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Thread: The Troy Davis Execution

  1. #1

    Default The Troy Davis Execution

    Georgia executed Troy Davis tonight. It lights up all the anti death penalty circuits for me. And yet also tonight Texas executed one of the miserable excuses for a human being who dragged the Black guy behind their truck and I am fine with that execution. In fact if everybody with that kind of hateful racism just dropped dead it would be a much better world. So I am subject to the very emotional reaction, I call it blood lust, that I object to in others. A human failing, hypocrisy.

    My arguments against the death penalty summed up: its too much power to trust the gvt. with, mistakes happen, gvts. always get carried away with power, once you start executing people how can you ever stop, it appeals to the basest human emotions, and by example it endorses killing people to settle a score 'justly'.

  2. #2
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    Thumbs down Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    I will never support killing, regardless of who, why, how, or what. Imo, there is absolutely no reasoning that will ever make killing ok, no matter what!
    ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

  3. #3

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    I know you are right. And yet emotionally I do react positively to the removal of that murderous Texas bigot from the human family. And what about the killing of Osama bin Laden? Justice, or revenge? It sure made a lot of people happy, and that happiness with killing people is a problem.

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    Lightbulb Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    Call me sentimental, but if the majority of humanity subscribed to this lunacy, we would have resorted to cannibalism by now. War and and genocide have been one of only four effective forms of population control since the dawn of man. The other three being disease, natural disasters, and China’s “one child” policy.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    I knew a prof who said basically that, that biology influenced the race to kill off surplus males with wars and among some tribes lots of human sacrifice to make gods happy--good old religion taken as seriously by the Aztecs as modern religions are today. He said religious views, economics, political ideology were all just window dressing to this biological drive to eliminate surplus males. An interesting theory. Economics comes pretty close to fitting his theory. Yet the death penalty eliminates hardly any one, and their sperm can be taken off the market by keeping the owner in prison until very old age. War is almost always started by old men and always kills the younger ones, like a tom cat killing another tom's kittens. These primal drives are very weird, weird manifestations. Giving over as much control in human life as we can to rationality seems a much safer course than doing anything to encourage those primal killing drives.

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    The USA is still number two in state sanctioned executions, heck I guess we are trying to catch up with the Chin dynasty.

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    Lightbulb Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    My arguments against the death penalty summed up: its too much power to trust the gvt. with, mistakes happen, gvts. always get carried away with power, once you start executing people how can you ever stop, it appeals to the basest human emotions, and by example it endorses killing people to settle a score 'justly'.
    I’ll buy your argument about the government. Mistrust of the government is one of the hallmarks of us libertarians, Kalalau. In fact, the 2008 libertarian nominee for President summed up the Troy Davis case quite succinctly in a story featured on CNN:

    Ruling to execute Troy Davis violates core principles

    September 20, 2011 | By Bob Barr, Special to CNN

    Davis was convicted in 1991 of the 1989 murder of Savannah police officer Mark MacPhail. But the trial included no physical evidence to support his conviction. The prosecution produced no murder weapon, no DNA evidence and no surveillance tapes.

    He was sentenced to death on the basis of nine so-called eyewitnesses, who testified in the trial. Seven of those witnesses, however, have since recanted or materially changed their stories. The jury, for instance, relied on two people who did not witness the crime but who testified that Davis had confessed to the shooting. Since then, both have said they were lying.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    This was all about preserving a fatally flawed system, but the arrogance of Georgia state officials, like most, say's they are never wrong and will not reexamine, no matter what. If The Pope, a former US President, former hangin' judges having asked for a stay of exescution and almost all the eye witnesses recanting can't even slow down the runaway death train on a case so wrought with major flaws, then this country's turkey ass is overcooked and headed for the dump. Especially so when you see crowds cheering wildly for the deaths of others at con debates. Again, lucky we live Hawaii!

  9. #9
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    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    I think you're viewing the whole issue from the wrong angle. It's simply a question of acceptable loss. There's no possibility of 'perfect justice'. If your concern is about preventing wrongful deaths, the justice system is one of the last places to waste your resources, based on any scale of result vs. effort. We could spend a trillion dollars on the issue and make no significant progress. As well, is incarceration more or less humane than the death penalty? I wonder if more persons die in prisons doing time than die from executions. Regardless, isn't that effectively a death penalty too?

    How many innocent lives have we, as a nation, taken in pursuit of wars or profits or even blithe negligence, both directly and indirectly? I believe the numbers would make wrongful executions vanish into the infinitesimal in comparison.

