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Thread: Is college a bust?

  1. #1

    Default Is college a bust?

    Saddling kids with a lifetime of dept as schools price higher education out of reach for most is not the best way for society's future. For many, physically being in classes with 50+ students and little personal interaction with the teacher is a dead end, especially when it can often all be done online for cheap. Many say basically forcing kids into college for a sometimes worthless piece of paper is yet another scam. Where are the jobs? School's cost so much because many have too much bogus-need costs.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    School's cost so much because many have too much bogus-need costs.
    Such as, examples of what you are referring to? The concept of college being a "bust" and "dead end" is an interesting topic for you to introduce .... more details please.
    Now run along and play, but donít get into trouble.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    I'm funding a nursing student in the Philippines. It's less than half the cost of my B.S. back in the 70s. My buddy went to the Military Medical School - got paid to get his MD. There are viable options, even for professional degrees.

    Yet, I'd never advise higher education for unmotivated students, even were it free.
    Last edited by salmoned; May 30th, 2011 at 08:19 PM.
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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    For many, physically being in classes with 50+ students and little personal interaction with the teacher is a dead end, especially when it can often all be done online for cheap. Many say basically forcing kids into college for a sometimes worthless piece of paper is yet another scam. Where are the jobs? .
    I would like to respond to this statement in the context as a former university professor.

    Personal interaction with the professor is always available and encouraged for those students who need it and want it, from my experience. Unfortunately, most students do not avail themselves of this important and valuable service. My students were encouraged to be self-motivated, self-reliant, and self-responsible. I was not going to "force" students to see me during my office hours and spoon feed them information. If students didn't want one-on-one help, then that was their choice.

    AND

    I do not perceive the primary reason for a higher education is to get a
    "good job." In my view, the primary purpose of a higher education is to make one a more self-reliant and well rounded individual by learning analytical skills and research techniques, exposure to different ways of thinking, and introduction to endless possibilities for personal growth.

    FINALLY

    My higher education degrees are not "worthless pieces of paper." They are some of my most prized and proudest possessions.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amati View Post
    Such as, examples of what you are referring to?
    It's wide ranging, from waste, to hidden costs, to blatant costs like our own UH head not living in the mansion provided but tacking on extra expense for her home of choice, to state-of-the-art climbing walls http://www.whitman.edu/content/outdo.../rock-climbing

    It's a subject I've long entertained and it seems to be a country-wide topic now that the serious pinch is on. To get a better and broader idea of the controversy than I can express here, google - college waste of time money.

    Per mata:
    Personal interaction with the professor is always available for those who want it.
    ~I do not perceive the primary reason for a higher education is to get a
    "good job."
    ~My higher education degrees are not "worthless pieces of paper."

    Nowday's that's not always so true, classroom counts can now number in hundreds.

    The vast majority of kids thinking of higher ed., I'm hearing them say to that... HUH?!

    I submit - http://blogs.ajc.com/mike-luckovich/...ege-graduates/
    Another I saw this week had grads being handed unemployment applications instead of diplomas.

    Sure, there are still viable reasons for college and many needs for actually being there, but for many others a diploma can be had in the comfort of pajamas with a computer, for others it's not even needed. Broadcasting for example, a huge and diverse industry that can pay well and has upward mobility, CAN be had with 0 education. And in the case of our current hate media, way less, some aren't even human.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Sure, there are still viable reasons for college and many needs for actually being there, but for many others a diploma can be had in the comfort of pajamas with a computer, for others it's not even needed. Broadcasting for example, a huge and diverse industry that can pay well and has upward mobility, CAN be had with 0 education. And in the case of our current hate media, way less, some aren't even human.
    You continue to frame your argument in the context of the ONLY purpose for higher education is to get a "good" job. Unfortunately, there are many who agree with you. If that is your only purpose for a higher education, then my recommendation is not to do it, not even on-line correspondence school. My experience is that those who came to my institution for that purpose, generally did not do well in school, often blaming the instructor for their poor grades. They were easy to spot. I submit that there are much more viable reasons for higher education than job prospects.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    u sed...
    the primary purpose of a higher education is to make one a more self-reliant and well rounded individual by learning analytical skills and research techniques, exposure to different ways of thinking, and introduction to endless possibilities for personal growth.
    While those are certainly worthy aspects, what 18 yr. old is going to spend 50+K and x # of years in search of them, or convince daddy to allow it? Those should come with the overall college ed experience, no? But please expound, it's valuable perspective/commentary.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    While those are certainly worthy aspects, what 18 yr. old is going to spend 50+K and x # of years in search of them, or convince daddy to allow it? Those should come with the overall college ed experience, no? But please expound, it's valuable perspective/commentary.
    Ahhhhh, pull up a chair Ron and let's explore the universe together. A MIND IS A CANDLE TO BE LIT, NOT A BUCKET TO BE FILLED.

