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  • #16
    Re: Is college a bust?

    Mata, you missed my 6th grade remark? When they said algebra, I said see ya, brah! After that I majored in truancy and surfing, with a minor in ditching killer cops from Signal Hill and dodging rocks/bottles in Watts. Then sex, drugs, and Rock'n'Roll took over.

    At 20, I moved to Hawaii, Land of Fire! Trust me, my glass runneth over.
    https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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    • #17
      Re: Is college a bust?

      Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
      When they said algebra, I said see ya, brah!.
      It is okay that math does not light your fire. You can tell that English grammar and spelling does not light my fire! Hey I'm a matapule, a talking chief not a spelling chief! But I can show you some things about algebra that are fascinating.
      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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      • #18
        Re: Is college a bust?

        I have been following this thread with interest. I'm sure it is no surprise that I agree wholeheartedly with Matapule as to the purpose of higher ed. That being said however, the cost factor and the perceived reward of a high paying job are completely out of balance whether or not we are talking about attending a large public university or a small private college. We can argue until we are blue in the face as to pubic vs private, where funding is coming from and so on but the fact remains that there is an imbalance between how many are getting college degrees and the number of jobs available at that level.

        This may not be a popular or politically correct view, but my experience has shown that there are way too many students getting bachelor's degrees, essentially devaluing the degree itself. Way back in the early 1900's, the majority of students graduated from the 8th grade - period. My grandmother once told me that of all the kids she graduated 8th grade with, only about 1/3 went on to graduate high school. She was only 1 of 4 that continued onto college (and the only woman). This was normal for the time. Those with an 8th grade education worked for the city, or the factory or the farm. Someone with a high school degree was considered very employable, obtaining jobs in banks and offices. Someone with a BA or BS was extremely rare, making the degree itself extremely valuable.

        In the interim, more and more students began to go to high school, and the high school degree became devalued - forcing more students to continue on as far as possible. Now the mentality is that you can't even begin to get a good job without some college. In order to accommodate the increase in student body, more and larger colleges sprung up. Suddenly huge numbers of students were graduating with bachelor's degrees. Because of the sheer numbers, the jobs that these graduates are getting are the same ones that only a short while ago required a high school diploma. Those who want the higher paying and/or higher prestige jobs must continue onto even higher education to obtain a master's degree or PhD.

        I think we are at a crossroads. We want all citizens to be educated. But what does that mean? Can we educate the masses to the extent that the city worker has the same education as the bank president or college professor? Should we? Especially with today's price tags? It is a double edged sword. I don't have the answers. For me, the drive for education was an unstoppable desire to learn - anything. But that is me. With all my education I still am very aware that, in reality, I am highly qualified for......... nothing.

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        • #19
          Re: Is college a bust?

          Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
          We can argue until we are blue in the face as to pubic vs private, ...
          Or, perhaps until we are red in the face, whichever comes first.
          Greg

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          • #20
            Re: Is college a bust?

            Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
            ... as to pubic vs private ...
            Shouldn't both be rather private?

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            • #21
              Re: Is college a bust?

              I've always wondered what's been causing the skyrocketing cost of a college education. Inflation? Some folks say the situation is similar to the real estate bubble. Ridiculously easy to obtain loans allowed a lot of people to buy homes, thereby increasing prices. Ridiculously easy to obtain student loans allows everyone to go to college, thereby increasing tuition.

              This link has a bit of sensationalism, but it's interesting (junk?) food for thought. This hour long "documentary" is by the same folks.

              Matapule: I agree a university has good potential to create a well rounded person. It concentrates a wide variety of people and (hopefully critical) ways of thinking into a relatively small piece of geography. You just have to decide how much debt you want to go into to become "well rounded" and whether there are other ways to do it. It's great that the UC system subsidizes a lot of education, but isn't California in big financial trouble? Is their welfare state sustainable?

