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Thread: Gun Control

  1. #301
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    No gun control law has ever been overturned by the U.S. Supreme Court on Second Amendment grounds. Such laws include federal bans on machine guns and semiautomatic assault weapons as well as local community bans on the sale and possession of handguns.



    Every federal Court of Appeals that has considered the meaning of the Second Amendment has held that it protects the right of states to maintain a militia, not an individual right to own a gun.


    - In 1981 the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals stated that "possession of a handgun by individuals is not part of the right to keep and bear arms."


    - In 1976 the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals noted "the erroneous supposition that the Second Amendment is concerned with the rights of individuals rather than those of the states."
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  2. #302
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    The following has been written by an anonymous blogger. (S)He is anonymous because (s)he wishes to avoid personal death threats by anonymous gun nuts.

    ************************************************** **

    MYTH:
    The crime rate has been skyrocketing in the UK and Australia since stricter gun control laws were enacted in 1996-1997.
    TRUTH: The truth is that the UK police has changed its system for recording crime since implementing new gun control laws. This change in recording crime made it appear that the crime rate went up. The British Crime Survey, which was unaffected by this change, shows a decrease in crime. Go to the section under violent crime in the British Crime Survey. "The increase in violent crime recorded by police, in contrast to estimates provided from the BCS, appears to be largely due to increased recording by police forces. Taking into account recording changes, the real trend in violence against the person in 2001/02 is estimated to have been a reduction of around five percent." (from Chapter 6- "Violent Crime in England and Wales")

    Here is a graph from the British Crime Survey. You can see that the gun lobby's claim that violent crime skyrocketed in the England after their 1997 handgun ban is clearly false.


    The claim that following the gun ban Australia experienced big increases in crime has been refuted as an urban legend at www.snopes.com, a website that is devoted to exposing urban legends. "Given this context, any claims based on statistics (even accurate ones) which posit a cause-and-effect relationship between the gun buyback program and increased crime rates because 'criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed' are automatically suspect, since the average Australian citizen didn't own firearms even before the buyback.".

    Australia's homicide rate is lower than the homicide rate in the US and there has been little variation in Australia's homicide rate since their gun buyback. Not surprisingly, the National Rifle Association didn't let the facts get in the way of its claims that stricter gun laws had caused an increase in crime in Australia. Attorney-General of Australia, Daryl Williams, pointed out in letter to Charlton Heston that "firearms are being used less often in murder, attempted murder, assault, sexual assault and armed robbery in 1998 compared with 1997." He also stated in his letter, "The 54 firearm-related homicides in Australia in 1998 equate to a rate of only 0.28 per 100,000 people. I have been advised that this compares to a rate which is in the order of 4 per 100,000 in the United States. Now that you have the facts, I request that you withdraw immediately the misleading information from your latest campaign."

    MYTH: Keeping guns in the home increases personal protection.
    TRUTH: Obviously, self defense is not a good argument against gun control since those who own firearms are actually more likely to be victims of homicide. Two studies published in The New England Journal of Medicine revealed that keeping a gun in the home increases the risk of both suicide and homicide. Keeping a gun in the home makes it 2.7 times more likely that someone will be a victim of homicide in your home (in almost all cases the victim is either related to or intimately acquainted with the murderer) and 4.8 times more likely that someone will commit suicide. Guns make it more likely that a suicide attempt will be successful than if other means were used such as sleeping pills.

    MYTH:"Guns don't kill, people kill people" is a good argument against gun control.
    TRUTH: This pro-gun argument makes about as much sense as claiming that "glasses don't see, eyes see" is a good argument against wearing glasses. Glasses are a tool which help people to see just as guns are a tool that help people to kill and injure others. Empirical research indicates that firearms increase the chances that a crime will turn deadly. A study done by the National Commission on the Causes and Prevention of Violence reported that a victim is about five times more likely to survive if an attacker is armed with a knife rather than a gun. Furthermore, The International Crime Victim Survey concluded that there is a correlation between gun ownership and an increase in both homicide and suicide. "The present study, based on a sample of eighteen countries, confirms the result of previous work based on the 14 countries surveyed during the first International Crime Survey. Substantial correlations were found between gun ownership and gun-related as well as total homicide and suicide rates. Widespread gun ownership has not been found to reduce the likelihood of fatal events committed with other means. Thus, people do not turn to knives and other potentially lethal weapons less often when more guns are available, but more guns usually means more victims of homicide and suicide.".