    It's easy to say that Georgia has a fatally flawed system, but how much better/worse is ours? Not so lucky we live Hawaii, mebbe.

    It seems to me you want to save a tree here or there, whilst blind to the forests being felled.
    Last edited by salmoned; September 23rd, 2011 at 11:15 AM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    You folks might find this interesting, especially the pictures.

    http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/...roy_davis.html

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    We are all Troy Davis.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    I'll agree with you there, as long as you agree we're all dodos.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    And should have joined them long ago.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    Soon enough, my friend, soon enough.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    The foolish old judges did not show any empathy. I assume they just wanted to go home and watch TV while a live human being was strapped to a table and killed by the "state" .Sodium Thiopental is no longer sold to US prisons because even the producers are nauseated by a cult of death masquerading as justice.

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    Its interesting watching the change in the human race, what is accepted in how we deal with crime over time. Good old civilized Merrie Olde England used to draw and quarter people and stick their decomposing heads on poles for public display only a few centuries ago. That was the social norm, it was accepted. Of course so many contemporaries screamed for the brutal crucifixion of Jesus, and others, nailing them on crosses then breaking their legs, that too was an accepted social norm. Rome, a citadel of civilization, feeding people to wild animals for the amusement of the masses. Again the social norm. You see where this is going, right? In the US public hangings were evidently considered good family entertainment, bring the kids and a picnic basket and enjoy the show. Lots of people consider bull fighting inhumane brutal cruelty, but its the norm for millions of civilized people, whatever squeamish Americans think of it. The gas chamber, electrocution, not very pleasant ways to go, and now lethal injection. Social norms are so relative, they change over time. It is never a good idea to start going backwards, we really do not want to have dead heads staring at us on light posts, do we?

    How to fit the killing of Osama bin Laden into this? Or execution of Nazi & Japanese war criminals? File under "act of war", that disposes of the question neatly. Maybe too neatly. Anyway, with changing social norms it is possible anything we take for granted today will be considered hopelessly primitively brutal and cruel by our grandchildren, or theirs. That will probably include executing people. But I do admit the emotional lift knowing that murderous Texas bigot whose name I am not even going to bother looking up is no longer among the living.

  17. #17
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    Wink Re: The Troy Davis Execution

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    I knew a prof who said basically that, that biology influenced the race to kill off surplus males with wars (...)

    Biology vs. culture.
    Biology 'may' have an influence on creating mechanisms to cull surplus males, but there is no evidence this is true. There is some evidence to support male-male homicide with generational survival, but to apply this to warfare is distant, if not tenuous.
    We all die, eventually, so death is a non-issue. Death before the passing-on of one’s genes is genetic homicide; killing a criminal does several things:
    1) It removes from the state the obligation of preserving the life (at considerable cost - taxed to you!) of a retro-productive member of society for an undetermined number of years.
    2) It is more humane than extended incarceration. (I have a former friend in prison for LIFE for the 'crime' of possessing prohibited weapons - he is depressed and miserable!)
    3) It permanently removes a criminal/potential criminal from the population so that they cannot repeat their crime (which many do).
    4) It may also remove their genes from the population, which is of questionable benefit.
    Is it fair? Perhaps sometimes, but not always. It is more efficient. As long as equitable trial procedures are observed, with reasonable possibility of review and reconsideration, it is the best we can do at present.
    Even trial and prosecution in a murder case is a burden on society, expensive, and difficult to prosecute fairly. Mistakes have been and can be made. Life imprisonment may mitigate this to a degree, but the numbers do not support it economically. Few life prisoners get reprieves.
    There are some who say that "one innocent saved is worth the cost," but I ask them to consider the innocents we send off to war at considerable cost to the taxpayer in dollars and lives, a significant percentage of whom are "executed" for the needs of the State. Over 58,000 'innocents,' i.e., non-criminals, died in Vietnam; why should we cry over the death of convicted murderers?
    Some say that males are a surplus in our society. I contend that females are as equal a surplus, as females determine the reproductive rate, which is in excess. We are overpopulated, which adds to the factors which influence wars and homicides.
    Males are considered to be more aggressive and competitive, which may or may not be true, but the reproductive future of our species is held in the wombs of the females. One male can restore a civilization, producing thousands of offspring from numerous females, but a single female can produce, at best, about one child per year.
    That said: Do we have a surplus of males? Or Do we have a surplus of females? *

    *(Do NOT pose this question to single males!)
    Last edited by Kaonohi; September 24th, 2011 at 07:36 PM. Reason: Fruckingstration!
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