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  • Re: Gun Control

    Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
    Decision??? Once again you display your prejudice and ignorance, Matafool. Didn't you ever hear of 'the Draft?'
    Kaonohi friend, make use of the Ignore Feature, and spend your precious moments of life on happier things than arguing with an a$$. I, for one, thank you for your honorable military service, the same as I thank those who have been sent to places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. Peace to you Kaonohi.
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

    Comment


    • Re: Gun Control

      Here are some factoids about guns that have emerged in the last two weeks:

      - The Federal agency, ATF (alcohol, tobacco, and firearms), has not had a director for the last 6 years. An appointment has been blocked by the Teapublican majority in the House

      - The ATF has not had an authorized budget for the last 6 years, again blocked by the Teapublicans in Congress.

      - A majority (more than 50%) of NRA funding comes from small arms manufacturers in the US.

      - 90% of NRA political funding goes to Teapublican candidates and 10% to friendly Democrat candidates.

      - Only 60% of "legal" small arms are registered in the US. Some States only require that pistols are registered while exempting shotguns, rifles, and automatic weapons. Gun "shows" are exempt from registration. Sales on Ebay are exempt, etc.

      - 90% of gun owners own more than one gun.

      - 90% of gun owners are former military or immediate family of ex-military (wives and children).

      - 80% of gun owners had a parent who owned a gun while they were a child.

      - 80% of NRA members vote Teapublican candidates (the rest don't vote or the smallest portion vote Democrat)

      - The average number of guns owned by a gun owner in the US is five.

      - More gun owners have been killed with their own guns than they have killed for self protection (by a factor of something like 5000 to 1)

      - There is no Federal registry of guns. This has been blocked by gun (nut) advocates in Congress.

      - If you sell a gun without requiring registration, it is a Federal misdemeanor. Again, changes to this have been blocked by gun (nut) advocates in Congress.

      - About 80% of all people who are not permitted to have guns, still have them in the house, provided by family members.

      - The Sandy Hook shooter's mother was an irresponsible gun nut. She owned three guns and didn't keep them secured. Unfortunately they were used against her and others and failed to provide her any self defence.


      I'm just getting started here, more to come! The gun insanity is going to stop now.
      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

      Comment


      • Re: Gun Control

        Based on all this crazy logic I'm reading, then it seems obvious we should ban cigarettes (450,000 deaths/year), cars, and McDonalds.

        Wow.
        FutureNewsNetwork.com
        Energy answers are already here.

        Comment


        • Re: Gun Control

          Originally posted by matapule View Post
          We each had the decision to serve in an unjust war in Viet Nam. Those that chose to serve in Viet Nam have to live with themselves.
          Ouch. Hitting a little below the belt, eh? Words can be just as cruel and violent as fists.
          "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
          "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
          "
          Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

          Comment


          • Re: Gun Control

            Originally posted by matapule View Post
            Here are some factoids about guns that have emerged in the last two weeks
            I'll throw in this collection of gun "facts" into the mosh pit. As with all things, take it with a grain of salt. I question some of the selectiveness of the data used, but if I give them the benefit of the doubt, it could be due to the difficulty of comparing yearly reports which can vary greatly (in what data was gathered and how it was reported). It's difficult to make apples-to-apples comparisons over long periods of time.

            The good thing is they cite their sources. If anything, it's a handy way to find out what information is out there. In the UK, I learned about the existence of the British Crime Survey, the Home Office, and the Office for National Statistics.

            Unfortunately, it's a pain in the butt to navigate these websites and find the kind of reports you want. It can be even tougher to compare reports from different years. Oh well.
            "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
            "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
            "
            Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

            Comment


            • Re: Gun Control

              Originally posted by matapule View Post
              - 90% of gun owners are former military or immediate family of ex-military (wives and children).
              This one intrigues me, in that one concern I have is that gun owners undergo safety and usage training - which I would have assumed is part of military training. Perhaps my assumption is in error, and HT'ers with military backgrounds can clarify.
              Originally posted by timkona View Post
              Based on all this crazy logic I'm reading, then it seems obvious we should ban cigarettes (450,000 deaths/year), cars, and McDonalds.
              As I think I have stated earlier, as much as I am not a fan of gun usage by the general non-hunting populace, and as much as I recognize that "a world without weapons" will not exist, I am not personally advocating banning guns, only a long-overdue increase in the control and regulation of their use. Much as we already do with cigarettes (with a decrease in per-capita deaths since stronger controls have been in place) and cars. And alcohol, and soon (in states such as the one in which I reside), marijuana. People have been after McDonalds for years, though they are more a factor in health and obesity issues than they are in direct deaths - so that's a wee stretch, but I get the point.

