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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #701

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Some people seem to be arguing that Trayvon Martin had no right to defend himself against a person following him, who had a record of molestation. Seems like a rather heavy burden to be placing on minors, to have to submit to whatever whatever adults are about want to do with them and if they fight back the adult is justified in blowing the kid away.

  2. #702

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Some people seem to be arguing that Trayvon Martin had no right to defend himself against a person following him.
    Those people are known as kooks.

  3. #703
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Those people are known as kooks.
    Another way of putting it, they are known as "gun nuts."

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  4. #704

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    Another way of putting it, they are known as "gun nuts."
    I've been called a gun nut, yet I'm not a kook about Trayvon.

    GRANNY GRAB YER GUN, NOW!

  5. #705
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    I found Andrew Branca's (self defense lawyer) commentary on Day 5 testimony to be interesting, since it involves the best eyewitness to the fight (John Good).

    Massad Ayoob's (self defense expert witness and part time law enforcement) opinion on Martin's ability to cause great bodily harm.
    His opinion on the veracity of Zimmerman's account.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
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    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  6. #706

    Default Re: Gun Control

    A guy with a record as a molester is following your kid. If for whatever reason a fight breaks out, say your kid starts to defend him or herself against an assault, he or she is allowed to continue living as long as they don't start to win the fight. Winning the fight cancels your oxygen consumption permit. Makes perfect sense in Florida. It could be funny if it weren't real and really tragic. So tell your kid to give in? It beats getting shot. But then some molesters believe in eliminating the primary witness. Seems like the only answer is to arm your child.

  7. #707
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Seems like the only answer is to arm your child.
    That is exactly what the NRA and their gun nut advocates want. They are now marketing lethal weapons to children 5 years old. I have previously posted some of their ads in this thread. Anything to make a buck. This is not only cynical but sick. Turn over a rock and see the vermin.

    The five-year-old boy (yes: five) in Kentucky who accidentally shot and killed his two-year-old sister (yes: two) did so with “My First Rifle,” a .22-caliber Cricket specifically made and marketed in several colors for “youth shooters” by Milton, Pa.-based Keystone Sporting Arms, making “quality firearms for America‘s youth.” In 2008, it sold 60,000 Crickett and “Chipmunk” rifles. Its website features a “Kids‘ Corner” with smiling pictures of children with their guns, and testimonials from their grateful, gun-buying parents. Teach your children well. Or is it too late?



    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  8. #708
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    A guy with a record as a molester is following your kid. If for whatever reason a fight breaks out, say your kid starts to defend him or herself against an assault, he or she is allowed to continue living as long as they don't start to win the fight.
    Marc MacYoung is a former LA street thug turned self defense trainer. He's been on both sides of the law. Check out his definition of "self defense".

    Also worth reading is the difference between "fighting" vs "self defense" and the legal ramifications.

    Whether you're pro-gun, anti-gun, or just plain living in a society with laws, you should educate yourself about self defense law.



    Seems like the only answer is to arm your child.
    Arm your child with a cell phone and teach them to call 911.

    Why didn't Martin call 911?



    One reason Zimmerman was able to avoid a manslaughter conviction was because Martin was dead and unable to give his own account (I also think mounting Zimmerman on the sidewalk gave Zimmerman more legal leeway). If Martin had called 911, stayed on the line with them during the altercation, there would have been more evidence against Zimmerman.
    Last edited by MyopicJoe; July 23rd, 2013 at 08:41 AM.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  9. #709
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Thanks for sharing this image, Matapule:



    The father in this picture is showing good practices with his daughter. She has proper eye and ear protection. She has her finger off the trigger. The father has physical command of where the rifle is pointing.

    It appears this father is a responsible gun owner. Let's hope he raises this young girl to be one also. My idea of "gun control"



    Rules for gun handling:

    1) keep your finger off the trigger until you consciously decide to shoot
    2) do not point your firearm at something/someone you're not willing to destroy
    3) treat all firearms as if they were loaded
    4) be aware of what's behind your target, what will and won't stop a bullet



    Rules for children who find a gun:

    1) stop
    2) don't touch
    3) leave the area
    4) tell an adult
    Last edited by MyopicJoe; July 23rd, 2013 at 08:48 AM.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  10. #710

    Default Re: Gun Control

    And I thought "Toddlers & Tiaras" was bad! Maybe kids should just be armed with stun guns, they can graduate up to real bullets when they are a bit more mature, like 9.

