Florida Quran burning - 7 die

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Sounds like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. Religious belief is cited as justification for both good and bad deeds (both are countless, and heaven knows how you determine which is which or whether one sort exceeds the other). If the motivating factor for any deed is a religious belief, and that belief is propagated by official religious agents, then the religious institution does bear at least some share of the praise or blame assigned.

Interesting way of viewing it, and one that I suspect is shared by many.

So (as this thread is discussing) Pastor Jones burns a Quran - the only Christian organization that backs him on this action is his own - does that still make Christianity (in general) to blame for his actions, or for the follow-up actions of those who are responding in Afghanistan? Do Christians here on HT then bear some responsibility for those deaths overseas?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Not sure where to jump in here, I guess the end is as good as any other place.

Sounds like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth. (...) If the motivating factor for any deed is a religious belief, and that belief is propagated by official religious agents, then the religious institution does bear at least some share of the praise or blame assigned.

If you speak out of only one side of your mouth, does that mean you only get half the story?

I believe that except under extreme circumstances, each individual is alone responsible for their own actions. The extreme circumstances would be brainwashing (for which religion is frequently responsible), insanity, group coercion (as in military) or cognitive impairment (likely you may come up with more). In most instances, however, an individual has free choice - the ability to refuse.
The individual is responsible for saying 'yes' or not saying 'no.' The religion (or other institution) is responsible for promulgating anti-social actions in its name - i.e., for acting irresponsibly without regard for the rights of others.

does that still make Christianity (in general) to blame for his actions, or for the follow-up actions of those who are responding in Afghanistan?

If there's an opposite group that believes this is true, then I think we would have to define it as a warlike action - a position where a different group is blamed for your ills and deserves extermination - genocide? faithocide? whatever.
The individuals who follow that faith bear the responsibility of their actions. They can choose to leave that faith or try to change it or to continue to believe in something harmful - that is, unless they meet some of the criteria of irresponsibility I mentioned above.
Incidentally, I think that a significant percentage of religious followers are, at least to some extent, brainwashed - and since childhood - and that their immediate society reinforces that brainwashing.

Think back to the 60's and 70's. The young Americans who went to Canada rather than serve in Vietnam were in a minority. The majority that did go were coerced (or brainwashed) to believe they didn't have a choice.

The line between ensuring order in a society by instilling a certain measure of conformity (e.g., repressing anti-social behaviour) and nurturing individuality has always been a difficult one to draw, and it is constantly fluctuating.

[bjd392]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Blaming every Christian for one idiot pastor burning a book is about as dumb as...

Blaming every Muslim for hijacking 4 airplanes, and crashing them into buildings.

But that's what everyone does. Join the party.
I'm sure every molehill will become a mountain sooner or later.

[bjd392]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

The way to handle this would be for the families of all the victims of the resulting violence to sue the pastor, his church, and his parishioners for all the damages, the wrongful death, loss of consortium, physical injury, just bankrupt the guy and all his parishioners, keep them all in court for eternity, eternity in legal hell.

There are some Pan Am flight families still awaiting your solution.
There are some WTC families awaiting your solution.
There are some Pentagon families awaiting your solution.
There are some 9/11/01 flight victim families awaiting your solution...

Instead, let's take the cheap way out and go after some idiot pastor in Florida, because he's local and lawsuits are easier.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Incredible. I see a whole bunch of "Pastor Jones this" and "Pastor Jones that" condemnations. Yes, what the man said and did was utterly despicable. But in this entire thread, not a single mention of President Karzai for his role in fanning the flames of violence with ill-advised remarks to his people? And what about the Afghans who played an active role in inciting violence? Do folks here think that a 2-bit religious kook like Jones (with maybe a couple dozen followers) holds a greater responsibility for all the deaths in Afghanistan than the people who actually carried out the violence? Wow.

This New York Times editorial says it best.

Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, was one such enabler. He was a fool to allude to Jones’s stunt, performed before a few dozen acolytes. Why elevate this vile little deed and so foster mayhem?

Karzai is a man who will stop at nothing to disguise his weakness. His benefactors and underwriters — the West — are those he must scorn to survive.

The foolishness did not stop with Karzai: The imams of Mazar chose to use Friday prayers to stir up the crowd. As for the killing itself — whether by infiltrated Taliban insurgents or not — it was a heinous crime against innocent people and should be denounced throughout the Islamic world, in mosques and beyond. I’m still waiting.

Staffan de Mistura, the top U.N. envoy in Afghanistan, did not honor the dead by failing to denounce the perpetrators of the crime in a statement. He was right to call Jones’s Koran burning “insane and totally despicable;” he should have used the same words about the slaughter of his men. Not to do so was craven, a glaring omission.

Here's a metaphor from the world of sports: A coach preparing his team for the next game takes a newspaper quote from the opposing team's coach or star player out of context so as to make it appear that the guy is trash-talking,.... then posts that quote in a prominent place in the locker room. Now, why is the coach doing this? Is it because he's interested in the players knowing the truth? Or does he have an agenda, which is to psych up and motivate his own team to play that much harder? Well, it's no different from those looking for any way they can to instigate violence in Afghanistan.

"Terry Jones is a small time preacher with a couple dozen in his flock? Let's stir things up by elevating him to the status of Billy Graham, and see how that goes over in the mosque."

President Karzai? The NYT editorial adroitly points out his politically laced agenda in blowing the actions of a religious nut out of proportion.

Just to make it clear, I am not defending the message or the actions of Terry Jones and his congregation. But to anyone who saddle kooks like him with the mantle of responsibility for the violence in Afghanistan, just remember two things:

1) The instigators of violence would be having a good laugh if they were aware of what you were saying, and taking satisfaction over pulling the wool over your eyes.