    In my experience (which does not make it a universal truth but merely a perspective to be pondered) the most successful students are those who come to higher education with no idea of what they want to do with the rest of their lives. Yes, some do enter higher education with specific job goals and matriculate successfully, but those 18 y.o.'s who don't have that job goal are in the majority. The idea is that you spend a couple of years in a liberal arts program sampling various courses. Students come away with distinct opinions about various academic disciplines (I hate math, I love botany, history puts me to sleep, I never knew you could do that with a computer......for example). Then the student fills the last two years developing their major. I have seen students graduating with a degree in engineering and a minor in interior decoration or a degree in political science and a minor in architectural history. The possibilities are endless! Pursuit of their academic interests becomes a passion not simply a means to get a job. Often many of them become so consumed in their passion they will continue on to graduate school. If I may offer an example from my own background, consider this. In high school, I had a classmate whose name is Bob. He was an average student at best, screwing around and not paying attention. His goal was to get through high school the easiest way possible and if was possible to take 8 periods of "study hall", he would have done it. I lost track of him after high school graduation until 30 years later. I was shocked to learn that he lived about 30 miles from me and he was now Dr. Bob with a PHD in Physics and a rocket scientist, a real rocket scientist! During higher education, someone or something had lit his candle......a little late, but it now burns brightly! Physics is his passion! Ron, think about all the permutations that are possible.

    Students enter fields they would have never considered in high school. They not only graduate from college with a degree in a specific field but interests in other fields. This interest in other fields often acts as a safety valve when they learn that the job they got after graduation is not really what they wanted or liked and so they activate that "safety valve" and enter enter into their other passion(s). Matapule's uaifi is a perfect example of that scenario.

    As far as cost, I can't speak for Hawai'i, but higher education can be very affordable in California through the Community College and State University systems and you will get a darn good education if you have an open mind (Dr. Bob went that route before getting scholarships to graduate school). In fact, I know many people who work 40 hours a week in an interim job, carry a full academic load, and graduate on time with honors and no debt and no loans (ahem.......matapule kicks a can.......well darn it my candle was burning with a passionate, white hot heat; it was more like a bonfire! ).

    So, Ron, there is a brief introduction on my perspective on why college is not a bust. I have some kindling and a couple of matches here, care to give it a try?
    Last edited by matapule; May 31st, 2011 at 02:58 PM.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Good stuff. I've agreed with your overall points the whole time, but need to explore the many sides of this issue that I've recently seen come into quasi-popularity even tho I've entertained it for decades. I hardly expect anyone entering college from HS to have their goals fully outlined and set in stone, altho many do. I sure couldn't have and still couldn't. I think parents are culpable in regimenting kids into focusing on one path as a means to quicker success without diversions and distractions because they usually are footing the bill. The colleges probably have $ and enrollment quota incentive to promote this. But 'they' say the average person goes thru 6 careers in the average lifetime, so there's plenty of room for changes once they're free from that parental control, and some become so entranced with school being a student becomes their career. Our likes/desires/perspectives constantly evolve so the broad stroke of learning does have much merit, but it often meets resistance early on, we're trained to pick a career and laser in on only that.
    To ramble further would take me above my 6th grade education nut, and I'd never pretend to be deep into the particulars of high ed, but we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them. College sports is another part of the battle where schoolin' isn't the priority, there is lot's of $ tossed around and corruption is fairly rampant. I think we'll be seeing great changes in the whole scene quite soon, the bubble is about to burst and things will be evolving, hopefully in student's of all class levels favor. Some of the strongest minds come from middle and even poverty levels, and we've missed out on too much of that by not making cheap but fine ed available.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    The colleges probably have $ and enrollment quota incentive to promote this.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. Many private institutions have endowments they try to reach, but I'm not sure what you mean by "quotas."

