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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #651

    Default Re: Gun Control

    I think the Zimmerman case most especially the verdict make the case real well for a resurrection of the Black Panthers. If the system won't respect Black people because its the right thing to do, maybe it will respect them out of fear of people packing guns. Looking at it this way, Martin was murdered because he was unarmed. No getting around it. I am sorry its that kind of world. Seriously, real sorry. But there's no sense pretending people are nice and that the justice system cares about non whites. Its a matter of survival. Arm the children.

  2. #652
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    The really relevant question isn't what would have happened if Zimmerman had been Black, but what would have happened if Martin had been white. Say, a rich white girl. A rich white girl getting followed by Zimmerman.
    Good question. Politics and public outcry definitely have an influence on our justice system, no doubt.

    I'm guessing the most effect it would have had on Zimmerman would have been he'd get arrested and charged or arrested, not charged, and released. That's mostly it.

    From what little I read, the police never arrested Zimmerman because his story lined up and there was no evidence to the contrary. I think lack of evidence of what happened before Martin was mounted on Zimmerman and punching him is what led to the not guilty verdict.

    A self defense lawyer Andrew Branca felt:

    When I took my first serious look at this case, some six or so months ago, and worked though the existing discovery file, I thought to myself, the State’s got nothing.
    From a political point of view, it's not surprising that the State sought prosecution, even if it didn't appear the State had much in the way of real evidence.

    After the State closed their case, and it was evident they didn't have any (evidence) aces up their sleeves, the Defense asked for an acquittal. The judge denied the request, which Branca felt showed the judge's bias.

    Then there's a story about a whistleblower in the State office claiming they were withholding evidence from the Defense.

    After all of this effort to nail Zimmerman, in the end the jury ended up declaring him innocent. I assume they felt the State didn't have enough real evidence.

    So if Martin was a rich white girl, yeah, there would have been an effect, but I don't know if it would have changed the final outcome.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    A Black defendant:


    (CNN) -- Saying he had no discretion under state law, a judge sentenced a Jacksonville, Florida, woman to 20 years in prison Friday for firing a warning shot in an effort to scare off her abusive husband.
    From what little I've read about self defense law, firing a warning shot is a big no-no. This is the problem with people paying money for guns but not paying money for good training; specifically legal training.

    Often times the way the legal system works doesn't match the way the average citizen thinks it does. If you go into court without legal representation, you're going in blind. If you buy a firearm for self defense without knowledge of self defense law, you're going in blind.

    If you had a video of a woman being attacked by a man, and there was a green and red light to indicate when she was legally allowed to shoot him, the light could be flashing back and forth, second by second. It's that crazy when a person is and isn't allowed to shoot in self defense.

    One of the things you learn is to say very little to the police, until you have an attorney present. Anything you can and say will be used against you (and it can't be used to help you). The police can lie to you, but you can't lie to the police.

    I don't know what self defense legal training Marissa Alexander received, but I'm gonna bet she didn't have much.

    I doubt she even watched this video.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Martin was murdered because he was unarmed. No getting around it.
    That's a bit of a stretch, in my opinion. In the end, the State couldn't find enough hard evidence.


    I am sorry its that kind of world. Seriously, real sorry. But there's no sense pretending people are nice and that the justice system cares about non whites. Its a matter of survival. Arm the children.
    I agree we live in a bad world, but I don't think firearms is the first thing we should arm children with.
    Last edited by MyopicJoe; July 14th, 2013 at 10:26 PM.
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  3. #653

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Maybe we have missed the point about a jury of peers. I believe it was an all white jury that approved of Zimmerman's murder. It was an all white jury that let off the 4 LA cops videotaped beating Rodney King thereby causing riots that claimed over 50 lives and cost billions. A lawyer friend told about a case he'd worked on where a Black defendant had several alibi witnesses who placed him dozens of miles from the scene of a crime, but they were all Black and another all white jury chose to believe they were all lying and convicted the guy who went away for decades until DNA evidence proved he was always innocent. Wouldn't it be nice if those jurors could go to jail for their evil verdicts? I am not going to say that all whites are racists, but there may be a tendency in that direction and these problems might be taken care of with segregated juries. Whites don't seem to be up to the requirement of being open minded and impartial, we seem to have a poor track record. Maybe thats part of why so many Black youths are in prison. So why not just be reasonable, when we want a jury of peers, get a jury of peers, Blacks judging Blacks and whites judging whites. Fairness and impartiality is a high requirement and evidence is strong that we are not up to it in terms of race.