  11. #711

    Default Re: Gun Control

    A sidelight to be sure but it is reported that many of the killers Pol Pot used to murder over a million class enemies were in the 13 year old bracket. Thats a wonderful age to give a child an automatic weapon.

  12. #712
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    For those who are curious, a collection of court documents related to the Zimmerman trial can be found here. The website is pro-Zimmerman, so I suppose they could choose not to present all the evidence, but I assume they can't falsify anything without getting in trouble. A bunch of documents are redacted (parts blacked out by markers), but I assume that was done by the courts or someone other than the website.

    Anyways, some interesting things are cell phone pictures and crime scene photos.




    Massad Ayoob's explanation of why certain facts about Martin's past weren't allowed to be shown to the jury.

    The reason tracks to something found in the Federal Rules of Evidence in the Rule 404 series, particularly Rule 404(b). Among other things, it means that prior bad acts of the person you harmed, IF THEY WERE NOT KNOWN TO YOU AT THE TIME YOU HARMED HIM, cannot be used by you to defend inflicting that harm. This is because, being unknown to you, they had no part in your decision to act as you did, and it is that act and that decision for which you are being judged at trial.


    Massad mentions "evidence" of Martin punching a bus driver. I did a small amount of Googling and it seems that "evidence" was someone sending Martin a text message saying something along the lines of 'you didn't tell me you punched a bus driver'. Perhaps technically "evidence" but nothing I would consider strong.

    Being a minor, I don't know if any police records, if they exist, would be made public.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  13. #713
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    One self defense lawyer's opinion of why "stand your ground" didn't apply to Marissa Alexander:

    Here, if we consider the facts in a manner most favorable to Alexander, there was an initial physical, non-deadly conflict with her husband. Perhaps we can even assume that her husband was the aggressor in that conflict. In that case he may well bear legal liability for that non-deadly fight.

    Alexander, however, took things to another level when she retrieved her firearm (MJ: she leaves her husband, goes to the garage, and returns). She escalated a non-deadly confrontation to a deadly confrontation. In the eyes of the law this is effectively a second, separate fight, one in which Alexander was the aggressor.

    And how does being the aggressor affect one’s right to “stand-your-ground”? It obliterates it. Florida’s “stand-your-ground” provision, 776.013(3), applies ONLY to “[a] person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked . . . ”


    Here Alexander WAS engaged in criminal activity–she initiated a deadly force confrontation–and it was not she who was attacked but she who was doing the attacking. The Court tossing out stand-your-ground in this Florida case was not even a tough call, as “stand-your-ground” was inapplicable on its face.
    At some point Alexander walked past Gray and the children into the garage, where she obtained a gun. She then fired the gun at, or in the direction of, Gray and the two children.
    Yeah, her husband hit her in the past, but at that specific moment he didn't. The law's a tricky thing. The court doesn't care what you think the law means. Ignorance is no defense, especially when it comes to self defense.


    Read "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob


    A more modern read is "The Law of Self Defense" by Andrew Branca, though I haven't read that one myself.
    Last edited by MyopicJoe; July 25th, 2013 at 01:40 AM.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  14. #714

    Default Re: Gun Control

    In an interview with ABC Juror B 29 in the Zimmerman trial admits Zimmerman "got away with murder". She said that under the law and the jury instructions it was impossible to find Zimmerman guilty. We are often told this is a society of laws, not men, like thats something good. Given that the laws are good, its fine. But everything that happened under the Nazis was legal under their legal system, everything that happened in the USSR was legal under its laws, and now we have Florida and other states blessing murder if the t's are crossed and the i's dotted. She said she feels guilty, can't sleep at night, or eat. I wouldn't feel good either, setting a murderer loose. But then, I would not set a murderer loose for any reason including that the victim was a Black teenager.

  15. #715

    Default Re: Gun Control

    6 shot in Florida hostage standoff. The killer should have claimed self defense.