    But 'they' say the average person goes thru 6 careers in the average lifetime,
    The statistics can be interpreted in a number of different ways.

    we're trained to pick a career and laser in on only that.
    Who trains that? We're only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves.

    but we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them.
    Perhaps that is true of a few private institutions, but on the whole, higher education is geared toward the best interests of the student and giving them the best education possible within the financial limitations of the institution.

    Some of the strongest minds come from middle and even poverty levels, and we've missed out on too much of that by not making cheap but fine ed available.
    From my experience, strong and weak minds know no socio-economic boundaries.

    Inexpensive and fine education are not mutually exclusive and is still abundantly available.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by "quotas."

    The statistics can be interpreted in a number of different ways.

    Who trains that? We're only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves.

    Perhaps true of private institutions, but higher ed is geared toward the best interests of the student

    strong and weak minds know no socio-economic boundaries.

    Inexpensive/fine education are not mutually exclusive and still abundant.
    They have to fill seats/'the bank'

    On average, it's true

    Parents/family/teachers/society

    On the face of it, but it's become a people mill

    See "some"
    Status plays too a big role, just getting a great education is often down the list of priorities

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    Red face Re: Is college a bust?

    Spend Your College Tuition on Being Mentored and Starting a Company
    After three years of sitting next to folks at $35K a year for $100K, you give your child $50K to start a company and youíre in for $150K. Thatís probably $100K less than you would spend on a private school all in.

    If someone wants me to mentor this kid for $25K for nine months, I would donate the money to charity and let their kid literally sit next to me and come to meetings.

    It would be better than spending money on college, right?

    Maybe someone could make a website called Mentormykid.com and auction off slots for charity to the highest bidder? This wouldnít just be for startups or Internet companies. What if your aspiring journalist, artist or filmmaker could pay for a mentorship? What would it be worth to have your kid sit next to Steven Spielberg or J.J. Abrams for a year: $100K, $250K? Oh yes, it would be.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    They have to fill seats/'the bank'
    That may be what you think and perceive, but I don't know of any institution of higher education that operates on that business model.

    Parents/family/teachers/society
    I disagree. We are responsible for ourselves. It is time society stops blaming someone else for their own condition. We are only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves. Thank about that, Ron. Expand your horizons.

    On the face of it, but it's become a people mill
    "On the face of it" is not necessarily an accurate assessment.

    Status plays too a big role, just getting a great education is often down the list of priorities
    I agree. Expensive, private college education is not necessarily the best education

    Quote Originally Posted by pzarquon View Post
    It would be better than spending money on college, right?
    I disagree. High cost "internships" are not a well rounded education. I find that I am repeating myself frequently in this thread. The primary purpose of higher education is not to land a high paying job. The purpose of higher education is to create a well rounded individual who is adaptable in a rapidly changing world, one who is capable of seeing the forest, not just the trees.

    One of the reasons for the problems in American Society today is that too many people don't understand the purpose of higher education. They go to college to increase their future bankroll. It is all about materialism rather than education. We wind up with graduates who are one dimensional. I vehemently disagree with the hypothesis proposed in the link posted by Ryan.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    I don't know of any institution of higher education that operates on that business model.

    We are responsible for ourselves, only limited by the limitations we place on ourselves.
    Ron, expand your horizons.

    "On the face of it" is not necessarily an accurate assessment.
    If they don't bring in enuf $ to operate, what happens? It's a business.

    You can't pin that soley on a kid, many have been regimed towards fitting in the hole cut for them. Many havn't even heard of what you're saying.
    My childhood horizons were the broadest and wildest possible, especially for a po'boy. I lived the dream life as a kid with my surrounding cast, the only negs of that were that it's already all been done, so now what do I do?

    Big schools are simply too big and not focused enuf on the rudiments of education, too spread out.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    If they don't bring in enuf $ to operate, what happens? It's a business.
    Ron, they work off of alumnae endowments. In most cases, students don't nearly pay for the true cost of their education. Colleges, especially private colleges work off of alumnae contributions. I'm a contributor and if you have a college education, I hope you are too.

    You can't pin that soley on a kid, many have been regimed towards fitting in the hole cut for them. Many havn't even heard of what you're saying.
    And therein lies the crux of the problem!

    My childhood horizons were the broadest and wildest possible, especially for a po'boy. I lived the dream life as a kid with my surrounding cast, the only negs of that were that it's already all been done, so now what do I do?
    Ron, is your glass half full or half empty? You have yet to begin! Light your fire!