  4. #654

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Racism can be subtle. It can be something we are not even aware of. Here's an example. A bi racial couple throws parties. He, Black, she, white. They invite their friends. These are intelligent aware people not likely to be bigots, but the Black people party in one room, the whites in another. Nobody is being hostile or unfriendly, I think it just comes down to comfort, you are comfortable with whats familiar. Its possible these all white juries, the people on them consider themselves open minded, but still tend to give a Black person, a Black defendant, a bit more scrutiny or suspicion or doubt than they would a white defendant, and not even be aware they are doing it. So to be fair it would seem like having exclusively white or exclusively Black juries is a mistake, it seems like it would be a sensible thing to have juries ethnically mixed. I don't think this is as much of a problem in Hawai'i as it is on the mainland, but the record seems pretty clear that it is a problem on the mainland.

  5. #655
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    I believe it was an all white jury that approved of Zimmerman's murder.
    No such thing happened. The jury decided that Zimmerman was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Given the photos of Zimmerman's injuries, I don't think they had a choice. An all black jury would surely have done exactly the same.
    Greg

  6. #656

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    I believe it was an all white jury ...
    Popping in briefly because I really dislike seeing these kinds of errors continuing to circulate without correction. One of the jurors was described as "black or Hispanic" during jury selection.

    Back to lurking now...

  7. #657

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Hispanic. 5 whites, one hispanic. It might have been nice to have had at least one Black on the jury, maybe impart a little perspective. "Peers", that sort of stuff. Racism can be real subtle. Seems like Zimmerman could have been an example even though he used the n. word and swore a lot on the tapes but he probably thought of himself as a perfectly reasonable open minded fair man. Probably coincided with how the jurors thought. Too bad Martin tried to defend himself. He should have known his place, maybe Zimmerman would have left him alone if he hadn't tried to act like a white man would have under the same circumstances. I wonder if Zimmerman will chalk up some more victims now that he's been freed. Maybe one of the jurors kids will attract his interest, or one of his defense attorneys kids. A nice stable sort to be armed and lurking and pretending to be a cop. We can all rest easier. We need more Zimmermans.

  8. #658

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Seems like the case was made to fail. Just like selecting an all white jury in the Rodney King beating case although these guys did chose one Hispanic, from Zimmerman's ethnic background. Well, they got their wish. American justice disgraces, humiliates itself again. They see no problem with convincing millions of people of the unfairness, the bias, the prejudice, the bigotry of the system. There was some quote from Jefferson about fearing for the country if there is a just God. Amen.

  9. #659

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Seems the Zimmerman jury was filled with a bunch of dolts, every time you hear one of them speak the kid was as doomed in court as he was that rainy night.

  10. #660
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Seems like the case was made to fail.
    Four of the six jurors were gun nuts. It wasn't Zimmerman who was on trial, it was gun control that was on trial and the jury was packed with gun nuts. Even the prosecutor admitted he was a gun nut.

    And now, apparently, Zimmerman gets his gun back. I think anyone who encounters Zimmerman now should be able to claim "great fear of their life" and claim self-defense.

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
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  11. #661
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    Four of the six jurors were gun nuts. It wasn't Zimmerman who was on trial, it was gun control that was on trial and the jury was packed with gun nuts. Even the prosecutor admitted he was a gun nut.

    And now, apparently, Zimmerman gets his gun back. I think anyone who encounters Zimmerman now should be able to claim "great fear of their life" and claim self-defense.

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    I do not believe in this ignorance and arrogance. Any judge would kick matapule out for biased prejudice. "Gun Nut" as used by Matapule is an equivalent epithet to "
    Nigger.
    " It's a term with no real meaning, meant only to demean a member of a group other than your own, and should be banned, for the same reason.

    For anyone to scatter this term among members of a legal body indiscriminately is tantamount to a new form of racism, without reference to race, only casual reference to social preferences being involved.

