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Mideastern Rage

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  • Mideastern Rage

    I heard one reporter mention one time that there was some kind of connection between that goofy Florida pastor who wanted to burn the Koran and the people who produced the movie that has set the Mideast aflame, resulting in the deaths of four American embassy workers including our ambassador to Libya. This is the kind of thing that may or may not be true, it would be very nice to find out of this eruption was part of a deliberate plot. Should people have the right under free speech to burn the Koran or any other religious work? But why? You cannot scream "Fire!!" in a crowded theater, even if its for arts sake, so if you are turning out a film deliberately to provoke anti American rioting across the Islamic world, that results in deaths as surely as yelling "Fire" does, and it, too, should be prohibited. None of the rights in the Bill of Rights are absolute. You cannot kill people because God told you to. I really would like to see some follow up on that single isolated report.


    video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc/49004610/#49004610
    Last edited by Kalalau; September 12, 2012, 05:54 PM.

  • #2
    Re: Mideastern Rage

    Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
    Should people have the right under free speech to burn the Koran or any other religious work?
    Taking the question to be Do they have the right?, in my opinion, yes.
    In Supreme Court Justice Breyer's opinion, maybe -- maybe not. (See http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...owded-theater/.)
    In President Obama's opinion, unfortunately yes, unless the fire might cause a hazard (e.g. pollution). (See http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ive-interview/.) He says Pastor Terry Jones apparently does have the legal right to carry out the burning, but this could have very bad results.
    Last edited by GregLee; September 12, 2012, 08:14 PM.
    Greg

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    • #3
      Re: Mideastern Rage

      There are reports the cast of the film is protesting that they were duped, that they signed up for an adventure film, that anti-Islamic speeches were dubbed onto the film, and that the film was financed by an Egyptian Copt, a Christian sect in Egypt. There is nothing funny about innocent death. You cannot incite a riot, if you do you should be responsible for any damages. That applies here, it should apply worldwide, especially if inciting riots and possible death was an objective in creating the film. Evil intent is shown by dubbing deliberately inflammatory lines. All the basic rights of the Bill of Rights have reasonable limits: no one should be allowed to put out a film depicting you or anyone else as a monster deserving of death.

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      • #4
        Re: Mideastern Rage

        Here is a summation of "What you need to know about..." the video.

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        • #5
          Re: Mideastern Rage

          If it is made illegal to cause a riot or deaths by speech, then whoever wants to suppress your speech could do so by arranging for a riot or deaths to ensue. This would make a mockery of free speech. Would you count the American revolution as a riot caused by writings such as Tom Paine's Common Sense?
          Greg

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          • #6
            Re: Mideastern Rage

            Interesting information, Leo Lekio, thank you! CNN mentioned that Mohammed had been portrayed as a child molester and womanizer in the film. That was not an attempt to argue a case, like Tom Paine, but only to enrage and enflame people. I dare say if the same accusations were made against Jesus Christ, or whatever accusations it would take on the same scale as those the film evidently made against Mohammed, countless thousands of Christians would riot. It does appear that the murder of the four American embassy workers was independently coordinated, CNN reports an arrest, I find that incredible but if its true, congratulations to those involved in making the arrest. How far do we want to take this freedom of speech thing, are we willing to have, say, Saudi Arabia and Iraq cut off their oil to the Godless west because of this film. Not me.

            Let your imagination run wild on how to cause a riot under cover of free speech. It would be so easy! If one didn't care about harm it would cause, it might even be kind of entertaining. But we do owe it to our fellow beings to not bring harm to them so we don't do things like that, we understand at our most basic level that that is wrong.

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            • #7
              Re: Mideastern Rage

              One of the few noteworthy things Mitt Romney has said recently that I agree with is: free speech is a fundamental American value. And, therefore, the statement recently issued by our Cairo embassy was somewhat ill-considered. But I find it startling how far this value has fallen out of favor among Americans, who seem to me to be increasingly willing to limit others' rights whenever it is expedient.
              Greg

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              • #8
                Re: Mideastern Rage

                Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                One of the few noteworthy things Mitt Romney has said recently that I agree with is: free speech is a fundamental American value. And, therefore, the statement recently issued by our Cairo embassy was somewhat ill-considered. But I find it startling how far this value has fallen out of favor among Americans, who seem to me to be increasingly willing to limit others' rights whenever it is expedient.
                Our way of life in America was created on the premise of freedom - first from our British colonizers, then even from our government and our neighbors, and ourselves. Still, our rights get eroded more and more with each new leader we choose.