    Big schools are simply too big and not focused enuf on the rudiments of education, too spread out.
    Some yes, but many no.
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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Mata, you missed my 6th grade remark? When they said algebra, I said see ya, brah! After that I majored in truancy and surfing, with a minor in ditching killer cops from Signal Hill and dodging rocks/bottles in Watts. Then sex, drugs, and Rock'n'Roll took over.

    At 20, I moved to Hawaii, Land of Fire! Trust me, my glass runneth over.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    When they said algebra, I said see ya, brah!.
    It is okay that math does not light your fire. You can tell that English grammar and spelling does not light my fire! Hey I'm a matapule, a talking chief not a spelling chief! But I can show you some things about algebra that are fascinating.
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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    I have been following this thread with interest. I'm sure it is no surprise that I agree wholeheartedly with Matapule as to the purpose of higher ed. That being said however, the cost factor and the perceived reward of a high paying job are completely out of balance whether or not we are talking about attending a large public university or a small private college. We can argue until we are blue in the face as to pubic vs private, where funding is coming from and so on but the fact remains that there is an imbalance between how many are getting college degrees and the number of jobs available at that level.

    This may not be a popular or politically correct view, but my experience has shown that there are way too many students getting bachelor's degrees, essentially devaluing the degree itself. Way back in the early 1900's, the majority of students graduated from the 8th grade - period. My grandmother once told me that of all the kids she graduated 8th grade with, only about 1/3 went on to graduate high school. She was only 1 of 4 that continued onto college (and the only woman). This was normal for the time. Those with an 8th grade education worked for the city, or the factory or the farm. Someone with a high school degree was considered very employable, obtaining jobs in banks and offices. Someone with a BA or BS was extremely rare, making the degree itself extremely valuable.

    In the interim, more and more students began to go to high school, and the high school degree became devalued - forcing more students to continue on as far as possible. Now the mentality is that you can't even begin to get a good job without some college. In order to accommodate the increase in student body, more and larger colleges sprung up. Suddenly huge numbers of students were graduating with bachelor's degrees. Because of the sheer numbers, the jobs that these graduates are getting are the same ones that only a short while ago required a high school diploma. Those who want the higher paying and/or higher prestige jobs must continue onto even higher education to obtain a master's degree or PhD.

    I think we are at a crossroads. We want all citizens to be educated. But what does that mean? Can we educate the masses to the extent that the city worker has the same education as the bank president or college professor? Should we? Especially with today's price tags? It is a double edged sword. I don't have the answers. For me, the drive for education was an unstoppable desire to learn - anything. But that is me. With all my education I still am very aware that, in reality, I am highly qualified for......... nothing.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by acousticlady View Post
    We can argue until we are blue in the face as to pubic vs private, ...
    Or, perhaps until we are red in the face, whichever comes first.
    Greg

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by acousticlady View Post
    ... as to pubic vs private ...
    Shouldn't both be rather private?

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    I've always wondered what's been causing the skyrocketing cost of a college education. Inflation? Some folks say the situation is similar to the real estate bubble. Ridiculously easy to obtain loans allowed a lot of people to buy homes, thereby increasing prices. Ridiculously easy to obtain student loans allows everyone to go to college, thereby increasing tuition.

    This link has a bit of sensationalism, but it's interesting (junk?) food for thought. This hour long "documentary" is by the same folks.

    Matapule: I agree a university has good potential to create a well rounded person. It concentrates a wide variety of people and (hopefully critical) ways of thinking into a relatively small piece of geography. You just have to decide how much debt you want to go into to become "well rounded" and whether there are other ways to do it. It's great that the UC system subsidizes a lot of education, but isn't California in big financial trouble? Is their welfare state sustainable?

    Acoustic Lady: Like the U.S. dollar, the value of a college degree is being debased. When everyone has a degree, your degree has less value (in the job market). I've seen a lot of people in college who have no business being there. Of course, it would look bad if schools flunked them, so they all get to pass. Their presence in the classroom lowers everyone's intelligence.

    I've always questioned the (job) value of my technical degree. I got a typical tech job when I graduated and I would've been lucky if I used even 5% of the knowledge I was forced to learn. Now if we say the knowledge itself isn't as important as the critical thinking skills...well it seems my tech jobs didn't require all that much critical thinking. I remember being bored senseless by the robotic nature of the work.