              I favor stronger gun laws in this society. That doesn't make me "anti-gun" any more than respect for traffic regulations makes me "anti-car." I think this is yet another piece of silly logic-stretching that we've heard quite enough of, thank you. And it's nice to see you posting yet again, Tim.

              Comment


              • Re: Gun Control

                Originally posted by matapule View Post
                Guns are related to violence, shoes aren't.
                Obviously, you've never met an angry woman with stilettos!

                Violence comes in many forms and uses many tools.
                "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                "
                Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                Comment


                • Re: Gun Control

                  Cigarettes should be and are being discouraged. Its just plain wrong to permit a product that kills over 400,000 people a year. Again, its such a remarkable commentary on this society that cannabis, which does not hurt people, is illegal and is relentlessly pursued by the law and countless tens of thousands are locked up for it but guns with however many thousands of deaths and cigarettes with over 400,000 a year: just fine, no problema! I think the gvt goes after the harmless things to divert attention from the fact that it will never go after real problems because it is the problem industries that finance congress. It makes the public think law enforcement is actually doing something useful. Sad. A woman I know from No. Carolina agrees tobacco is a big problem but points out that so many have their livelihoods dependent on it. Merchants of death indeed. Its one of America's few successful profitable exports: exporting death. Wasn't it Jefferson who said if there is a just God the country would be in a lot of trouble. And so many of those tobacco people are good God fearin Christians, but I doubt if their pose fools God even if they succeed in fooling themselves.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Gun Control

                    Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                    I'll throw in this collection of gun "facts" into the mosh pit. As with all things, take it with a grain of salt. I question some of the selectiveness of the data used, but if I give them the benefit of the doubt, it could be due to the difficulty of comparing yearly reports which can vary greatly (in what data was gathered and how it was reported). It's difficult to make apples-to-apples comparisons over long periods of time.
                    I agree. I tried to read all 99 pages but only got to page 35 and gave up. The writing was tedious an repetitive with the same errors in analysis. For example, let's look at Mexico, ....and I do have some first hand experience there. The author of the subject article lists Mexico as a country with strict gun control yet high rates of gun violence. That is true, but you have to look at the underlying reasons for those statistics, analyze them, and make an objective determination, which the author doesn't. Gun violence in Mexico is high because it is one drug cartel killing the other with illegal guns, most of them purchased or stolen in the US. As a laid back resident of Mexico, I have a lower chance of being a victim of gun violence than I do as a laid back resident of California. In fact, a US resident has a one in 240 chance of being a victim of gun violence, the highest rate in the industrialized nations of the world.

                    Unfortunately, it's a pain in the butt to navigate these websites and find the kind of reports you want. It can be even tougher to compare reports from different years. Oh well.
                    Again I agree. That is why we need a director of the ATF, funding for the ATF, national registration of all firearms with the ATF. Then we demand that the ATF keep and present comprehensive statics for gun violence in the US that is easy to navigate and to compare from year to year. Contact the gun nut Congressmen and tell them to populate and fund the ATF.
                    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                    Comment


                    • Re: Gun Control

                      Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                      I'll throw in this collection of gun "facts" into the mosh pit.
                      Thank you, I guess. Looking at the table of contents, though, it appears to be a pile of prejudiced sillinesses. Under the very first "myth" I see this: "Contrasting the data shows zero correlation between the availability of guns and the overall homicide rate." But it obviously shows no such thing. Even just judging the chart given impressionistically, without trying to derive a correlation figure, makes it apparent that Northern Ireland is an outlier, and otherwise, homicides do indeed go down with decreased availability of guns.

                      I stopped reading at this point.