    Can we also have "dog nuts," "Car nuts," etc being used as valid terms of demeaning others?
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  12. #662

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Leo Lakio View Post
    Back to lurking now...
    Then, I must lurk too. I will follow.

  13. #663

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Interesting about the gun nuts including the prosecutor. Gun nuts are usually rightists, who seem to trend toward racism a bit more often than normal people. The pieces fall into place. Can there be any doubt prosecutors in the Rodney King beating case wanted that case to fail, allowing it to be moved to an all white neighborhood, Simi Valley, and filled with pro police jurors? Prosecutors are naturally tight with police and authoritarian figures and how could that not include make believe cops like Zimmerman. Anyway, American justice again has kukae all over its face, humiliating itself again before the entire world and our own citizens, convincing tens of millions of people that the justice system is dependably unjust, you can count on it. I guess we always knew that. Rich white people usually get off. Anderson Cooper had an interesting stat last night on CNN, that all white juries convict Black defendants at a 17 % higher rate than they do white defendants, but if a single Black is included on a jury the conviction rates for Black and white defendants become virtually identical. So again, not putting a Black on the Zimmerman jury could have been a deliberate ploy to throw the verdict the way the prosecutors really wanted it to go, just as in the Rodney King beating trial.

  14. #664
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    Four of the six jurors were gun nuts. It wasn't Zimmerman who was on trial, it was gun control that was on trial and the jury was packed with gun nuts. Even the prosecutor admitted he was a gun nut.

    And now, apparently, Zimmerman gets his gun back. I think anyone who encounters Zimmerman now should be able to claim "great fear of their life" and claim self-defense.

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    mind citing a source?
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  15. #665
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TATTRAT View Post
    mind citing a source?
    I watched the entire trial live on HLN TV. Did you?
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  16. #666
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    I watched the entire trial live on HLN TV. Did you?
    Didn't you know? Matapule can identify a gun nut just by looking at them on TV.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
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    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  17. #667

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Its like a whole new kind of hunting. Zimmerman went hunting and brought down his prey and the legal system is fine with that.

    A friend is Black, he's real big like about 6'5". One day as he's stepping out of his own house a cop jams a gun in his face and commands him to lie in the gutter. There's a criminal in the neighborhood, a short white man. What was the cop reacting to other than the same kind of primal racist fear that Zimmerman had of Martin, the same fear of the unknown that made the nice lady jurors fine with approving the murder of Martin. Maybe Florida can cash in on this style of hunting, I'm sure there are loads of people who would pay to enjoy hunting human prey. As long as its legal in Florida and it obviously is, they might as well make some money on it.

  18. #668
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    I spent that week at the annual conference of the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association...

    ILEETA’s 700-plus attendees train cops for the streets...

    At ILEETA, I was attending a course on interdicting active mass-murderers when it was announced that the universal background check bill sank in the Senate, and witnessed the audience of police instructors burst out in spontaneous applause.
    RUT-ROH!

    Gun nuts are training police officers!?!? They may infect them with gun nuttiness!!!




    I was at a police seminar on the topic of active shooters...

    Another panelist, a retired SWAT lieutenant...

    When a retired police chief on the panel announced that he’d just received a text that the UBC had failed to make it through the Senate, the police audience erupted into applause.
    OH NOES! It's 2 LATE!

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  19. #669
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    the same fear of the unknown that made the nice lady jurors fine with approving the murder of Martin.
    It is a new form of lynching in the South, when armed white men would string up unarmed black men to "teach those uppity blacks a thing or two." Unfortunately many Hispanic people are just as racist toward Blacks as their Anglo counterparts. Zimmerman's mother (from Ecuador I believe) has been quoted in the past with outrageous statements about Blacks. Zimmerman's brother made a fool of himself with racist comments on television a couple of nights ago.

    The fact is Trayvon would still be alive today if Zimmerman had not been fortified with his gun.

