction "but" is a comma. Did you notice that? And looking at what I just wrote in this very paragraph, the punctuation mark used before "and the second independent clause ..." is a comma, not a semicolon.

The point I'm making here is so obvious, that I'm guessing the fault must be mine, for not expressing myself clearly.

[scrivener]

Re: Shameless marketing

Gotcha. My apologies. You're right: very few people use the semi-colon, and most people choose to use the conjunction with the comma, but once you add that conjunction to the second clause, does it not cease to be an independent clause?

I thought you were saying that people use just the comma.

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

... but once you add that conjunction to the second clause, does it not cease to be an independent clause?

That might be arguable. But on the face of it, one can have independent clauses beginning with a coordinate conjunction, as this sentence illustrates.

[anapuni808]

Re: Shameless marketing

........yawn..................

[scrivener]

Re: Shameless marketing

That might be arguable. But on the face of it, one can have independent clauses beginning with a coordinate conjunction, as this sentence illustrates.

I would argue that sentences beginning with conjunctions are 99% of the time not grammatically complete sentences, while they are certainly stylistically acceptable.

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

I would argue that sentences beginning with conjunctions are 99% of the time not grammatically complete sentences, while they are certainly stylistically acceptable.

I will look forward to that argument.

[SusieMisajon]

Re: Shameless marketing

"A writer wants to convey a certain rhythm of speech and intonation, and tries to punctuate to achieve that end. He has to guess at what conventions his readers will understand, and edit in a way that will help readers guess how what he writes should be said"


Oh, yeah...as I write about something, I'm forever muttering the words to myself, working to get them 'just right' so that the reader will believe themselves to be right here with me in person. Thinking about it, I guess that I use punctuation as a form of...um...body language...so that the reader can 'hear' and 'see' me while I'm describing what happened.

I wish I'd been better at grammar in school. In hindsight, I think I missed a class or two, about the time I was in fourth grade, and it sort of got fuzzy and blanked out after that, whenever the idea of grammar raised it's head.

Although I DO know what a noun is. I remember it as being a person, a place, or a thing. A Scottish friend of mine, an English major, once told me that she'd had an assignment to write a paper about why some nouns are more nounlike than others, which has intrigued me ever since.

Would that be like some animals being more equal than others?

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

A Scottish friend of mine, an English major, once told me that she'd had an assignment to write a paper about why some nouns are more nounlike than others, which has intrigued me ever since.

Would that be like some animals being more equal than others?

The classic paper arguing that membership in the noun category is a matter of degree is:
Ross, John R. (1972). The category squish: Endstation Hauptwort. In Paul M. Peranteau, Judith N. Levi, Gloria C. Phares, et al. (Eds.), Proceedings of the Eighth Regional Meeting of the Chicago Linguistic Society, Chicago Linguistic Society, University of Chicago, Chicago, Illinois, pp. 316–338.

This is also argued in James McCawley's book The Syntactic Phenomena of English, following Ross. For a time, a generalized version of the idea called "fuzzy grammar" had some popularity in linguistics.

In case you are interested, McCawley's book would be the best place to look. (McCawley also discusses the structure of coordinated clauses in English, though not their punctuation.)

[SusieMisajon]

Re: Shameless marketing

Thank you, Greg. After twenty years spent wondering about this, I'm going to go and have a look.

[matapule]

Re: Shameless marketing

dis disorientation on de engrish langrij gib matapule headach kine pain an' dats why pijion mo' bettah way say unnerstan talk story nuf said

(Someone please diagram that sentence)

[GregLee]

Re: Shameless marketing

Thank you, Greg. After twenty years spent wondering about this, I'm going to go and have a look.

I can't give a page reference in McCawley right now, since my wife is asleep in the room where the book is. But I found a revision of the Ross paper on line, called "Nouniness", here: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~jlawl.../Nouniness.pdf.