Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

[Amati]

Re: Road rage & multiple lawbreaker victims

This brings us back to the thread title, which I think is incorrect.

Yes it is, because details now say that the attacker did not know his victims nor had he had in previous contact with them (ie it was not a road rage incident, but rather a random attack).

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

It wouldn't have helped this poor woman/family,

Sez you.

I think a ban on semi-automatic weapons might have given that 54 year old woman enough time to react and either evade or run over that gunman,... if that sorry bastard didn't have rapid fire capability. (It was another driver that Toby Stangel fired at first before he quickly got his fatal shots in at Tammy Nguyen.)

We've had this discussion before when it came to the shooting of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and that poor 9 year old girl. Nothing more for me to add to this particular topic than this: pro-gun advocates who won't even budge an inch when it comes to limiting the firepower on legal arms have just got more blood on their hands.

[tutusue]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

[...]
I think a ban on semi-automatic weapons might have given that 54 year old woman enough time to react and either evade or run over that gunman,... if that sorry bastard didn't have rapid fire capability. (It was another driver that Toby Stangel fired at first before he quickly got his fatal shots in at Tammy Nguyen.)[...]

I'm not sure Tammy would've had time, FM, regardless of the type of gun. It's hard to anticipate how one would react in that situation but, from personal experience, a mom's first instinct is to protect and shield her child. I heard several news reports (different stations) and it sounded like she and her daughter were stopped at a red light with at least one other car behind her. From the sound of it Stangel was stopped behind those cars when he got out, approached the cars from the rear (I don't know which side but I'll guess driver's) and began shooting. I remember thinking how vulnerable I'd be in that situation, with someone approaching from behind. I'm not fixated on my rear view mirrors. I have the radio on and am not anticipating any event much less one as horrible as this one. Heading home, this mom and daughter could've easily had the windows up and been having a conversation. If alone, and with a tiny bit more time, would I have had the presence of mind to jam on the accelerator? Or, would I have ducked? Damn...I don't know and I hope I never have to find out.

This is all just conjecture, I know, but I thought about this a lot over the week-end because my daughter was in town. If I had the time I most likely would've tried to shove my daughter to the floor and fall on top of her. I still swing my arm in front of her if I have to stop suddenly...and she's 44!!! The instinct never goes away!

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

He also shot at two motorcycle cops, so the guy's a** is grass fer sure.

No kidding. Last I read, he missed the cop but hit the bike; close one. I'm surprised he was arrested without incident. Maybe he ran out of ammunition...or he didn't want to die /smirk

I heard the (Kapahulu area) shots last night shortly after getting home.

Man, I slept through the craziness.

The woman who died had 10 children. This story continues to get even more heartbreaking.

Yeah, pretty sad. From the bits and pieces I read, I'm guessing this is what happened:

The 21-year old victim was first in line at the red light, then the mother/daughter, and finally the perp. Perp gets out and walks past the mother/daughter who are wondering what's going on. Perp shoots at the guy in front, who either ducks down or hits the gas and blows through the red light. The mother is either too shocked to drive away (I mean how many of us Hawaii folks are prepared to respond to a shooting in front of us?), or if the front car is still there she might have been boxed in (though a witness said he saw her van up on the curb).

Looks like the lenient state judge syndrome strikes again.

Pretty amazing. I wish I knew someone in the judicial system, who could give me insights into their decision making process. Hindsight is 20/20, but I'm sure there are still improvements that could be made.

The before and after photo of him shows a meth user.

Yeah, he looks very gaunt during that perp walk.

Did the gun wake up and decide to go ultra nuts in public, did the gun not do it's job in protecting the public by allowing this shit to violate probation and still walk the streets?

I feel there's too many guns out there. 'Nuf said.

We've had this discussion before

Yeah. I was gonna post another list of pro's and con's about gun ownership, but meh, we've hashed this before.



On another note, I met someone who actually knew the slain mother. Her life story is a bit sad. I can't go into the details, but there's some speculation about why she was out so late and if true, it adds further sadness to the tragedy. It just goes to show life isn't always fair or kind

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

It's hard to anticipate how one would react in that situation but, from personal experience, a mom's first instinct is to protect and shield her child.

Very honest observation, Sue. Hawaii is a fairly peaceful place; how to survive a shooting is not a scenario that even enters our minds.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Road rage & multiple lawbreaker victims

This brings us back to the thread title, which I think is incorrect.

Yeah, I wasn't happy with my original title and was gonna change it before creating the thread, but some weirdness occurred and it got created when I didn't intend it to. Since you can't edit the title (I believe), I have to live with it.

Yes it is, because details now say that the attacker did not know his victims nor had he had in previous contact with them (ie it was not a road rage incident, but rather a random attack).

I did take liberties with calling it "road rage" (don't hire me for a journalism job). I imagined him being unstable, having some driving incident with the guy in the front of the line, and then snapping when the red light gave him the opportunity.

This is further speculation, but if it was a random attack, then why not shoot the mother as he walked by her car first? I feel he singled out the guy in front. Once he was done with him, he had already crossed the line and is high on adrenaline and went after targets of opportunity. Once again, I assume the order of the cars was 21yo guy, mother, perp.