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  20. #670

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Interesting, the law enforcement peoples reactions against background checks. On the surface you might expect that they'd like background checks because it would make their work easier. But they are the authoritarian personality, often. The biggest bully in my high school became a cop. I have met good cops, nice cops, but also rude ones who knew they had the upper hand and used their power to abuse, humiliate, and insult. Zimmerman fits right in, clearly a cop wanna be, throwing his considerable weight around, bullying people. Funny how the public falls in line with that. Some famous psych analysis found criminals and cops have very similar personalities. So law enforcement people being gun fans should be no surprise and opposing laws that would have made their actual work easier is no surprise either, its just another manifestation of that authoritarian drive to dominate people. And you can't dominate people any uh...better...than shooting them, can you.

    Cops abusing authority, abusing citizens is one of the prime reasons they often have so much trouble in minority communities. They don't just create mistrust, they create hatred. The LAPD produced the Watts Riots in 1965 and almost 30 years later with none of their racist violence abated they created the Rodney King verdict riots. You cannot plug up a volcano forever. Sooner or later it will explode. And in a country as well armed as America that is really, really asking for trouble. So weed out the abusive authoritarian personalities. Maybe thats why Zimmerman never made the force. Through this whole mess the Dylan song, "Its A Hard Rain Gonna Fall" keeps going through my head.

  21. #671

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Had the Randi Rhodes show on the computer this afternoon, KTLK, she had some interesting facts on Zimmerman: girlfriend got a restraining order against him because he beat her up, a female cousin claims he molested her, and his mom is a "loud and proud" racist. Somehow the so minor dirt about Martin having smoked a little herb came out but this much more damaging info on Zimmerman didn't. Oh I do smell a rat.

    Back in the early days of the AFL the Chargers were scheduled to play Houston at Rice Stadium which at the time was segregated, the team said they would not play unless the stadium was integrated, so it was. I think it would be nice if beginning with Black athletes and including sympathetic white athletes, Florida just got boycotted. No more Marlins, Dolphins, Devil Rays. Just reverse the verdict in the Zimmerman case. Why care about the Constitution banning double jeopardy, so what, it also proclaims equal protection under the law and if thats going to be ignored, ignoring the double jeopardy clause is just as legitimate. In fact, its necessary. Fit Florida with a really unpleasant situation. They didn't care who they hurt, give it right back to them and see how they like it. Maybe they won't feel so free to murder Black teenagers if it puts their precious Dolphins and the rest of their pro teams out of business. Maybe get the college athletes to join in, too.

  22. #672
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Had the Randi Rhodes show on the computer this afternoon, KTLK, she had some interesting facts on Zimmerman: girlfriend got a restraining order against him because he beat her up, a female cousin claims he molested her, and his mom is a "loud and proud" racist. Somehow the so minor dirt about Martin having smoked a little herb came out but this much more damaging info on Zimmerman didn't. Oh I do smell a rat.
    As I understand it, our legal system does not allow a jury to consider whether an accused is a good person or a bad person, in deciding its verdict, much less whether his mother is a racist, or his cousin once claimed molestation, or his former girlfriend is mad at him. The jury is supposed to decide whether he actually did the crime he is charged with. That's all.
    Greg

  23. #673
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
    The jury is supposed to decide whether he actually did the crime he is charged with. That's all.
    Zimmerman was not charged with violating "stand your ground" law, but juror B37 said that in jury deliberations they did consider whether Zimmerman violated "stand your ground." The jury DID NOT do their job. They did more than "that's all."

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  24. #674

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Actually character witnesses are fairly common. Zimmerman was marketed as a harmless chubby cop wanna be, but I think knowing that he has a history of beating up women and molesting girls gives valuable insight into his personality. Call me old fashioned but to me hitting women is never right, doing that marks a man as the worst kind of scum. The only lower form of life is a molester but Zimmerman seems to have had that ground covered too. It would have been nice if the jury could have known that about his personality. However those genteel white (and one hispanic) racists would have approved the murder of Martin no matter what; he was Black and we all know "those a. holes always get away with it." In Zimmerman's words. Even bleeping out Zimmerman's hateful obscenities hid his real personality from the public. I have never caught Randi in any errors, she is meticulous in checking her facts before she puts them on the air, these accusations against Zimmerman are mighty incendiary, I don't think she would have aired them without firm confirmation.
    Last edited by Kalalau; July 20th, 2013 at 03:26 AM.

  25. #675
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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