    (part two in post below)
    Last edited by matapule; January 12th, 2013 at 06:54 AM.
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  3. #303
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    MYTH: Guns are used defensively 2.5 million times each year in the US.
    TRUTH: Gary Kleck conducted a survey which concluded that 2.5 million people in the US each year use guns to defend themselves. One percent of the US population is between 2 and 3 million. So if only one percent of the survey respondents had answered the survey dishonestly that would make the results of the survey inaccurate by millions. According to the NCVS (National Crime Victim Survey) guns are used defensively less than 100,000 times each year. The NCVS surveyed over 90,000 people. In contrast, Kleck only surveyed about 5,000 people. Thus it would be reasonable to conclude that the NCVS provides a more reliable estimate of the number of defensive gun uses in the US. An article published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern)87 (1997): 1430 revealed that using methods similar to Kleck's, it could be concluded that nearly 20 million Americans have seen aircraft from another planet and that one million Americans have had contact with aliens.

    "Since a small percentage of people may report virtually anything on a telephone survey, there are serious risks of overestimation in using such surveys to measure rare events. The problem becomes particularly severe when the issue has even a remote possibility of positive social desirability response bias. Consider the responses to a national random-digit-dial telephone survey of over 1500 adults conducted in May 1994 by ABC News and the Washington Post. [34] One question asked: 'Have you yourself ever seen anything that you believe was a spacecraft from another planet?' [Page 1438] Ten percent of respondents answered in the affirmative. These 150 individuals were then asked, 'Have you personally ever been in contact with aliens from another planet or not?' and 6% answered 'Yes.'By extrapolating to the national population, we might conclude that almost 20 million Americans have seen spacecraft from another planet, and over a million have been in personal contact with aliens from other planets. That more than a million Americans had contact with aliens would be incredible news--but not the kind actively publicized by reputable scientists."
    In fact, if the same survey methodology that Gary Kleck used to measure defensive gun use is used to measure criminal gun use, many more people will report that they have been a victim of a gun crime according to a report by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center: "After controlling for other aspects of the surveys, these surveys indicate that criminal gun use is far more common that self-defense gun use. For example, in May 2000, a Washington Post national random-digit dial survey asked 'Not counting military service, have you ever been threatened with a gun or shot at?' Twenty-three percent (23%) said yes. In that same month (May 2000), a Gallup national random-digit dial survey asked 'Not including military combat, have you ever used a gun to defend yourself either by firing it or threatening to fire it?' Seven percent (7%) of respondents said yes."

    MYTH: A decrease in crime in Kennesaw, Georgia after it passed a law which required people to keep a firearm in their homes shows that guns reduce crime.
    TRUTH: Philip J. Cook and Jens Ludwig explain, "The case of Kennesaw, Georgia, which adopted an ordinance in 1982 requiring every household to keep a gun, has been prominent. There have been several published analyses of the burglary trends in Kennesaw around the time of the ordinance, with contradictory results. In any event, this is not a good test of the deterrence hypothesis, since the ordinance was purely symbolic. Most homes in Kennesaw already had a gun before the ordinance, and it seems unlikely the ordinance had any effect on prevalence since there was no penalty specified in the law for refusal to comply." ("Guns and Burglary", Evaluating Gun Policy, pages 81-82)

    The gun ownership rate of Kennesaw could have actually decreased because there has been a big increase in the population of Kennesaw since 1982, and it's not certain how many of the new residents abide by the ordinance. Nationwide the gun ownership rate has decreased according to the General Social Survey. So if Kennesaw has followed nationwide trends the gun ownership rate in Kennesaw would have also declined.

