The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

[Kalalau]

Another mass shooting. 12 dead, 51 injured. The accused looks so goofy in court, the befuddled expression and red hair. Evidently quite a brilliant scholar at one point, now this. I wonder if he might have a brain problem like Charles Whitman, the U. Texas tower shooter, did. There is no point going after all these assault weapons, they are already out there and the NRA is 100 % right, if they were made illegal only honest, harmless citizens would turn them in, so don't waste anybody's time even considering a ban on them. This kind of mass shooting, mass murder, is just something we will have to put up with, its the price we pay for letting those weapons get out in the first place, kind of like getting a hangover after you drink too much. But quite a bit worse. I am deeply touched by the tales of the young men who so heroically threw their bodies over their beloved companions to save their lives. Greater love hath no man...

As a kid I thought there would be serious gun control after President Kennedy was murdered, but it didn't happen. It didn't happen after Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, or John Lennon, or Columbine or Virginia Tech. It is not going to happen. Our political system will not respond. But where to draw the line? If you have a constitutional right to bear an Uzi, why not a nuke or a surface to air missile or nerve gas. Whats the difference? Seriously. A weapon is a weapon, if you have the right to bear one, why not the others?

Nobody of any political weight is saying a word about banning these weapons. They express the sorrow, the sympathy, but we all know its too late to do anything real about the situation. Each of us, as we enter a theater or a church or send our kids off to school just accepts mass slaughter as a possibility. To be sure its not a high probability, a very low probability, but as Aurora shows, it does happen from time to time. The only question is when and where next.

[matapule]

Re: The Aurora, Co., Theater Shootings

the NRA is 100 % right, if they were made illegal only honest, harmless citizens would turn them in, so don't waste anybody's time even considering a ban on them.

I disagree. There should be a Federal law that makes just owning an assault weapon a felony with a mandatory prison sentence. That won't get them all turned in but it makes owning one and not turning it in, highly problematic for the owner.

This kind of mass shooting, mass murder, is just something we will have to put up with,

Matapule is NOT willing to put up with it!

Seriously weapon is a weapon, if you have the right to bear one, why not the others?

The Second Amendment has been misconstrued by the NRA. The Second Amendment adressed the right to raise an army which England would not permit the colonists to do. There is NO Constitutional right to own assault weapons.

Nobody of any political weight is saying a word about banning these weapons.

This is a sad indictment of the NRA and their willingness to bully the politicians.

And I expect to be personally flamed by certain individuals for daring to defy the "gun nuts."

[Kalalau]

Re: The Aurora, Co., Theater Shootings

My realism is tempered by cynicism. Its cold & cruel but accurate: nothing will happen. Wringing of hands, fade from memory until the next time. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen, when will it be? 6 months? Less? Maybe a couple of years? And what will be the target, who will be the victims. We could modify "Where Have All The Flowers Gone?" to cover these mass shootings, but it would never get any airplay, any, after deregulation put control of the broadcasting industry in San Antone. But even with a lot of airplay that song and all the others did zero to stop or even slow down war. Just accept it, its not your sons and your daughters who are beyond your command, its your government.

Lyrics to The Times They Are A-Changin', by Bob Dylan

Come gather 'round people
Wherever you roam
And admit that the waters
Around you have grown
And accept it that soon
You'll be drenched to the bone
If your time to you
Is worth savin'
Then you better start swimmin'
Or you'll sink like a stone
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come writers and critics
Who prophesize with your pen
And keep your eyes wide
The chance won't come again
And don't speak too soon
For the wheel's still in spin
And there's no tellin' who
That it's namin'
For the loser now
Will be later to win
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come senators, congressmen
Please heed the call
Don't stand in the doorway
Don't block up the hall
For he that gets hurt
Will be he who has stalled
There's a battle outside
And it is ragin'
It'll soon shake your windows
And rattle your walls
For the times they are a-changin'.

Come mothers and fathers
Throughout the land
And don't criticize
What you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters
Are beyond your command
Your old road is
Rapidly agin'
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

The line it is drawn
The curse it is cast
The slow one now
Will later be fast
As the present now
Will later be past
The order is
Rapidly fadin'
And the first one now
Will later be last
For the times they are a-changin'.

Great song, great words, great message. Last time I heard it it was an instrumental version on Muzak in a supermarket, easy listening style.

[Kaonohi]

Re: The Aurora, Co., Theater Shootings

Just some clarification.

The second amendment, as crafted, was designed to create a volunteer civilian militia.
No standing army would dare to invade the USA because of the 2nd amendment. It is for our protection.

Unfortunately there are people who take the law into their own hands and break it's intention.
This is true for guns, politicians, taxes, autos and just about everything.
If we repeal the 2nd amendment, we put ourselves at risk.
North Korea won't give up their arms, neither Afghanistan nor Iran.