              Acoustic Lady: Like the U.S. dollar, the value of a college degree is being debased. When everyone has a degree, your degree has less value (in the job market). I've seen a lot of people in college who have no business being there. Of course, it would look bad if schools flunked them, so they all get to pass. Their presence in the classroom lowers everyone's intelligence.

              I've always questioned the (job) value of my technical degree. I got a typical tech job when I graduated and I would've been lucky if I used even 5% of the knowledge I was forced to learn. Now if we say the knowledge itself isn't as important as the critical thinking skills...well it seems my tech jobs didn't require all that much critical thinking. I remember being bored senseless by the robotic nature of the work.

              In the end, college felt like an expensive, time-consuming weed out process that allowed HR departments to mindless hire people. My tech B.S. degree mainly trained me to be an academic, not so much to be a working professional.

              Was college useful in non tangible ways? Yes. Was it worth it? Not too bad, for just $1,400/yr. The UH kids are paying 4x as much now a days...and let's not even talk about the cost of text books.
              "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
              "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
              "
              Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

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              • #22
                Re: Is college a bust?

                In regards to the video link I posted, one thing I don't like is how much they hype the importance of silver and gold at the end of it. It's fine to diversify your wealth by putting a reasonable portion of it into metal, but don't go whole hog into it the way the video suggests. Some folks say gold is going through a pricing bubble right now. I'm sure gold dealers would love to see people panic and buy over-priced gold. The ending of this "documentary" sticks of an infomertial. Are they warning you about one scam, so that you will run to theirs?

                The best lies are mixed with truth. Listen to the video with a grain of salt and try separate the wheat from the chaff.


                And I think they're over selling the idea of an online college; much like virtual, online business meetings. Sure online education will grow, but some things need to be taught face to face. Some intangible things are lost when communicating over a computer.
                "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                "
                Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

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                • #23
                  Re: Is college a bust?

                  Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                  To ramble further would take me above my 6th grade education nut, and I'd never pretend to be deep into the particulars of high ed, but we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them.
                  BINGO!!!! You've hit upon a dirty truth that many people are blind to, or are in denial of.

                  Washington Univ. Law professor and former Hawaii resident Brian Tamanaha expounds upon this in an article about how law schools are producing too many JDs in this country and how professors with any degree of social conscience should not avert their eyes from this reality. He even goes as far as calling it a law school scam.

                  The law graduates posting on these sites know the score. They know that law schools pad their employment figures—96% employed—by counting as “employed” any job at all, legal or non-legal, including part time jobs, including unemployed graduates hired by the school as research assistants (or by excluding unemployed graduates “not currently seeking” a job, or by excluding graduates who do not supply employment information). They know that the gaudy salary numbers advertised on the career services page—“average starting salary $125,000 private full time employment”—are actually calculated based upon only about 25% of the graduating class (although you can’t easily figure this out from the information provided by the schools). They know all this because they know of too many classmates who didn’t get jobs or who got low paying jobs—the numbers don’t jibe with their first hand knowledge.

                  They know the score now. But they didn’t know it when they first applied to law school.

                  ...................

                  It is their dream to become a lawyer—we provide them with the opportunity and what they make of it is up to them. Besides, a law degree is valuable even if you don’t get a job as a lawyer. It improves your reasoning ability. It opens all kinds of doors.

                  When annual tuition was $10,000 to $15,000, these rationalizations had enough truth, or at least plausibility, to hold up. When annual tuition reaches $30,000 to $40,0000, however, it begins to sound hollow. Students at many law schools are putting out a huge amount of money for meager opportunities.

                  ......................

                  It is open knowledge that many law schools present employment information in a misleading fashion, or don’t disclose it at all. This lack of candor on the part of law schools is itself a telling indication that there is something problematic about the product we are selling to prospective students.
                  Thanks for having the guts to tell it like it is, Brian. A law school or, indeed, any other college that provides misleading employment info is engaging in a scam. And any faculty member who works for such an institution has to share the responsibility for being part of that scam.