    MYTH: People in Switzerland are heavily armed. There is an assault weapon in every Swiss home.
    TRUTH: It's true that Swiss soldiers are required to keep their assault rifles at home. How big is the Swiss Army? 400,000. There are about 3 million Swiss households. 400,000/3,000,000= 0.133. Therefore, there is a military assault rifle in about 13% of Swiss homes. Switzerland also has rather strict gun control laws. In Switzerland a permit is required in order to purchase a weapon (The permit shows that you are at least 18 and don't have a criminal record). A permit is also required to carrry a weapon. Such a permit is mostly issued to people who work in security-type occupations. To obtain this permit, you have to demonstrate that you need to carry a weapon and that you know how to handle a gun safely and have knowledge of the law regarding firearms use. Soldiers in the Swiss Army are required to store their military weapons at home under lock and key and to undergo regular training. Strict gun laws in Switzerland minimize the dangers of gun ownership. However, such dangers can not be completely eliminated as illustrated by the case of Friedrich Leibacher who rushed into a session of parliament in the Swiss town of Zug. He used his Swiss Army assault rifle and a grenade to murder fourteen people. Eleven of these people were lawmakers.

    MYTH: The 1976 handgun ban in Washington D.C. caused an increase in crime.
    TRUTH: The handgun ban has prevented 47 deaths each year Gun control has saved lives. Let's look at a graph that displays information about the homicide rate in the District of Columbia a decade before the ban and a decade after. There are random fluctuations in the crime rate from year to year so it's best to look at homicide data from many years. In the decade preceding the ban, the homicide rate exceeded 35 per 100,000 4 times. In the decade following the ban this happened only once. The average homicide rate of the ten years that followed the ban was lower than the homicide rate of the previous decade. Was this part of a general decrease in homicide that would have happened without the ban? If that were so you would expect the non-gun homicide rate to have declined as well as the gun homicide rate. However, there was only a statistically significant decrease in the number of homicides that involved firearms.



    MYTH: If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns.
    TRUTH: If you outlaw guns, very few criminals will have guns. In America guns start out legal. Then they enter the black market one way or the other. So if you have less legal guns then there will less guns entering the black market and consequently less outlaws owning guns. Think about it. Nations with very strict gun control laws such as the UK, Australia, and Japan have much lower gun crime rates than the US. The most probable explanation for this is that criminals in the US have much greater access to guns due to less gun control. Saying "If you outlaw guns only the outlaws will have guns" is very misleading and completely absurd. If you outlaw guns, less outlaws will have guns. Would you rather have more or less outlaws owning guns? The answer is obvious.

    MYTH:Gun ownership is a protection against political tyranny.
    TRUTH: Private ownership of guns was very common under Saddam Hussein's regime.It certainly didn't protect the Iraqi people against political tyranny. Gun ownership was legalized in Germany in 1928, five years before Hitler rose to power. Despite the claims of pro-gun activists, gun ownership did nothing to stop a tyrant like Hitler from seizing power. In 1938, Germany's gun laws were relaxed except in the case of Jews. Although the gun lobby has tried to associate racism with gun control, white supremacists have often praised the Nazis for being pro-gun and have opposed gun control. An example of that is this quote: "If you register your gun with anybody, you're a nut! When the conspiracy comes for your firearm, give it to 'em like this grand dragon is going to - right between the eyes." -Klu Klux Klan (Richmond Times- Dispatch, July 5, 1967)
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  4. #304
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    The NRA and the gun nut coalition have successfully lobbied Congress to restrict any funding of gun violence research.. The NRA wants all gun violence research to be conducted by and disseminated by themselves.

    "The federal Centers for Disease Control has cut firearms safety research by 96 percent since the mid-1990s, according to one estimate. Congress, pushed by the gun lobby, in 1996 put restrictions on CDC funding of gun research into the budget. Restrictions on other agencies were added in later years.

    The NRA, the main lobbyist for gun rights, has taken credit for the research halt. "These junk science studies and others like them are designed to provide ammunition for the gun control lobby by advancing the false notion that legal gun ownership is a danger to the public health instead of an inalienable right," it said in 2011."