                      Edit: Well, after writing the above, I did go back and read the next section, "Myth: Britain has strict gun control and a low crime rate", and the "facts" listed which are supposed to cast some doubt on the "myth". Actually, even supposing the 16 putative facts are true, not one is relevant to the claim. Not even one.
                      Last edited by GregLee; December 30, 2012, 02:10 PM.
                      Greg

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                      • Re: Gun Control

                        Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                        This one intrigues me, in that one concern I have is that gun owners undergo safety and usage training - which I would have assumed is part of military training. Perhaps my assumption is in error, and HT'ers with military backgrounds can clarify.
                        It would be good to hear from people who are currently or have recently been in the military.

                        "Military" doesn't always mean the "best" or even "good". Sometimes military training is "expedient", and military equipment is "produced by the lowest bidder".

                        More importantly, mere training doesn't guarantee behavior. Social culture has more of an effect on behavior.

                        As an analogy, take getting your driver's license. The written and driving exams test your knowledge of safe driving. Students will drive safely, for the sake of passing the exam. Once they have their license, the level of safe driving drops down to what's socially acceptable (i.e. what they see other drivers doing, how strict law enforcement is, etc.).

                        I've seen military people at the range show excellent muzzle and trigger finger discipline; they're squared away. Then you have military people who are sloppy and cocky; you keep an eye on them. Their level of safety depends on what's considered acceptable in their unit, community, etc.

                        Gun owners/users have a big influence on each other. You need to be mindful of your actions, because you're always a role model. You need to firmly, but politely, correct dangerous behavior. For strangers, it's better if the Range Safety Officer does it.



                        I'm on the fence, when it comes to mandatory training; with a lean towards having it. There are some gun owners who are an embarrassment. Unsafe handling and ownership makes things worse for the community.

                        On the other hand, required training can be used as a barrier. One can set the standards so high and make the requirements so onerous, that you effectively have a ban (much like using taxes).

                        Here's a former conceal carry instructor who has a no-mandatory-training opinion.



                        I would like to see more mandatory training. The question is how much and who gets to decide?

                        In the end, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Social pressure is the most effective, IMO, and that has to come from other gun owners...though recently I've seen movies, TV, and video games depicting better trigger finger discipline, which I believe helps.
                        "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                        "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                        "
                        Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                        Comment


                        • Re: Gun Control

                          Originally posted by matapule View Post
                          For example, let's look at Mexico, ....and I do have some first hand experience there...As a laid back resident of Mexico, I have a lower chance of being a victim of gun violence than I do as a laid back resident of California.
                          Cool. Having no experience with Mexico, I only have what little I hear from the media. From how it's depicted, it sounds like there are murders and kidnappings going on all time. On This American Life, they talked about a radio station dedicated to families sending messages to long term hostages (I think it was Mexico, but I could be wrong).

                          So, Matapule, do you think Mexico (now) is much different from the Mexico from when you lived there? Is the media painting an exaggerated picture? Are the problems only in certain areas? Can a Mexican citizen avoid the cartels or does trouble find them?
                          Last edited by MyopicJoe; December 30, 2012, 03:50 PM.
                          "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                          "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                          "
                          Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                          Comment


                          • Re: Gun Control

                            Originally posted by MyopicJoe View Post
                            Social pressure is the most effective, IMO, and that has to come from other gun owners....
                            And the largest representative of gun owners, the NRA, proposes a solution that puts more guns in grammar schools. Despicable!
                            Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                            People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                            Comment


                            • Re: Gun Control

                              Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                              I think the gvt goes after the harmless things to divert attention from the fact that it will never go after real problems because it is the problem industries that finance congress. It makes the public think law enforcement is actually doing something useful.
                              Sounds right to me.
                              "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                              "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                              "
                              Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                              Comment


                              • Re: Gun Control

                                Originally posted by matapule View Post
                                And the largest representative of gun owners, the NRA, proposes a solution that puts more guns in grammar schools. Despicable!
                                Forget the NRA. I'm thinking more grassroots than that. At least amongst the gun owners I've met, I rarely hear them gush about the NRA. It's still an impersonal organization. They don't have the emotional/social effect I'm thinking of.
                                Last edited by MyopicJoe; December 30, 2012, 03:48 PM.
                                "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                                "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                                "
                                Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                                Comment

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