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Thread: Mideastern Rage

  1. #1

    Default Mideastern Rage

    I heard one reporter mention one time that there was some kind of connection between that goofy Florida pastor who wanted to burn the Koran and the people who produced the movie that has set the Mideast aflame, resulting in the deaths of four American embassy workers including our ambassador to Libya. This is the kind of thing that may or may not be true, it would be very nice to find out of this eruption was part of a deliberate plot. Should people have the right under free speech to burn the Koran or any other religious work? But why? You cannot scream "Fire!!" in a crowded theater, even if its for arts sake, so if you are turning out a film deliberately to provoke anti American rioting across the Islamic world, that results in deaths as surely as yelling "Fire" does, and it, too, should be prohibited. None of the rights in the Bill of Rights are absolute. You cannot kill people because God told you to. I really would like to see some follow up on that single isolated report.


    video.msnbc.msn.com/msnbc/49004610/#49004610
    Last edited by Kalalau; September 12th, 2012 at 05:54 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Should people have the right under free speech to burn the Koran or any other religious work?
    Taking the question to be Do they have the right?, in my opinion, yes.
    In Supreme Court Justice Breyer's opinion, maybe -- maybe not. (See http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...owded-theater/.)
    In President Obama's opinion, unfortunately yes, unless the fire might cause a hazard (e.g. pollution). (See http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ive-interview/.) He says Pastor Terry Jones apparently does have the legal right to carry out the burning, but this could have very bad results.
    Last edited by GregLee; September 12th, 2012 at 08:14 PM.
    Greg

  3. #3

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    There are reports the cast of the film is protesting that they were duped, that they signed up for an adventure film, that anti-Islamic speeches were dubbed onto the film, and that the film was financed by an Egyptian Copt, a Christian sect in Egypt. There is nothing funny about innocent death. You cannot incite a riot, if you do you should be responsible for any damages. That applies here, it should apply worldwide, especially if inciting riots and possible death was an objective in creating the film. Evil intent is shown by dubbing deliberately inflammatory lines. All the basic rights of the Bill of Rights have reasonable limits: no one should be allowed to put out a film depicting you or anyone else as a monster deserving of death.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Here is a summation of "What you need to know about..." the video.

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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    If it is made illegal to cause a riot or deaths by speech, then whoever wants to suppress your speech could do so by arranging for a riot or deaths to ensue. This would make a mockery of free speech. Would you count the American revolution as a riot caused by writings such as Tom Paine's Common Sense?
    Greg

  6. #6

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Interesting information, Leo Lekio, thank you! CNN mentioned that Mohammed had been portrayed as a child molester and womanizer in the film. That was not an attempt to argue a case, like Tom Paine, but only to enrage and enflame people. I dare say if the same accusations were made against Jesus Christ, or whatever accusations it would take on the same scale as those the film evidently made against Mohammed, countless thousands of Christians would riot. It does appear that the murder of the four American embassy workers was independently coordinated, CNN reports an arrest, I find that incredible but if its true, congratulations to those involved in making the arrest. How far do we want to take this freedom of speech thing, are we willing to have, say, Saudi Arabia and Iraq cut off their oil to the Godless west because of this film. Not me.

    Let your imagination run wild on how to cause a riot under cover of free speech. It would be so easy! If one didn't care about harm it would cause, it might even be kind of entertaining. But we do owe it to our fellow beings to not bring harm to them so we don't do things like that, we understand at our most basic level that that is wrong.

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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    One of the few noteworthy things Mitt Romney has said recently that I agree with is: free speech is a fundamental American value. And, therefore, the statement recently issued by our Cairo embassy was somewhat ill-considered. But I find it startling how far this value has fallen out of favor among Americans, who seem to me to be increasingly willing to limit others' rights whenever it is expedient.
    Greg

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    Unhappy Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
    One of the few noteworthy things Mitt Romney has said recently that I agree with is: free speech is a fundamental American value. And, therefore, the statement recently issued by our Cairo embassy was somewhat ill-considered. But I find it startling how far this value has fallen out of favor among Americans, who seem to me to be increasingly willing to limit others' rights whenever it is expedient.
    Our way of life in America was created on the premise of freedom - first from our British colonizers, then even from our government and our neighbors, and ourselves. Still, our rights get eroded more and more with each new leader we choose.

    Other countries base their world outlook upon adherence to an imposed standard. Most Islamic countries mix their politics with repressive religious dictates, and we need to remind ourselves that it was not that long ago the same was true for America, despite our laws to the contrary.

    Someone once described freedom as the right to swing your fist as long as it didn't hit anyone else's nose. In this case the described film has evidently overstepped that boundary; because of that action people were emotionally hurt and they retaliated. Harm was caused.

    To deliberately provoke another human being may not be a violation of law, but it certainly is a violation of humanity.