    "Congress in 1996 nearly cut the CDC budget by $2.6 million, the amount the agency spent on firearms research at the time, researchers say. The funds were later restored, but a restriction was added to the budget and remains.

    "None of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control," the budget read.

    Similar language was added to the budget in 2011 for the National Institute of Health and other federal health agencies.

    Officials have largely pulled the plug on gun research."

    The NRA, Gun Owners of America, and other gun nut organizations are essentially terrorist organizations operating openly within the confines of the United States. It is time to shine a spotlight on these organizations that promote sedition and their members.
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  5. #305
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    The report that Hitler and the Nazi Party took away the German people's right to bear arms is a total lie. In fact,


    University of Chicago law professor Bernard Harcourt explored this myth in depth in a 2004 article published in the Fordham Law Review. As it turns out, the Weimar Republic, the German government that immediately preceded Hitler’s, actually had tougher gun laws than the Nazi regime. After its defeat in World War I, and agreeing to the harsh surrender terms laid out in the Treaty of Versailles, the German legislature in 1919 passed a law that effectively banned all private firearm possession, leading the government to confiscate guns already in circulation. In 1928, the Reichstag relaxed the regulation a bit, but put in place a strict registration regime that required citizens to acquire separate permits to own guns, sell them or carry them.


    The 1938 law signed by Hitler that LaPierre (NRA) mentions in his book basically does the opposite of what he says it did. “The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition,” Harcourt wrote. Meanwhile, many more categories of people, including Nazi party members, were exempted from gun ownership regulations altogether, while the legal age of purchase was lowered from 20 to 18, and permit lengths were extended from one year to three years.
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  6. #306

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Blahdiblahblah, just leave me and my right to bear arms so I can match the bad guys with equal firepower ALONE!
    Deal with the criminals and social problems sufficiently and for good, then we can talk.

    Your friendly "gun nut!!!!", who doesn't even own a gun and wishes he'd never need one.

  7. #307
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    Exclamation Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by matapule
    Every federal Court of Appeals that has considered the meaning of the Second Amendment has held that it protects the right of states to maintain a militia, not an individual right to own a gun.
    I can't figure out if you are deliberately lying, or just stupid, or both. To wit:

    "In District of Columbia v. Heller, decided in 2008, the Supreme Court embraced the individual-rights view of the Second Amendment. It was a triumph above all for Justice Antonin Scalia, the author of the opinion, but it required him to craft a thoroughly political compromise. In the eighteenth century, militias were proto-military operations, and their members had to obtain the best military hardware of the day. But Scalia could not create, in the twenty-first century, an individual right to contemporary military weapons—like tanks and Stinger missiles. In light of this, Scalia conjured a rule that said D.C. could not ban handguns because “handguns are the most popular weapon chosen by Americans for self-defense in the home, and a complete prohibition of their use is invalid.""

    Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blog...#ixzz2HpZvTOig

    Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_...s_Constitution
    Last edited by Kaonohi; January 12th, 2013 at 07:58 PM.
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  8. #308
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
    I was pleased to learn of the Heller decision, not because I think it's a particularly good thing to grant people the right to bear arms, but because the Constitution does grant them that right. In my opinion, that's the clear meaning of the Constitutional language. Toobin's little essay arguing that Heller results from a right wing Scalia-NRA conspiracy is just weird, and he is wrong in saying that the relevant sentence in the Constitution is ungrammatical. The preceding Constitutional doctrine that the right exists only for members of a state militia never made any sense to me.
    Last edited by GregLee; January 12th, 2013 at 10:02 PM.
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  9. #309

    Default Re: Gun Control

    And Another Thing...can you think of a better formula for producing gun violence than the relatively free availability of guns + the war on drugs? Its like...America makes all these ditheringly stupid decisions and thinks there will be no consequences. If you have a war on drugs and free availability of guns you will get violence, its like tossing a lit match into a barrel of gasoline: what the f do you expect??? And of course it doesn't only apply in the issue of gun violence, but even in something as supposedly rational as national tax policy or the starting & ending of wars. Its as if whatever the issue is, all the petty politics will be considered but never ever the consequences.