Where do illegally held arms come from? Most are stolen, and many of those are diverted from the military. Some come from government programs....
Answer: Disband and disarm the military, but not the citizens. Not until the criminals are disarmed first.
Get the CIA to stop selling arms to radicals in other countries.

Citizens have a right to defend themselves. In two instances in my long life I prevented crimes against me and my family by using a privately held weapon - without having to fire a shot.

If someone in that theatre had a concealed weapon, fewer people would have been injured or would have died.

That is what the anti-gun-nuts don't understand. Why not?

The rich and famous who support the anti-gun-nuts usually have private armed guards to protect them, but they wish to deny our rights to defend ourselves.

I believe in peace, but not a one-sided peace.

[Kaonohi]

Re: The Aurora, Co., Theater Shootings

I disagree. There should be a Federal law that makes just owning an assault weapon a felony with a mandatory prison sentence. That won't get them all turned in but it makes owning one and not turning it in, highly problematic for the owner. (...) There is NO Constitutional right to own assault weapons.
This is a sad indictment of the NRA and their willingness to bully the politicians.
And I expect to be personally flamed by certain individuals for daring to defy the "gun nuts."

No 'personal' flame, at least not from me, just my disagreement with your take on things. You have a 1st amendment right to your opinion, as do we all.

1. The definition of an "assault weapon" is vague and unclear. Common hunting or personal defense weapons are tossed into the "assault weapons" category for poorly understood reasons. Let the NRA define "assault weapons;" they will get it right. Until then, assault weapons are protected by the 2nd amendment, contrary to your opinion, since the expiration of the poorly-conceived "assault weapons ban."

2. The 2nd amendment simply states "arms," and the right of the people to keep and bear them. States, and the federal government have whittled down what "arms" means, sometimes wisely, sometimes not. Fully automatic weapons, silencers, cannons and other items intended for wartime combat are wisely banned.
The poorly constructed "assault weapons ban" banned many weapons that are not assault weapons; it was wisely allowed to expire. Naturally, gun owners accurately perceived that the U.S, Government is "out to get them," or at least their arms.

3. The NRA doesn't bully politicians any more or less than Greenpeace, AARP, ACLU, other civil rights groups or any other special-interest group does. Each group is there, supported by its members to inform politicians what their members' interests are, and to inform their members which politicians stand against their rights. It's the American way.

There is a common-sense middle of the road path we can find - but most people are more interested in "my way or the highway."

I hope the facts I have provided will help your understanding of the issue.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The Aurora, Co., Theater Shootings

If someone in that theatre had a concealed weapon, fewer people would have been injured or would have died.

I'm tired of hearing that b.s. argument every time there's a shooting like this. The guy may have been in full freakin' body armor, even down to groin and throat protection. If anyone had tried to take him out, there would have been another dead body, not fewer; the shooter was prepared for that very scenario.

In another thread, you said:

I'm bookmarking State.com!

So maybe you should read this: http://www.slate.com/articles/health..._the_nra_.html

[matapule]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

Leo, you bring up an interesting point. Let's take it a step further. Let's eliminate concealed weapons permits altogether (other than appropriate law enforcement). If guns are supposedly a deterrent, then require that owners wear them in a visible manner in pubic and so the rest of us can see what paranoid, foolish, scrubs they are and shun them. And let's require that anyone who has a gun in their house be required to post a sign in their front yard (just like the home security systems). If these people are so proud of their misinterpreted Second Amendment rights, let the whole world see who they are.

Even Nixon, Reagan, and Bush I favored some gun control. If Obama has the cajones to pass health reform, he should have the cajones to pass some legislation to control the ownership of military assault weapons and amount of ammunition. That would be the first, but not final, step.

It would interesting to see the statistics of what percentage of non gun owners deterred a house break in and what percentage of gun owners deterred a house break in. My suspicion is that the results would be enlightening. Vigilance is the best method of self protection, not guns.

[matapule]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

Well, here is another one posted on the news this morning.......here we go again!

One week after Colorado's movie theater shooting, Maryland cops have foiled what they believe could have been another massacre.
Law enforcement sources tell ABC News that a man from Crofton, Md., is under arrest for allegedly making threats against an employer and co-workers.
The suspect had more than 20 firearms at his residence, including semi-automatic rifles, shotguns and handguns, law enforcement sources said. Sources also said he had more than 1,000 rounds of ammunition.

Why do you need 20 guns and 1000 rounds of ammunition to protect yourself from home invasion or personal security? This is nuts! Gun control should limit one gun per one person and household, otherwise the "protection from home invasion/security" argument is just a spurious.