                  Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                  College sports is another part of the battle where schoolin' isn't the priority, there is lot's of $ tossed around and corruption is fairly rampant.
                  Agreed. While the idea of athletic scholarships started off with the noblest of intentions, the win-at-all-costs mentality turned NCAA Division I sports into a farce. Student-athletes??? There's way too many semi-pro football & basketball players masquerading as college students. The NFL and NBA should take a page from MLB and form their own minor league system to develop young prospects instead of using colleges as farm teams.
                  Last edited by Frankie's Market; June 2, 2011, 10:30 PM.
                  This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Is college a bust?

                    Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
                    but the fact remains that there is an imbalance between how many are getting college degrees and the number of jobs available at that level.
                    Two things: First, in my opinion, the current labor market is an attempt by big business in the US to force the cost of labor down by limiting job expansion. Second, too many jobs are being sent "overseas" where the labor market is willing to work for less than Americans.

                    This may not be a popular or politically correct view, but my experience has shown that there are way too many students getting bachelor's degrees, essentially devaluing the degree itself.
                    There are too many people getting bachelor's degrees for the wrong reasons - merely using higher education as a glorified "trade school." The purpose of higher education is to expand mind, soul, and curiosity. That is the message I'm trying to send in this thread.

                    Those with an 8th grade education worked for the city, or the factory or the farm.
                    And that is still true today. The majority of the people in those industries do not have a college degree. And that is okay, those are honorable professions. Higher education is not for everyone.

                    Those who want the higher paying and/or higher prestige jobs must continue onto even higher education to obtain a master's degree or PhD.
                    You are concentrating on the trees while overlooking the forest. Expand your thinking.

                    But that is me. With all my education I still am very aware that, in reality, I am highly qualified for......... nothing.
                    And there we disagree! Ms Lady you de-value yourself! YOU are QUALIFIED to be an intelligent, thoughtful, curious individual as demonstrated in your post. Explore the universe with confidence. Our self-education should never end.

                    For those who are following this thread, matapule is attempting to give an introductory university level seminar in philosophy. For some of you, kind of interesting, huh? Does philosophy light your candle?

                    Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                    Ridiculously easy to obtain student loans allows everyone to go to college, thereby increasing tuition.
                    How about the option of working full time and taking a full academic load; no loan needed. Yes, it is a lot of work but it is possible. Most students today, in my opinion, are lazy. Higher education for them is just a place to party, try to get a high paying job, and put off the debt until "some other time." These are people that will go through life bored.

                    You just have to decide how much debt you want to go into to become "well rounded" and whether there are other ways to do it.
                    How about no debt to become a well rounded person? It is easily achievable and available almost anywhere, but you will have to bust usi!

                    Acoustic Lady: Like the U.S. dollar, the value of a college degree is being debased. When everyone has a degree, your degree has less value (in the job market).
                    Here we go again, back to the job market! If that's all you are interested in, then higher education is probably not for you (using "you" in the general sense).

                    I've seen a lot of people in college who have no business being there. Of course, it would look bad if schools flunked them, so they all get to pass. Their presence in the classroom lowers everyone's intelligence.
                    You think you've seen them?! I've seen them in spades! Matapule had no problem with doing a student a favor in giving them a wake up call by "flunking them."

                    Matapule is a little embarrassed to tell you that he was kicked out of one college class (geography) for the day for being "disruptive." It was true, I deserved it. It was a wake up call. I went back to that class two days later with a whole new attitude!!!!!

                    I've always questioned the (job) value of my technical degree. I got a typical tech job when I graduated and I would've been lucky if I used even 5% of the knowledge I was forced to learn. Now if we say the knowledge itself isn't as important as the critical thinking skills...well it seems my tech jobs didn't require all that much critical thinking. I remember being bored senseless by the robotic nature of the work.
                    Joe, did you go the school with the philosophy that your mind was just a bucket to be filled with "knowledge you were forced to learn?" With that motivation, of course, you were only able to use 5% of the knowledge you "learned." That wasn't knowledge! That was just the detritus of life. Did anything you learned in school light your fire - turn you on? Your chosen profession (which may change several times inn your life) should be anything but boring! If your job was boring, you were in the wrong field. Work should be a place you want to get to 30 minutes early and leave 30 minutes late. Did you have safety net to fall back on? Joe, even if you are now retired, it is never to late to find your passion in life, to light your candle.