  10. #310

    Default Re: Gun Control

    When the constitution was drawn up, the balance of firepower was divided
    almost equally across citizen and state.

    Nowadays the state has enormous firepower and the citizens will

    will need to look to other resources.

    Firepower does not equate to brains.

  11. #311
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lensperson View Post
    When the constitution was drawn up, the balance of firepower was divided
    almost equally across citizen and state.

    Nowadays the state has enormous firepower and the citizens will

    will need to look to other resources.

    Firepower does not equate to brains.
    Very good. Our founder's intention of using civilian arms against our own government gone bad has been trumped.

    Since we are not allowed to have military-grade weapons, we are basically slaves to our government. With the conspiracy theorists hatred for our government, that's likely a good idea.

    If they continue on their hypocritical course, taking away all guns (as Obama promised not to do in his campaign speeches), we will really be no more than slaves to our government.
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  12. #312
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    Unhappy Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
    Every Nation I could find that had implemented strict gun control had more massacres after the restrictions than before, except Australia.
    Boy, I spoke too soon. Australia banned and confiscated all semi-automatic and pump or lever action weapons after their last major massacre.

    Granted, there have been no major school massacres since that ban was enacted and the weapons were confiscated, but:

    Armed Robberies increased 69%

    Gun Assaults increased 28%

    Gun MURDERS increased 19%

    Armed Home Invasions increased 21%


    It's a civilian vs criminal war zone over there.

    This is what Matapule and the Anti-Gun-Nuts are proposing for America:
    More crime, less freedom, carte blanche for criminals. FORGET IT!

    Don't believe it? Get it from the horse's mouth:

    Gun Crime in Australia Increases after Gun Confiscation

    It's a video from an Australian TV network. Watch, and learn.

    Don't listen to the crazies who react with their gut, listen to the people who went through it already.
    Last edited by Kaonohi; January 15th, 2013 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Freedom
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  13. #313

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Fine, you win, armed guards at all our schools, that will absorb whatever money there might have been left to employ teachers. Armed guards at every theater and mall and church and sports event. Did I leave any places out? I guess the right wing people were right all along, America as an all powerful government controlled state. Quite a bit like East Germany back in the good old days. We can even have helicopters (they don't necessarily have to be black!) patrolling over our neighborhoods for our security.

  14. #314

    Default Re: Gun Control

    The American Rifleman, December 1988 (an official publication of the NRA)

    This article is condensed from the law review article Japanese Gun Control, 1993 Asia-Pacific Law Review 26. The law review article is also available in Español. This article is based on Kopel's book The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies? (Prometheus Books, 1992). More articles by Kopel on Japanese gun control are available here.

    For gun controllers, Japan is a dream come true. The law is simple: "No-one shall possess a fire-arm or fire-arms or a sword or swords."

    Japan's crime rate is very low, and its gun crime rate virtually nil. Anti-gun lobbies tout Japan as the kind of nation that America could be, if only we would ban guns. Handgun Control quotes a Japanese newspaper reporter who writes: "It strikes me as clear that there is a distinct correlation between gun control laws and the rate of violent crime. The fewer the guns, the less the violence."

    But while Japan may be a gun-banner's dream, it's a civil libertarian's nightmare. Japan's low crime rate has almost nothing to do with gun control, and everything to do with people control. Americans, used to their own traditions of freedom, would not accept Japan's system of people controls and gun controls.

    Japanese Firearms Laws

    Besides the police and the military, the only group that is allowed to posses guns is hunters, and that possession is strictly circumscribed. The police even check hunters' ammunition inventory, to make sure that there are no unaccounted shells or bullets. Hunting licenses themselves are not particularly difficult to obtain. A prospective hunter must take an official safety course; and then pass a test which covers maintenance and inspection of the hunting gun, methods of loading and unloading cartridges, shooting from various positions, and target practice for stationary and moving objects. The hunting license is valid for three years. Total permit fees for hunting rifles and licenses are 15000 (about 125 American dollars). When not hunting, gun owners must store their weapons in a locker.