GUN NUTS!

[mel]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

These days it may be safer to stay home and just wait for the DVD to come out or rent the thing on Netflix. High movie prices already keep me away.

[matapule]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

Why do you need 20 guns and 1000 rounds of ammunition to protect yourself from home invasion or personal security? This is nuts! Gun control should limit one gun per one person and household, otherwise the "protection from home invasion/security" argument is just spurious.

GUN NUTS!

Here is a picture of this GUN Nut's arsenal!




Do you need this assortment of weapons for self protection and home invasion? GUN NUTS! I'm angry! I have a brain and I'm going to use it. At a MINIMUM, we need a law that limits guns to one hand gun per person or household and a maximum of 10 rounds of ammunition.

I won't be intimidated by the NRA and their GUN NUT members and supporters.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

These days it may be safer to stay home ...

Yeah, now THAT'S a logical idea! Oh, and since there's a far, far greater chance that you'll be killed in a car wreck on your way to a photo shoot, you should probably be safer by staying home and not doing that any longer. (Hey, you could donate all your gear to scrivener, and he can put it to good use with his students!)

And to those of you who believe in fate, destiny, gods, or whatever external powers you think control your life - you are the ones who should be most accepting of life's risks. If an outside force has your life in your hands, you're gonna go when that force says it's your time - maybe peacefully in your sleep at an advanced age, or being struck by that SUV that ran a stop sign, or by a stray bullet at the mall. Nothing you can do to avoid your fate, right?

Should you take precautions, and behave in a fashion that may prolong your life (drive attentively, eat wisely, exercise, avoid smoking, etc.)? By all means, YES. But don't get stupid. Don't avoid a movie theater BECAUSE there was a horrible shooting at one - avoid it because prices are too high for your budget (like Mel also said), or the popcorn is stale, or because most movies suck pond scum.

Or, if you really must think like that, then please DO stay home - and out of the way of those of us who do not fear life and all its inherent risks. The only guarantee you get in life is that you will die - 100% chance of that happening. Enjoy your limited time. Do nice things for your fellow beings who share this space for a brief hiccup of the grand calendar. Live each day with the knowledge that there is NO GUARANTEE you will get to see the next sunrise, or eat the next meal, or even finish reading (or typing) this sente

[mel]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

[yawn] - - - - - huh... I think I'll not post anymore photos here.

[Kaonohi]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

I won't be intimidated by the NRA and their GUN NUT members and supporters.

Good. Don't be intimidated by anybody, single or group. Stand up for your beliefs, but don't be one of those hypocrites that says others don't have the same right to stand up for theirs.

Do you think all members and supporters of the NRA are "GUN NUTS?"
That's a bit paranoid.

Sure, there are gun nuts, and anti-gun nuts. I think the term applies to extremism in either direction.

There's street-racer nuts, drinking nuts, political nuts, religious nuts and everything else, each takes their cut of the deaths of innocents.

I don't know why your focus is on guns; usually such obsessions come from personal experiences. You are safe to share here, since you are among friends. It will make you feel better and help us to understand your vehemence, as well.

Certainly guns are better if not over-supplied/over-used. After all, we only have two hands, but there are also specialized guns for specialized purposes.

Yes, gun controls are wise, but your suggestion is not. A handgun will not help much against that boar that attacks my dogs; a shotgun is better. And in Colorado, a handgun will not stop a grizzly if you are hiking and cross his path - I have seen gruesome pictures of a couple camping who ran into a grizzly, emptied their handgun into it, and subsequently got eaten (TRUE!). Gun controls should be made by people who understand the risks and the needs, not by politicians or bleeding-heart liberals.

I agree, that 'gun-nut' you refer to had way more weapons than a squad of soldiers would need. He was an extremist. I perceive that you are at least a borderline extremist - at the least. Maybe I am, too; I would believe in two handguns, in case one jams, and a shotgun is appropriate in the O'ahu countryside, where pigs and boars wander through our farms.

This is a subject that needs more than lip service. And it is NOT a subject that should divide friends.

[Kalalau]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

We are venturing a bit far afield, aren't we, so I will chip in. Why would Bible believing Christians NOT vote for a candidate they thought to be auntie Christ? I mean, its in the prophecies, auntie Christ is absolutely essential to bringing back Our Lord, so is the armageddon war or whatever. Yet the biggest fraidy cats of the auntie Christ seem to be those who want the return of Our Lord the most. Just another thing that doesn't make sense.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: The Aurora, CO Theater Shootings

[yawn] - - - - - huh... I think I'll not post anymore photos here.

Hee-hee! The HT equivalent of fingers in ears & "la-la-LAAA...I can't hear you...la-la-LAAAA!" Love it, Mel, love it.