    In the end, college felt like an expensive, time-consuming weed out process that allowed HR departments to mindless hire people. My tech B.S. degree mainly trained me to be an academic, not so much to be a working professional.

    Was college useful in non tangible ways? Yes. Was it worth it? Not too bad, for just $1,400/yr. The UH kids are paying 4x as much now a days...and let's not even talk about the cost of text books.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    In regards to the video link I posted, one thing I don't like is how much they hype the importance of silver and gold at the end of it. It's fine to diversify your wealth by putting a reasonable portion of it into metal, but don't go whole hog into it the way the video suggests. Some folks say gold is going through a pricing bubble right now. I'm sure gold dealers would love to see people panic and buy over-priced gold. The ending of this "documentary" sticks of an infomertial. Are they warning you about one scam, so that you will run to theirs?

    The best lies are mixed with truth. Listen to the video with a grain of salt and try separate the wheat from the chaff.


    And I think they're over selling the idea of an online college; much like virtual, online business meetings. Sure online education will grow, but some things need to be taught face to face. Some intangible things are lost when communicating over a computer.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    To ramble further would take me above my 6th grade education nut, and I'd never pretend to be deep into the particulars of high ed, but we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them.
    BINGO!!!! You've hit upon a dirty truth that many people are blind to, or are in denial of.

    Washington Univ. Law professor and former Hawaii resident Brian Tamanaha expounds upon this in an article about how law schools are producing too many JDs in this country and how professors with any degree of social conscience should not avert their eyes from this reality. He even goes as far as calling it a law school scam.

    The law graduates posting on these sites know the score. They know that law schools pad their employment figures—96% employed—by counting as “employed” any job at all, legal or non-legal, including part time jobs, including unemployed graduates hired by the school as research assistants (or by excluding unemployed graduates “not currently seeking” a job, or by excluding graduates who do not supply employment information). They know that the gaudy salary numbers advertised on the career services page—“average starting salary $125,000 private full time employment”—are actually calculated based upon only about 25% of the graduating class (although you can’t easily figure this out from the information provided by the schools). They know all this because they know of too many classmates who didn’t get jobs or who got low paying jobs—the numbers don’t jibe with their first hand knowledge.

    They know the score now. But they didn’t know it when they first applied to law school.

    ...................

    It is their dream to become a lawyer—we provide them with the opportunity and what they make of it is up to them. Besides, a law degree is valuable even if you don’t get a job as a lawyer. It improves your reasoning ability. It opens all kinds of doors.

    When annual tuition was $10,000 to $15,000, these rationalizations had enough truth, or at least plausibility, to hold up. When annual tuition reaches $30,000 to $40,0000, however, it begins to sound hollow. Students at many law schools are putting out a huge amount of money for meager opportunities.

    ......................

    It is open knowledge that many law schools present employment information in a misleading fashion, or don’t disclose it at all. This lack of candor on the part of law schools is itself a telling indication that there is something problematic about the product we are selling to prospective students.
    Thanks for having the guts to tell it like it is, Brian. A law school or, indeed, any other college that provides misleading employment info is engaging in a scam. And any faculty member who works for such an institution has to share the responsibility for being part of that scam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    College sports is another part of the battle where schoolin' isn't the priority, there is lot's of $ tossed around and corruption is fairly rampant.
    Agreed. While the idea of athletic scholarships started off with the noblest of intentions, the win-at-all-costs mentality turned NCAA Division I sports into a farce. Student-athletes??? There's way too many semi-pro football & basketball players masquerading as college students. The NFL and NBA should take a page from MLB and form their own minor league system to develop young prospects instead of using colleges as farm teams.
    Last edited by Frankie's Market; June 2nd, 2011 at 11:30 PM.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Quote Originally Posted by acousticlady View Post
    but the fact remains that there is an imbalance between how many are getting college degrees and the number of jobs available at that level.
    Two things: First, in my opinion, the current labor market is an attempt by big business in the US to force the cost of labor down by limiting job expansion. Second, too many jobs are being sent "overseas" where the labor market is willing to work for less than Americans.

    This may not be a popular or politically correct view, but my experience has shown that there are way too many students getting bachelor's degrees, essentially devaluing the degree itself.
    There are too many people getting bachelor's degrees for the wrong reasons - merely using higher education as a glorified "trade school." The purpose of higher education is to expand mind, soul, and curiosity. That is the message I'm trying to send in this thread.