    For a peaceful world, which I assume we all want, we must have mutual respect, at least.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
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    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
    Someone once described freedom as the right to swing your fist as long as it didn't hit anyone else's nose. In this case the described film has evidently overstepped that boundary; because of that action people were emotionally hurt and they retaliated. Harm was caused.
    And this is an example of what I mean. You regret our loss of freedom and then immediately go on to propose taking it away, without even noticing the incongruity. A freedom that is permitted only in circumstances when no one cares enough to try to suppress it is not a freedom that requires constitutional protection.
    Greg

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    Question Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
    And this is an example of what I mean. You regret our loss of freedom and then immediately go on to propose taking it away, without even noticing the incongruity. A freedom that is permitted only in circumstances when no one cares enough to try to suppress it is not a freedom that requires constitutional protection.
    If I understand, you say our freedoms allow us to ignore the freedoms of others (to espouse their beliefs) - that is, we can hit them in the nose when we swing our fists, and it's OK?

    I think our freedoms are not unconditional, that we must pay the price of transgressions on the freedoms of others. Otherwise, FREEDOM is an empty phrase, devoid of meaning.

    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
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    Default Re: Misplaced Mideastern Rage

    [Excised to prevent further bloodshed.]
    Last edited by salmoned; September 13th, 2012 at 09:56 PM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  12. #12

  13. #13

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    The violence continues to spread, 3 more dead. Anybody involved with this who can be deported to Egypt or Iran or any country with Islamic justice should be, nobody has the tiniest right to pull this crap against the US, to put innocent lives at stake, and cause murders.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Messages from the people of Libya: http://imgur.com/a/tlCyI

  15. #15

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Amen. Beautiful.

    Sent to me from a friend with a Libyan friend who expressed her feelings:The following is a letter written by a dear Libyan friend. I share it with you and hope you will with others.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________

    Dears all American Embassy& Consulate employees,

    I am a Libyan citizen, and I am very shameful of the criminal acts of some angry, immature, ignorant Libyans have done. There are no words that can express how deeply sad and angry I feel. What happened to Mr. Cris Stevens and the other three American employees yesterday is a criminal act. It is NOT tolerated by us, Libyan citizens.

    Cris Stevens was a great representatives of the United States. I deeply liked his generous personality and policies toward Libyan people. He was kind and respectful to us. He was supportive of our revolution. He believed in it. I was shocked this morning when I heard the news of his death.

    Mr. Stevens worked sincerely hard on improving the Libyan-American relationship. He believed in diplomacy and dialogue. He wanted to bridge the gap between the Libyans and the Americans by encouraging Libyans to travel to the States. Bridging the gap between our two different cultures is the only to stop stereotyping and hating each other. I deeply believe in Mr. Stevens' mission and vision.

    Gaddafi was killed about a year ago. However, the negative effects of his ruling for 42 years are not dead yet. We ended the dictatorship, but we are still in a battle with ignorance.

    I hope that this tragedy will bring us, the Libyan people and American people, even closer. And, I hope that we keep following in the footsteps of Mr. Stevens.

    Thank you, Mr. Stevens, and may your soul rest in peace.


    God bless Libya.
    God bless America.

    Libya citizen,
    (I took out her name just to not cause her any problems)

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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    This whole thing shows the incompetance of the Obama administration to fail to have a Marine Corps presence at consulates in the middle east. Because of B.O.'s foolishness, our embassador in Libya is dead.

    The article in Der Spiegel says it all:
    "DER SPIEGEL: US President Barack Obama’s Middle East policy is in ruins"

    Time for change in November.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by AlohaKine View Post
    This whole thing shows the incompetance of the Obama administration to fail to have a Marine Corps presence at consulates in the middle east.
    Two of the four killed were former Navy SEAL members (Glen A. Doherty, Tyrone S. Woods) - are you disrespectfully suggesting they were not competent enough to provide security?
    Last edited by Leo Lakio; September 14th, 2012 at 07:23 PM.

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    Unhappy Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    The violence continues to spread, 3 more dead. Anybody involved with this who can be deported to Egypt or Iran or any country with Islamic justice should be, nobody has the tiniest right to pull this crap against the US, to put innocent lives at stake, and cause murders.
    The brew continues to stew. How long before our conflict - stupid religious prejudice - erupts into more mass killing? It's frightening.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    The chaos in the region is a swirling mass of problematic proportions.

    There is no easy solution.

    The attack in Benghazi was probably planned (premeditated) whereas
    some of the other rioting maybe connected to the infamous youtube vid.

    The gent who produced the film turns out to be a former methamphetamine producer

    and FBI informant.