                    In the end, college felt like an expensive, time-consuming weed out process that allowed HR departments to mindless hire people. My tech B.S. degree mainly trained me to be an academic, not so much to be a working professional.
                    Then perhaps you were too young and immature to go to college. I don't mean that in pejorative. I went back to higher education 10 years after my first degree, when I was better able to put 10 years of real life experience into following my passion.

                    Was college useful in non tangible ways? Yes. .
                    Maybe you would like to expound and expand on that. Maybe your glass is half full. We need to get Ron back into this discussion.
                    Last edited by matapule; June 3, 2011, 02:08 AM.
                    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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                    • #25
                      Re: Is college a bust?

                      Glad to see some further input, and I'd rather sit back and watch greater minds explore the subject, as we've now enjoyed. But, education can only take you so far in the real world and schools don't provide much real world meat and potatoes. My few ed years outside of the basics were largely pointless, and being a big brained academic can leave you vulnerabe to the many dangers outside the classroom. Both need more focus starting youngt from the elementary years, with that, there'd be much less need for high ed. Let's remember that in 1900, an 8th grade education had you being quite smart on multi levels, they didn't mess around back then, you learned! Plus, kids developed rural smarts/abilities from general hands-on life that would serve them well in the entire real world. Today's kids know how to play digital games like champs, but too often, not much else. We've lost our base intelligence.
                      https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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                      • #26
                        Re: Is college a bust?

                        Originally posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
                        ...we know that colleges have monetary agendas that aren't always in students best interests and generating the big bux is big business for them. College sports is another part of the battle where schoolin' isn't the priority, there is lot's of $ tossed around and corruption is fairly rampant. I think we'll be seeing great changes in the whole scene quite soon, the bubble is about to burst and things will be evolving, hopefully in student's of all class levels favor. Some of the strongest minds come from middle and even poverty levels, and we've missed out on too much of that by not making cheap but fine ed available.
                        Coincidentally, just yesterday finished reading Susan Coll's "Acceptance," a satire on the whole college admissions process. An amusing read, btw.

                        Colleges cost money-->parents are under pressure to foot the bill, have spoiled their kids by giving them everything they want, and want their kids to do well-->pressure to get into the "right" school and the "right job" for bragging rights, perhaps a little bit in part to justify all the spoiling they did to their kids and so they can justify their parenting paying off (and all the money they're spending)?

                        Doesn't change the fact that once you graduate, nobody really cares how well you did, just that you got your degree and are WILLING TO WORK, not just sit at your desk sneaking looks at your FB page. Doesn't seem like all college kids are ready accept that, especially if things came easily to them and they didn't have to work for anything. Then they throw tantrums when they enter the "real world" and everything isn't handed to them anymore. Then, no surprise, they end up in their parent's basements being coddled again. Not saying that all kids are like that, just that it seems many aren't learning life skills or how to persevere or how to handle rejection.

                        Experience still carries a lot of weight too--so if you work your way up, you can often times still be successful, even without that college degree--and for many I think that means being in the right job at the right time in the right place. (Pardon my corruption of that famous Hawaiian saying.)

                        I do think it's sad that there's so much pressure put on kids to go to college, Yes, it was an invaluable experience for me personally, but I also know it's not the route for everyone. People learn differently, not everyone's cut out for the college track--or perhaps it's not the right thing for them right out of high school.

                        I was from an Asian household (not as extreme as "Tiger Mother," perhaps, but plenty of pressure nonetheless!). I remember hiding my handwriting papers in first grade because even then I was only allowed to get A's. (I was a lefty, cut me a break!) Indian kids are supposed to only be doctors, engineers, or in the computing fields. If I even attempted to think of entertaining a career in something "artsy," my parents would have had a heart attack, and as an Asian kid, I was raised to please my parents and do what they want. I love where I am in life right now, but I think a small part of me still wonders what would have happened if I had majored in English and followed that career path instead of what I do now.