    Those with an 8th grade education worked for the city, or the factory or the farm.
    And that is still true today. The majority of the people in those industries do not have a college degree. And that is okay, those are honorable professions. Higher education is not for everyone.

    Those who want the higher paying and/or higher prestige jobs must continue onto even higher education to obtain a master's degree or PhD.
    You are concentrating on the trees while overlooking the forest. Expand your thinking.

    But that is me. With all my education I still am very aware that, in reality, I am highly qualified for......... nothing.
    And there we disagree! Ms Lady you de-value yourself! YOU are QUALIFIED to be an intelligent, thoughtful, curious individual as demonstrated in your post. Explore the universe with confidence. Our self-education should never end.

    For those who are following this thread, matapule is attempting to give an introductory university level seminar in philosophy. For some of you, kind of interesting, huh? Does philosophy light your candle?

    Quote Originally Posted by MyopicJoe View Post
    Ridiculously easy to obtain student loans allows everyone to go to college, thereby increasing tuition.
    How about the option of working full time and taking a full academic load; no loan needed. Yes, it is a lot of work but it is possible. Most students today, in my opinion, are lazy. Higher education for them is just a place to party, try to get a high paying job, and put off the debt until "some other time." These are people that will go through life bored.

    You just have to decide how much debt you want to go into to become "well rounded" and whether there are other ways to do it.
    How about no debt to become a well rounded person? It is easily achievable and available almost anywhere, but you will have to bust usi!

    Acoustic Lady: Like the U.S. dollar, the value of a college degree is being debased. When everyone has a degree, your degree has less value (in the job market).
    Here we go again, back to the job market! If that's all you are interested in, then higher education is probably not for you (using "you" in the general sense).

    I've seen a lot of people in college who have no business being there. Of course, it would look bad if schools flunked them, so they all get to pass. Their presence in the classroom lowers everyone's intelligence.
    You think you've seen them?! I've seen them in spades! Matapule had no problem with doing a student a favor in giving them a wake up call by "flunking them."

    Matapule is a little embarrassed to tell you that he was kicked out of one college class (geography) for the day for being "disruptive." It was true, I deserved it. It was a wake up call. I went back to that class two days later with a whole new attitude!!!!!

    I've always questioned the (job) value of my technical degree. I got a typical tech job when I graduated and I would've been lucky if I used even 5% of the knowledge I was forced to learn. Now if we say the knowledge itself isn't as important as the critical thinking skills...well it seems my tech jobs didn't require all that much critical thinking. I remember being bored senseless by the robotic nature of the work.
    Joe, did you go the school with the philosophy that your mind was just a bucket to be filled with "knowledge you were forced to learn?" With that motivation, of course, you were only able to use 5% of the knowledge you "learned." That wasn't knowledge! That was just the detritus of life. Did anything you learned in school light your fire - turn you on? Your chosen profession (which may change several times inn your life) should be anything but boring! If your job was boring, you were in the wrong field. Work should be a place you want to get to 30 minutes early and leave 30 minutes late. Did you have safety net to fall back on? Joe, even if you are now retired, it is never to late to find your passion in life, to light your candle.

    In the end, college felt like an expensive, time-consuming weed out process that allowed HR departments to mindless hire people. My tech B.S. degree mainly trained me to be an academic, not so much to be a working professional.
    Then perhaps you were too young and immature to go to college. I don't mean that in pejorative. I went back to higher education 10 years after my first degree, when I was better able to put 10 years of real life experience into following my passion.

    Was college useful in non tangible ways? Yes. .
    Maybe you would like to expound and expand on that. Maybe your glass is half full. We need to get Ron back into this discussion.
    Last edited by matapule; June 3rd, 2011 at 03:08 AM.
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  25. #25

    Default Re: Is college a bust?

    Glad to see some further input, and I'd rather sit back and watch greater minds explore the subject, as we've now enjoyed. But, education can only take you so far in the real world and schools don't provide much real world meat and potatoes. My few ed years outside of the basics were largely pointless, and being a big brained academic can leave you vulnerabe to the many dangers outside the classroom. Both need more focus starting youngt from the elementary years, with that, there'd be much less need for high ed. Let's remember that in 1900, an 8th grade education had you being quite smart on multi levels, they didn't mess around back then, you learned! Plus, kids developed rural smarts/abilities from general hands-on life that would serve them well in the entire real world. Today's kids know how to play digital games like champs, but too often, not much else. We've lost our base intelligence.

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