    Trap and skeet shooting are also tightly restricted.

    Civilians cannot obtain handgun target licenses. Even possession of a starter's pistol is only allowed under carefully- detailed conditions.

    The section of the gun law which specifies who may be licensed offers no standards, just the vague statement that licenses must be denied "any person (taking into consideration also relatives living with him) who there is reasonable cause to suspect may be dangerous to other persons' lives or properties or to the public peace." Thus, the police have broad discretion in rejecting applicants.

    As in Britain, shotguns are far easier to obtain than rifles. In a nation with half the population of the U.S., there are only 27,000 rifle licensees. There about half a million licensed shotguns, although their numbers have declined by about
    20% in this decade.

    Crime Control

    Japan's strictly-regulated guns play very little part in crime. In 1985, for example, only 35 crimes, including 10 murders, were committed with hunting guns.

    Although handguns are completely forbidden to civilians, they still figure somewhat more often in crime. Handguns were used in 209 crimes in 1985. About 2/3 of all gun crimes are committed by Boryokudan, organized crime groups.

    As the gun-banners point out, the Japanese crime rate is dramatically lower than the U.S. rate. Tokyo, the world's safest major city, suffers muggings at the rate of 40 per year per one
    million inhabitants. New York City's rate is 11,000.

    According to government statistics, Japan has 1.5 homicides per 100,000 citizens each year, and America has 7.9. Actually, the gap between U.S. and Japanese homicide rates is not quite as large as the official statistics indicate. The real Japanese murder rate is about twice the reported rate; unlike the U.S., Japan does not count an attempt to injure, but which accidentally causes death, as a homicide. The F.B.I. also over-counts American murders, by listing the 1,500 - 2,500 legal, self- defense fatal shootings of criminals as illegal homicide. Still, Japan's actual homicide rate is two to three times lower than the U.S. rate. As for handgun murders, the U.S. rate is 200 times higher than Japan's.

  15. #315
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
    I can't figure out if you are deliberately lying, or just stupid, or both.
    I know this is a frustrating debate for all of us, but it doesn't help to call each other "stupid". Of course, I'm not innocent of that either. Just trying to keep things as civil as possible

    Thanks for mentioning D.C. vs Heller. I also believe McDonald vs. Chicago is significant, but I must admit I don't keep on top of judicial matters.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Fine, you win, armed guards at all our schools
    The NRA prez recommending armed guards at schools is silly. It'd be cheaper and probably more effective to allow licensed adults to conceal carry on campus if they wish to. Maybe require a more stringent license.

    The would be mass murder won't know ahead of time if they're hitting a soft target or a hard one. They would have a harder time ambushing any armed adults.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Japan's actual homicide rate is two to three times lower than the U.S. rate.
    Japan has a very different culture from America.

    We all saw how amazingly civil and law abiding the Japanese were after the 2011 tsunami. I doubt Americans would have reacted the same.

    One thing to keep in mind is Japan roughly has twice the suicide rate. Perhaps instead of committing violence against each other, they turn it in on themselves. I guess some would find that favorable.



    As for handgun murders, the U.S. rate is 200 times higher than Japan's.
    Instead of "handgun murders" they should compare "murders". I'm sure the U.S. would still be higher, but not as dramatic.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
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  17. #317

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Isn't the thought of armed guards at every school, mall, church, theater, sports event, street, etc, even an issue, a concern? It is sooooo ironic that the conservatives are the people advocating this, being just fine with it, after all this horror talk about black helicopters and intrusive Big Guvmint, its Opposite World! So Orwellian, freedom is slavery, war is peace, ignorance is strength, double think, etc, security is armed guvmint guards watching our every move. East Germany indeed. And its not even a concern. Ho hum, just turning the place into a police state, no worries.