    There is some interesting stuff to read over at www.cryptome.org.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    A serious question, was security at the embassies any different under Obama than under Reagan, Bush I & II, Clinton, etc? If not, it seems pretty unreasonable and unfair to blame President Obama for this. Things were going smoothly until that video hit the internet. What was the producer's purpose in doing the video? It was reportedly circulated by the Koran burning Florida pastor, also with his own agenda. When the country is attacked it is a basic duty to rally behind and support our leaders. As wantonly negligent as Bush was in ignoring warnings of the coming 9-11 attacks, the country still rallied behind him and to his credit he did a good job of keeping patriotic spirits alive. This disaster needs to be thoroughly investigated. What if it could be traced back to some political operative trying to throw the election? Stranger things have happened. Doesn't the timing seem remarkably convenient for enemies of the President? It does need to be investigated.
    Last edited by Kalalau; September 15th, 2012 at 05:26 AM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Quote Originally Posted by AlohaKine View Post
    The article in Der Spiegel says it all:
    "DER SPIEGEL: US President Barack Obama’s Middle East policy is in ruins"
    Meanwhile, from another German paper, Die Tageszeitung:

    "The conservative US media have already -- excessively -- labeled the anti-US protests in Egypt, Libya and Yemen as a 'wildfire' and interpreted them as a result of Obama's 'weakness.' It's lucky for Obama that his opponent Romney is acting in such a hapless manner. Instead of condemning the attacks in a statesman-like fashion and assuring the president of his support, Romney criticized the government's alleged 'apology' to the demonstrators. That was not just nonsense, but partisan maneuvering at a moment when patriotism would have been appropriate. With his attack, Romney has scored an own goal."

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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    It's not a new problem for us. Suppose an ally is the friendly dictator of a people who, generally, dislike us. Should we support the dictator, to maintain the power and influence of the US in the world, or promote or at least acquiesce in a liberation movement which may lead to a regime antagonistic to our interests? The conservative's course is to support the dictator, because he's on our side, and that is being strong. Letting the dictator be overthrown is weakness. We let Batista fail in Cuba, and see how that let our great enemy the Soviet Union get a toehold just a few miles from our own shore. We let the Shah of Iran, our ally in the region, be overthrown partly because of stories of torture by his state police, and now Iran is our most prominent antagonist in the region. Was that a sign of our foreign policy weakness? I heard Farid Zakaria observe today that the anti-Americanism in Egypt we notice today was always there, but we see it more now, when before, when there was an anti-American demonstration, Mubarak would simply have had the demonstrators shot. So would the strong course in the Mideast have been to support Mubarak or some successor tyrant?
    Greg

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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Greg, you pose important and thought provoking questions with no easy answers. I'm glad I'm not President of the US.
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  24. #24

    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    When the USSR did it they were called puppet governments and we thought of it as tyranny. Nixon was strong in assassinating the duly elected president of Chile. Is there any national pride in that? Or disgrace? Eisenhower was strong in overthrowing the duly elected premier of Iran, Mossadegh. To me, the long term consequences were not worth it at all. We would have been much better off dealing honestly with Mossadegh, some historians credit his overthrow with setting in motion the whole Islamic nationalist movement. It sure took a while, but it has not turned out well for us at all. On Vietnam Liberation Day Ho Chi Minh quoted liberally from the US Declaration of Independence, evidently he actually thought the US would recognize his nationalist government. Unfortunately...well we all know that story. And now Vietnam is a popular and up and coming tourist mecca, its manufacturing and exports grow, and just think: it all could have been this way since 1955! And those 58,000 American soldiers would still be alive. Oh well.

    There are trends of history that just can't be resisted, nationalism is one of them. You can't plug up a volcano forever, and the longer you try, the worse the inevitable explosion will be. How about Batista, our puppet in Cuba? What if, instead of setting up a puppet who bullied and exploited his people, we had encouraged Cuba to have a more popular, benevolent government? Why would there have been a Castro? If the Cuban people had been happy with their government, if they had had a stake in their economy instead of being exploited peasants, they would have laughed off the appeal of Communism like Americans always have. Its not that hard. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Put yourself in the shoes of someone from a country with a puppet dictator. None of us would like it a bit.

    It is also very expensive to maintain puppet governments. The USSR went out of business, it went bankrupt, from the expense of their Afghan war, trying to keep their puppet in power. We deal honestly and honorably with most of the countries of the world: Brazil is no puppet government, neither is Italy, France, Japan, its a long list. We don't have a big army in Brazil propping up some puppet, its better for them and for us that way, if you actually want occupying armies around the world look for taxes to go a lot higher, it isn't cheap.
    Last edited by Kalalau; September 15th, 2012 at 04:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Mideastern Rage

    Terrorists are cowards who slay innocents with glee. Too cowardly to confront their real enemies - or even their perceived enemies.

    How many innocent Muslims were in the World Trade Center on 9/11?

    Allah must be laughing his heaven off at the antics of those who claim to follow him, but don't even follow the Koran.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

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