Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

It doesn't significantly alter the shape of one's entire skull, nor change the hairline.

Ron, the pics that I posted were from KHON's website. It's the same person.

There's no mystery here.... except for the one in your mind. Have fun unravelling this puzzle all by your lonesome.

One more thing: I do encourage you to learn more about the symptoms of meth addiction. According to treatment4addiction.com, meth use can lead to hair loss.

Changes in skin and hair appearance: A meth addict has the uncontrollable need to pick at their skin. This may look similar to an extreme case of acne, often leaving them with open sores on their face. Methamphetamine addicts often complain about having crawling skin, a disorder known as formication. Hair loss or breakage frequently occurs as well.

Ron, if you want to argue with me for the sake of arguing on this board, then whatever. But seriously, you need to educate yourself and get the straight dope on methamphetamine. The sooner you're able to properly recognize the symptoms of meth use, the better your chances of saving the life of a loved one. It's up to you, man.

[tutusue]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

It doesn't significantly alter the shape of one's entire skull, nor change the hairline.

The difference I see in those 2 photos is weight loss. As an unrelated example, someone with a normally elongated facial bone structure who is taking prednisone will get a moon shaped face with the resultant weight gain. The skull shape does not change. The face shape does. Ditto for normal weight gain and loss but not as extreme. The close-up of Stangel cuts off his front hair line and chin so IDing the hairline is probably only a guess, at best. Both photos look like the same person to me with the latest showing Stangel a bit older and gaunter.

Doesn't mean he hasn't already reached out.

This is true. I doubt the Stangel family is enjoying a vacation now. They'd taken their grandkids to Disneyland. There may be more to the "We asked him not to come back at this time" story than any of us know right now.

Case not finalized.

Not even close.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

The difference I see in those 2 photos is weight loss. As an unrelated example, someone with a normally elongated facial bone structure who is taking prednisone will get a moon shaped face with the resultant weight gain. The skull shape does not change. The face shape does. Ditto for normal weight gain and loss but not as extreme. The close-up of Stangel cuts off his front hair line and chin so IDing the hairline is probably only a guess, at best. Both photos look like the same person to me with the latest showing Stangel a bit older and gaunter.

This is true. I doubt the Stangel family is enjoying a vacation now. They'd taken their grandkids to Disneyland. There may be more to the "We asked him not to come back at this time" story than any of us know right now.

Not even close.

My impression too, sue. (or is that too too sue?)
Weight loss often accompanies drug use, but that's not the ONLY reason.

If I were Rev. Stangel, I'd keep my distance, as well (maybe I'm chicken?)

[TuNnL]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

I do find it off-putting that they are not coming back from their Disneyland vacation after something like this has happened back home.

Prayer Service Held For Victims Of Random Shootings, Suspect

Prasser acknowledged some church members have asked why Pastor Stangel has not returned from California.

"We asked him not to come back at this time. They can’t do anything for Toby at this point. None of us really can," Prasser said.

Yeah, obviously, there's not much they can do for their son now. But there are family members of the victims who are shocked and grieving. Being that Mike Stagel is a pastor, I wonder why this supposed man of God can't bring himself to offer personal condolences to those whose lives have been changed forever from the events of Saturday.

I have to agree, although the Honolulu Star-Advertiser is reporting today that Stangel and his wife were attending a pastor’s conference in Murietta. As you can see from the link, the article doesn’t say whether or not this was an earlier commitment, or a hastily arranged detour in light of recent events.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

Ron, if you want to argue with me for the sake of arguing on this board, then whatever. But seriously, you need to educate yourself on methamphetamine.

I was strung out on meth before I was a teenager, ran with that crowd, saw the many downs and enjoyed it until it caught up with me, so I'm not totally ignorant on first and second hand experience. For now I'll run with the popular assumption here they are the same guy, not into arguing for the sake of arguing. But I notice things, and what you can see of his hairline, there are distinct dissimilarities. It's a mute point now anyway.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

But I do find it off-putting that they are not coming back from their Disneyland vacation after something like this has happened back home.

I agree "on vacation at Disneyland" doesn't sound good. If I would hazard a guess, I'd say they're staying for the kids. As Sue mentioned, I doubt the adults are enjoying it very much. Though I know nothing about their family, I could imagine the sister saying, "I'm not gonna let my brother spoil my family's life." It also costs money to change flight plans (dunno how much slack the airlines would cut them). I suppose the pastor could come home by himself, but that would leave the daughter to manage the kids on her own.

Any post-shooting pictures of the family having a ball would look bad.

I was strung out on meth before I was a teenager

I'm glad you've escaped meth. I hear it's crazy addictive?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Road rage & multiple gun victims

I have to agree, although the Honolulu Star-Advertiser is reporting today that Stangel and his wife were attending a pastor’s conference in Murietta. As you can see from the link, the article doesn’t say whether or not this was an earlier commitment, or a hastily arranged detour in light of recent events.

I'm not so cynical as to think that Mike Stangel would "add" a pastor's conference to his itinerary, in the face of such a tragedy.