  18. #318
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    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Isn't the thought of armed guards at every school, mall, church, theater, sports event, street, etc, even an issue, a concern? It is sooooo ironic that the conservatives are the people advocating this, being just fine with it, after all this horror talk about black helicopters and intrusive Big Guvmint, its Opposite World! So Orwellian, freedom is slavery, war is peace, ignorance is strength, double think, etc, security is armed guvmint guards watching our every move. East Germany indeed. And its not even a concern. Ho hum, just turning the place into a police state, no worries.
    In my opinion Lopeti, the gun nut libertarians are the ones closer to bringing the Orwellian black helicopters to existence then all us liberals combined. It IS ironic that they are the ones who want to force their point of view from the muzzle of a gun. They would have no problem with the government knocking on your door or my door as long as it was to enforce their vision of America. You are right, THEY are the ones who want more government, not less, including the matter of choice, what is taught in schools, sexual preference, Christian religion in daily law, and what ingredients go into mac salad.

    They lost the last election. They are going to lose on the matter of gun regulation - NY passed significant gun regulations yesterday. They are going to continue to lose until they understand that things are changing within our culture - nationally and internationally.

    Strict gun control now!
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  19. #319
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Kahalu`u Stream
    Posts
    2,932

    Exclamation Re: Gun Control

    Libertarians believe in less government interference, not more.

    Black helicopters and stringent restrictions are Democrat socialism.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  20. #320

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Realistically there will be loads of time when the guards will not be shooting people. Might as well make use of that time productively. They can check our papers, make sure people have the right to be where they are. They could administer on the spot drug and alcohol tests, check for warrants, it could all be integrated with a massive records keeping computer system so suspects could be arrested on the spot. We will all be more secure. Life will be better with the guards.

  21. #321

    Default Re: Gun Control

    My Grandfather lived in Gonzales, Texas and maintained a large ranch there.

    The driveway to the ranch was bumpy gravel track through cactus and barbed wire fences in the scorching heat.


    The Ranch house was fitted with a windmill generator before the electricity was

    expanded to the outer farms on the grid.

    After a while some crooks broke in and took all the guns including the over and unders.

    That area is fascinating and some armadillos dig their holes there.

    Jerry Hall , Mick Jaggers ex wife was born in Gonzales.

  22. #322
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    O'ahu
    Posts
    1,309

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lensperson View Post
    After a while some crooks broke in and took all the guns including the over and unders.
    I'm curious about how/if those firearms were secured. Something gun owners don't think about enough is how they plan to secure their guns.

    First of all, they should get a quality safe (a lot of cheap safes look impressive but don't stand up to an experienced robber). Fort Knox is a high end company. Here's one of their brochures with details of their safes.

    Secondly, owners should bolt their safe into their home's structural member. Robbers could take steal the safe and take their time breaking into it.

    Finally, owners should position the safe in a way that makes it difficult for a robber to get a pry bar (or other tools) between the safe and the floor/wall.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  23. #323
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    O'ahu
    Posts
    1,309

    Default Re: Gun Control

    This is an old 2000 web page, but it's good food for thought, regarding securing firearms.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

  24. #324
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Kahalu`u Stream
    Posts
    2,932

    Talking Re: Gun Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Realistically there will be loads of time when the guards will not be shooting people. Might as well make use of that time productively. They can check our papers, make sure people have the right to be where they are. They could administer on the spot drug and alcohol tests, check for warrants, it could all be integrated with a massive records keeping computer system so suspects could be arrested on the spot. We will all be more secure. Life will be better with the guards.
    Sounds ideal, doesn't it?
    Who guards the guards?

    Who regulates those who regulate our rights to keep and bear arms?

    Mayor Cuomo bans guns in New York, but has a personal gun-toting guard squad.

    Rosie says she wants to ban guns - for everyone but HER guards.

    Some are just more equal than others.

    Read "Animal Farm."
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  25. #325
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Smokin' in da windward crib
    Posts
    6,721

    Default Re: Gun Control

    Yesterday's Star-Advertiser poll asked "In the general population, should there be a ban on military style semi-automatic rifles?" and the results were only 39% for YES and 61% for NO.
    Now, almost every day their polls get between 800 and 1,000 votes, but this one yesterday got 3,811, almost four times normal count!!! Think there's anything fishy there? I sure do.
    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

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