  16. #716
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    6 shot in Florida hostage standoff. The killer should have claimed self defense.
    Obviously, there are not enough guns in Florida, otherwise this sort of thing wouldn't happen there. The shooter was just "standing his ground." The shooter should have just surrendered to the police and claimed he was being "threatened" by the six people he shot. With the way the laws are written in Florida they have to take his word for it since anyone who could contradict his story is now dead. What a brain dead State. The governor and a majority of the State legislators are a bunch of gun nuts.

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  17. #717

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    With the way the laws are written in Florida they have to take his word for it since anyone who could contradict his story is now dead.
    The law was enacted because Florida was becoming the assault/murder capital of the Nation and a few horrific cases tipped the scales.
    Now, if Trayvon had been carrying and able to even the playing field a bit more against his armed stalker he'd probably be alive today.

    GUNS FOR ALL, NOW!

  18. #718
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    The law was enacted because Florida was becoming the assault/murder capital of the Nation and a few horrific cases tipped the scales.
    But that's like years ago when they went wholesale stupid about barring incoming calls to a pay phone because a few were using them for drug deals.

    Now, if Trayvon had been carrying and able to even the playing field a bit more against his armed stalker he'd probably be alive today.
    Yep, arming 16 year olds will certainly bring the murder rate down!

    GUNS FOR ALL, NOW!
    Yep, like Florida doesn't have enough guns already. The SYG law certainly prevented Florida's "horrific case" yesterday Gun Nut!

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  19. #719

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule View Post
    Yep, arming 16 year olds will certainly bring the murder rate down!

    Yep, like Florida doesn't have enough guns already. The SYG law certainly prevented Florida's "horrific case" yesterday Gun Nut!
    It'll certainly drive the seriousness of the situation home and eventually the murder rate will come down.

    Who in the crowd that was hit or nearby had a gun to thwart or return fire for protection/defense/offense? None? Too bad for them, I'll bet they wish it'd been different now, don't you?

    GUN NUTS NEED PROTECTION TOO, NOW!

  20. #720

    Default Re: Gun Control

    It would also help a LOT if the War On Drugs were moderated. Laws of supply & demand = gigantic amounts of money at stake, it produces violence in Mexico and it certainly produced violence in Fla during the cocaine years. Given the laws, given the economics, what could you possibly expect but that drug dealers would arm themselves as heavily as possible. This all happened before, during Prohibition. But the only thing we learn from history is that we don't learn from history.

  21. #721

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Notes From All Over...

    http://cleveland.cbslocal.com/2013/0...-safety-class/


    And behold, AG Holder is advocating moderating the War On Drugs. Really, America Land Of The Free should not have 2.5 million people behind bars, more than China or Russia, known dictatorships. Especially since drugs are usually a victimless crime. And even if drugs absolutely must be punished, some public service weekends or at most a couple of weeks in jail would seem sufficient. The last thing we need is a profit driven prison industry lobbying for harsher & harsher laws to roll up their profits. So he will be called soft on crime. Coddling drug lords.

  22. #722

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Wow, just too precious!

    gawker.com/lawmaker-leading-call-for-arming-teachers-accidentally-1216609648

  23. #723
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    Lightbulb Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Wow, just too precious!

    gawker.com/lawmaker-leading-call-for-arming-teachers-accidentally-1216609648
    Instead of deadly force, there are weapons that shoot darts connected to wires to give an electric shock that disables an opponent.

    NON-LETHAL!
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  24. #724

    Default Re: Gun Control

    That is a seriously superb idea! Gunshots are not that easy to recover from, but electrical shock (mild) or sedative darts would be a ton less serious medically. The Zimmerman case would have been a nothing if Zimmerman had shot Martin with a sedative dart. A seriously excellent idea. Ramp down deadliness as much as possible across the board.

  25. #725
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    The Zimmerman case would have been a nothing if Zimmerman had shot Martin with a sedative dart.
    It s now revealed that Zimmerman apparently had a fight with his wife the day that Trayvon was killed. She wasn't even at home that night. She had retreated to her parents house. This would certainly go to Zimmerman's state of mind that night.

    It appears that Zimmerman and his wife are now separated and she refuses to deny that a divorce is possible. Zimmerman has a history of sexually abusing women and physical assault on both men and women. He is an ongoing threat to society and he is now armed with guns again.

    STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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