Still, he's going to have to face the victim's family members, sooner or later. As a senior pastor of such a large congregation in the community, how could he not?

As it was with today's court hearing, it seemed a little strange that several members of the North Shore church, as well as Toby's girlfriend and her mother, was there..... but not Toby's own family.

Whatever the outcome of this trial and no matter what kind of rehabilitation Toby receives, there's no way that they can ever let this guy free into society again. He's gonna have to spend the remainder of his Earthly life behind bars. The only thing his family can help him with now is a spritual rehabilitation and redemption for the afterlife, or whatever their church believes in.

And I don't think that is going to happen with his folks being MIA like this.

[Amati]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

The fact that the parents/family are still on the mainland is THEIR BUSINESS. The parents/family have not committed a crime, yet some people seem to think they should be following some sort of unwritten protocol of proper behavior. Perhaps they have a powerful support system on the mainland of family and friends that are helping them sort through what must be a terribly tragic situation to face as a parent - to be learning that your child has committed a murder, almost killing 2 more, in addition to the grief they have expressed feeling about the victims and the victims' families.

Who are we to judge about where they have decided to find the most supportive environment?

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

The fact that the parents/family are still on the mainland is THEIR BUSINESS.

If they were ordinary citizens in the community, then yeah. I would agree. But I hold church leaders to a higher standard of conduct and accountability.

This is Hawaii Threads. So sue me for expressing my opinions on the matter.

[Amati]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

If they were ordinary citizens in the community, then yeah. I would agree. But I hold church leaders to a higher standard of conduct and accountability.

What a self-righteousness [holier-than-thou] attitude. Someone in the clergy does not live up to your "higher standard of conduct and accountability" while they are grieving? I've been around for many a year, and have never seen or heard of these supposed "higher standards and accountability" that are imposed on clergy during grief. Please clue us all in on where we can find information on these standards, especially related to the location that the clergy must be in during grieving.... please tell us where these "standard" are, besides in your pathetic and hateful mind.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

I think it's fair to say that, as individuals, we all have our own personal "standards" that we wish to see others follow, particularly those individuals who have chosen paths of influence over other citizens: politicians, educators and religious leaders would certainly have a high place on my list; journalists and "celebrities" (of varying definitions) a bit lower down, but still there.

If someone has the benefit of being in a position where many look to them for guidance, I would sincerely hope that they would take that responsibility seriously in their behavior - and that we would also understand that they are fallible humans, as are we all.

This is not meant as a personal indictment of the members of Pastor Stangel's family or their actions; I am not familiar enough with the details of their decisions to do so. Rather, it is meant to say that I understand FM's statement of his own personal values as regards the behavior of clergy; it is simply his opinion that they should be held to a higher standard than others.

I happen to agree with him in this particular realm, but even if I did not, I think castigating him so strongly for holding a personal opinion about it is a bit harsh.

(So says I - a poster also known for the occasional toe-dip into the "holier-than-thou" pool. )

[Amati]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

I happen to agree with him in this particular realm, but even if I did not, I think castigating him so strongly for holding a personal opinion about it is a bit harsh.(So says I - a poster also known for the occasional toe-dip into the "holier-than-thou" pool. )

All right, I can go with that (ie "too harsh" of words). I'd edit if I still could, to lighten the language.

Meanwhile, I have not changed my opinion that chastising a grieving family for not .... coming back to Hawaii fast enough because the father is clergy.... is that the ridiculous complaint? .... is indeed self-righteousness.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

Thanks for understanding what I meant, Amati.

As for opinions to what the family should or should not be doing - I'll leave that debate to the rest of you, as I really don't feel informed on that front.

[TuNnL]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

I have to agree with Frankie and Leo here. If we take a position of authority like a politician, judge or religious minister so lightly, why don’t we ALL become one, two or better yet, all three of these simultaneously? It would be a nice feather our cap — something to brag about. No, the reason why this group are among the chosen few is because these positions are ones that are held to a higher standard and level of accountability.

We expect a politician to exhibit a very high moral standard. If not, we run them out of office — even before their term is finished. Case in point — Bill Clinton. The guy was the most important man in the country and was making critical decisions about war and our national economy not so long ago — yet he was impeached over an inconsequential matter of oral sex, and nearly got thrown out of office.

We expect a judge — whose pregnant wife was killed by a drunk driver — to to be fair and impartial and administer blind justice in the courtroom — even though the defendant, a complete stranger (who somehow strangely physically resembles the same guy who killed the judge’s wife), is accused of a hit-and-run DUI.

We expect a religious minister to cut short his vacation to Disneyland, to be there for ANY of us during our darkest hour, our time of need, to provide precious counsel and guidance for us, and to bless those who may have been severely affected by serious and grave actions that authorities have accused us of — particularly if that minister is our own flesh and blood.

Maybe some of us have higher expectations than others.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Shooting rampage on 06/03/11

Who are we to judge about where they have decided to find the most supportive environment?

I think you have demonstrated here why I have you on my friend's list and why I trust your judgement.
You are right, 100%. We have no right to judge them, no idea what they are going through.