                        Who knows, maybe down the line I will find out!

                        As Americans, we are taught that to be successful means to go to college, and it also seems to come with a fear that taking time off from your job to actually enjoy your life means you aren't serious about your career. And then the cycle continues into the next generation...

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                        • #27
                          Re: Is college a bust?

                          Chaos, very nice analysis. Good job. Lots of "meat" in your dissertation. I think you can see the forest. A lot to ponder in what you say.

                          Chaos, it is never too late to start a second career, even on a part time basis. Follow your dream.
                          Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                          People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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                          • #28
                            Re: Is college a bust?

                            Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
                            as to pubic vs private,
                            Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                            Shouldn't both be rather private?
                            OMG

                            (had to delete your emoticons to include mine)

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                            • #29
                              Re: Is college a bust?

                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              There are too many people getting bachelor's degrees for the wrong reasons - merely using higher education as a glorified "trade school." The purpose of higher education is to expand mind, soul, and curiosity. That is the message I'm trying to send in this thread.
                              I believe in this idea so much, I have dedicated my life to it.


                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              And that is still true today. The majority of the people in those industries do not have a college degree. And that is okay, those are honorable professions. Higher education is not for everyone.
                              Yes, you are correct in the sense of a traditional bachelor's degree, especially a liberal arts degree. But more and more, these individuals are being pressed into attending a community college or trade school - also leaving them strapped with student loans (see below) Wasn't there something recently about Obama wanting to see every student graduate at least community college? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_233030.html (gotta love google)


                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              And there we disagree! Ms Lady you de-value yourself! YOU are QUALIFIED to be an intelligent, thoughtful, curious individual as demonstrated in your post. Explore the universe with confidence. Our self-education should never end.
                              Please don't take that comment as a sign of insecurity or lack of self-confidence on my part in any way. My "problem" in reality is probably more to the other extreme. But, WRT what makes one "employable", degrees in physics and music theory do not "qualify" me for much outside of academia - but it specifically works for the role you are touting as the purpose of higher ed.


                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              How about the option of working full time and taking a full academic load; no loan needed. Yes, it is a lot of work but it is possible. Most students today, in my opinion, are lazy. Higher education for them is just a place to party, try to get a high paying job, and put off the debt until "some other time." These are people that will go through life bored.
                              Sad, but true. I too, paid my own way and came out debt free. Got a full ride to grad school too. And for the record, I also worked AND raised a family while doing it. But we are of a different mind set (or generation maybe?) I think AbsolutChaos has it right in the paragraph regarding how parents are raising the kids these days and pressuring them to go to the right school, get the right job, etc.


                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              Here we go again, back to the job market! If that's all you are interested in, then higher education is probably not for you (using "you" in the general sense).
                              I think the job market keeps coming up because it is, for many, at the heart of the problem of whether college is a worthwhile endeavor. Which goes back to what I was saying originally that too many are going to college for the wrong reasons (hence devaluing the degree).

                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              You think you've seen them?! I've seen them in spades! Matapule had no problem with doing a student a favor in giving them a wake up call by "flunking them."
                              You don't have to flunk them all the time. I find a "C" does amazing things. Again, it goes back to the individual. I, too, have pulled the "flunk" card on more than one occasion.

                              Originally posted by matapule View Post
                              Matapule is a little embarrassed to tell you that he was kicked out of one college class (geography) for the day for being "disruptive." It was true, I deserved it. It was a wake up call. I went back to that class two days later with a whole new attitude!!!!!
                              ha, ha

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                              • #30
                                Re: Is college a bust?

                                Originally posted by acousticlady View Post
                                parents are raising the kids these days and pressuring them to go to the right school, get the right job, etc.
                                It's been going on for decades and has long contributed to and exacerbated the existing problems.
                                https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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