I'll go scouring the news updates to see if they have any more details, though I don't imagine they'll come out until the court hearing.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

An interview with the first guy shot at:

That's when he noticed a man in a BWM pull up right behind his Toyota 4Runner SUV.

...

And that's when I put my head down. And that's when he took another two shots again. The gun shots were to the point where it was pa, pa pa. And even though I was wearing a hat, I could feel it, feel the bullets going right over my head. I could feel the shards of glass going on top of my cap," said the 21-year-old Aiea man.

Uninjured and freaked out, he sped off onto the freeway looking for help.

When he returned to the scene, he found out a van had also been shot at.

"I didn't see that car. I was already gone by the time she got to that intersection," said the 21-year-old Aiea man.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

I'm not sure Tammy would've had time, FM, regardless of the type of gun.

You're absolutely right. What I said is all conjecture and speculation. But then again, it is no more so than those 2nd amendment drones who state that someone who was armed in the situation would have put a stop to Stangel's rampage, right then and there. How are their speculations any more definitive than mine's?

At the very least, as I said, Ms. Nguyen might had more time to react. (Note the qualifier.) Maybe not. But as anyone who has been involved in a situation like this and has lived to tell about it will say, even a split-second moment can make all the difference between life and death.

[tutusue]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

[...]What I said is all conjecture and speculation.[...]

Me, too!

[Menehune Man]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

I feel there's too many guns out there. 'Nuf said.

I wasn't complete in previous post...

It's all the illegal, undocumented guns 'out there' that are the problem.
More than just from house break-ins I believe. Where from and how are they getting through?

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

Thanks for the thread title edit, Helen

More than just from house break-ins I believe. Where from and how are they getting through?

I assume mostly through checked luggage and moving containers. Most laws aren't easily enforced. The government depends on fear and self-enforcement.

If a legal gun owner from the mainland moves here and for various reasons decides they don't want to (or don't realize they have to) register their firearm and it gets stolen, they won't report it. And of course, criminals will sneak things in.


On another note, I think the 21yo's reaction to being shot at is a good lesson in self defense:

1) he was aware enough to see the attacker approaching and notice the gun

2) his first reaction was natural and immediate: he ducked down, giving himself some measure of protection behind the car door and reducing the attacker's ability to see/aim at him (video game training perhaps? /smirk)

3) he hit the gas and extracted himself from the danger


(1) is the most important. It gave him time to react. (3) was the action most responsible for keeping him alive, BUT he needed to do (2) first, which allowed him to do (3).

When people carry pepper spray, a knife, a gun, a flashlight, or the run-away-button, they have a natural tendency to go straight for it when hit by a surprise attack, but that can be a big mistake. If your attacker has surprised you, you're already behind the curve. You don't have time to deploy a weapon, which is very slow (compared to the attacker who is already using their weapon).

You need to take advantage of your flinch response and use your hands/body to immediately deal with the attack. You have to do something that will buy you time, so you can deploy your weapon (or run away). If you're lucky, you can simply dodge the attack and if the attacker lets himself get off balance, you can just bolt. Otherwise, you'll have tussle with him until you shove him off balance, strike and stun him, etc.

Distance = time.

Shoving can give you distance. Putting an obstacle between you and the attacker gives you "distance". Awareness buys you distance.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

The before and after photo of him shows a meth user.

Absolutely.





Don't think anyone can blame Stangel's parents for the despicable actions of their son. But I do find it off-putting that they are not coming back from their Disneyland vacation after something like this has happened back home.

http://www.kitv.com/news/28140490/detail.html

Prasser acknowledged some church members have asked why Pastor Stangel has not returned from California.

"We asked him not to come back at this time. They can’t do anything for Toby at this point. None of us really can," Prasser said.

Yeah, obviously, there's not much they can do for their son now. But there are family members of the victims who are shocked and grieving. Being that Mike Stagel is a pastor, I wonder why this supposed man of God can't bring himself to offer personal condolences to those whose lives have been changed forever from the events of Saturday.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

Most meth users look much worse than he does, is there a basis of fact per his meth use? Could be any substance abuse, and are we sure that's even him in the before shot? Some real wiggle room there. Nor do we know what his father may have actually done per the victim's family, just what is said locally.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

Most meth users look much worse than he does, is there a basis of fact per his meth use? Could be any substance abuse, and are we sure that's even him in the before shot?

"Worse" is, of course, relative. Some people do end up looking like real-life zombies after doing ice or crystal meth for years. Perhaps Stangel didn't yet physically bottom-out like those meth-heads you're thinking about. But he was headed down that same path,..... until his shooting spree intervened.

Judging by the fact that you're having trouble believing that the 2 pics I posted were of one and the same person,.... I rest my case that Stangel was doing some hard-core stuff.

Nor do we know what his father may have actually done per the victim's family, just what is said locally.

You can speculate about what you think Pastor Stangel might have done behind the scenes. I'm just stickin' to the facts. The man hasn't come back from his vacation in Califonia and he hasn't offered any condolences in person to the victims' families.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

Judging by the fact that you're having trouble believing that the 2 pics I posted were of one and the same person,.... I rest my case that Stangel was doing some hard-core stuff.

Pastor Stangel hasn't offered any condolences in person to the victims' families.

It doesn't significantly alter the shape of one's entire skull, nor change the hairline.

Doesn't mean he hasn't already reached out.

Case not finalized.