                Other countries base their world outlook upon adherence to an imposed standard. Most Islamic countries mix their politics with repressive religious dictates, and we need to remind ourselves that it was not that long ago the same was true for America, despite our laws to the contrary.

                Someone once described freedom as the right to swing your fist as long as it didn't hit anyone else's nose. In this case the described film has evidently overstepped that boundary; because of that action people were emotionally hurt and they retaliated. Harm was caused.

                To deliberately provoke another human being may not be a violation of law, but it certainly is a violation of humanity.

                For a peaceful world, which I assume we all want, we must have mutual respect, at least.
                Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                ~ ~
                Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

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                • #9
                  Re: Mideastern Rage

                  Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                  Someone once described freedom as the right to swing your fist as long as it didn't hit anyone else's nose. In this case the described film has evidently overstepped that boundary; because of that action people were emotionally hurt and they retaliated. Harm was caused.
                  And this is an example of what I mean. You regret our loss of freedom and then immediately go on to propose taking it away, without even noticing the incongruity. A freedom that is permitted only in circumstances when no one cares enough to try to suppress it is not a freedom that requires constitutional protection.
                  Greg

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                  • #10
                    Re: Mideastern Rage

                    Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                    And this is an example of what I mean. You regret our loss of freedom and then immediately go on to propose taking it away, without even noticing the incongruity. A freedom that is permitted only in circumstances when no one cares enough to try to suppress it is not a freedom that requires constitutional protection.
                    If I understand, you say our freedoms allow us to ignore the freedoms of others (to espouse their beliefs) - that is, we can hit them in the nose when we swing our fists, and it's OK?

                    I think our freedoms are not unconditional, that we must pay the price of transgressions on the freedoms of others. Otherwise, FREEDOM is an empty phrase, devoid of meaning.

                    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                    ~ ~
                    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Misplaced Mideastern Rage

                      [Excised to prevent further bloodshed.]
                      Last edited by salmoned; September 13, 2012, 09:56 PM.
                      May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Mideastern Rage

                        Confirmed: The Director of Innocence of Muslims Is a Schlocky Softcore Porn Director Named Alan Roberts

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                        • #13
                          Re: Mideastern Rage

                          The violence continues to spread, 3 more dead. Anybody involved with this who can be deported to Egypt or Iran or any country with Islamic justice should be, nobody has the tiniest right to pull this crap against the US, to put innocent lives at stake, and cause murders.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Mideastern Rage

                            Messages from the people of Libya: http://imgur.com/a/tlCyI

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                            • #15
                              Re: Mideastern Rage

                              Amen. Beautiful.

                              Sent to me from a friend with a Libyan friend who expressed her feelings:The following is a letter written by a dear Libyan friend. I share it with you and hope you will with others.
                              __________________________________________________ _____________________________________

                              Dears all American Embassy& Consulate employees,

                              I am a Libyan citizen, and I am very shameful of the criminal acts of some angry, immature, ignorant Libyans have done. There are no words that can express how deeply sad and angry I feel. What happened to Mr. Cris Stevens and the other three American employees yesterday is a criminal act. It is NOT tolerated by us, Libyan citizens.

                              Cris Stevens was a great representatives of the United States. I deeply liked his generous personality and policies toward Libyan people. He was kind and respectful to us. He was supportive of our revolution. He believed in it. I was shocked this morning when I heard the news of his death.

                              Mr. Stevens worked sincerely hard on improving the Libyan-American relationship. He believed in diplomacy and dialogue. He wanted to bridge the gap between the Libyans and the Americans by encouraging Libyans to travel to the States. Bridging the gap between our two different cultures is the only to stop stereotyping and hating each other. I deeply believe in Mr. Stevens' mission and vision.

                              Gaddafi was killed about a year ago. However, the negative effects of his ruling for 42 years are not dead yet. We ended the dictatorship, but we are still in a battle with ignorance.

                              I hope that this tragedy will bring us, the Libyan people and American people, even closer. And, I hope that we keep following in the footsteps of Mr. Stevens.

                              Thank you, Mr. Stevens, and may your soul rest in peace.


                              God bless Libya.
                              God bless America.

                              Libya citizen,
                              (I took out her name just to not cause her any problems)

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