2) All the attention that you're placing on Terry Jones and his Dove World Outreach Center merely feeds into their desire for any and all kinds of publicity. Those people are no different from the publicity hungry folks at the Westboro Baptist Church who go around the country to picket, hoping that yet another media outlet will send out a reporter to give them the airtime they so desperately crave.

You wanna "silence" folks like Terry Jones? Two words of advice. IGNORE HIM.

[salmoned]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Interesting way of viewing it, and one that I suspect is shared by many.

So (as this thread is discussing) Pastor Jones burns a Quran - the only Christian organization that backs him on this action is his own - does that still make Christianity (in general) to blame for his actions, or for the follow-up actions of those who are responding in Afghanistan? Do Christians here on HT then bear some responsibility for those deaths overseas?

Christianity (in general) is not an institution. You've misapplied what I've clearly written, don't aver false repercussions. What you are calling 'follow-up' actions are no such thing. They are actions by individuals and/or groups totally unrelated to Pastor Jones - not even the same religion! To pretend any causal relationship is an endorsement of the same sort of fantasy in which they are indulging.

Kaonohi, you'd better wake up to the reality that religions are all systems of brainwashing, and every religious believer presented with nonsensical requirements of salvation will strive to fulfill those requirements no matter how harmful to themselves or others because salvation is the ultimate good. If they won't, they are non-believers and either ostracized as such or joined among the vast majority of religious hypocrites.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Christianity (in general) is not an institution.

I would have to disagree.

You've misapplied what I've clearly written, don't aver false repercussions. What you are calling 'follow-up' actions are no such thing. They are actions by individuals and/or groups totally unrelated to Pastor Jones - not even the same religion! To pretend any causal relationship is an endorsement of the same sort of fantasy in which they are indulging.

They claim them to be in response; I take their explanation over yours in this case, sorry.

[Kalalau]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Regarding suing the pastor, the model was suing Tom Metzger, white supremacist, who encouraged violence against various minorities, victims' survivors sued and put Metzger and his organization out of business. I am all for suing everyone responsible for 9-11 and that would include President bush for not reading his intelligence reports predicting the attack, due diligence is required, negligence is not. Sue Libya for Lockerbie, I am all for that. Go for it, set the sharks on them. As the Metzger case proves, it can work.

[SusieMisajon]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

24 dead, and counting....

[salmoned]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

I would have to disagree.They claim them to be in response; I take their explanation over yours in this case, sorry.

Believe as you wish, your delusion is greater than theirs - irrational belief in irrational explanations of irrational actions. The sorrow is all mine for you.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

The way to handle this would be for the families of all the victims of the resulting violence to sue the pastor, his church, and his parishioners for all the damages, the wrongful death, loss of consortium, physical injury, just bankrupt the guy and all his parishioners, keep them all in court for eternity, eternity in legal hell.

Regarding suing the pastor, the model was suing Tom Metzger, white supremacist, who encouraged violence against various minorities, victims' survivors sued and put Metzger and his organization out of business. I am all for suing everyone responsible for 9-11 and that would include President bush for not reading his intelligence reports predicting the attack, due diligence is required, negligence is not. Sue Libya for Lockerbie, I am all for that. Go for it, set the sharks on them. As the Metzger case proves, it can work.

It is already working. Jones' organization is in debt and has seen a huge drop in donations in recent years. He was recently quoted as saying that they will probably have to leave the Gainesville area, and that Gainesville would probably be happy to be rid of him.

You wanna "silence" folks like Terry Jones? Two words of advice. IGNORE HIM.

Did you notice that the heaviest media attention came last year, when he first threatened to burn a Quran, then backed away? Had it not been for the Afghan reaction, the actual burning he finally did was relatively ignored.

The sorrow is all mine for you.

As you can imagine, your opinion concerns me so greatly.

[matapule]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Incredible. I see a whole bunch of "Pastor Jones this" and "Pastor Jones that" condemnations. Yes, what the man said and did was utterly despicable. But in this entire thread, not a single mention of President Karzai for his role in fanning the flames of violence with ill-advised remarks to his people? And what about the Afghans who played an active role in inciting violence? .

Of course, I don't condone what the religious zealots did in Afghanistan..

I don't know how much clearer you would like it said. Maybe saying it in Tongan or Spanish would be make it clearer. English can be imprecise at times.

As far as being "Incredible", I never claimed to be credible - liberal, yes, credible, no, and that makes me feel very gruntled.

[SusieMisajon]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

They're ALL guilty.

Now what?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Kaonohi, you'd better wake up to the reality that religions are all systems of brainwashing,

Funny, I thought that's what I said. I guess I didn't state it clearly enough.

When I said "The extreme circumstances would be brainwashing (for which religion is frequently responsible)," that was meant to indicate that other institutions are also responsible for brainwashing, not just religions.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Florida Quran burning - 7 die

Incredible. I see a whole bunch of "Pastor Jones this" and "Pastor Jones that" condemnations. Yes, what the man said and did was utterly despicable. But in this entire thread, not a single mention of President Karzai for his role in fanning the flames of violence with ill-advised remarks to his people? And what about the Afghans who played an active role in inciting violence?

Of course, I don't condone what the religeous zealots did in Afghanistan.

I don't know how much clearer you would like it said. Maybe saying it in Tongan or Spanish would be make it clearer. English can be imprecise at times.

Tongan, Spanish, Tagalog, Mandarin, etc. Go down the list of all 6,000+ languages if you want. Until I did so, nobody mentioned President Karzai in this thread for his role in stirring up, rather than quelling, violence in his country. That's the bottom line.