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  • #31
    Re: Gun Control

    Facts

    Second Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    However, the Supreme Court [Supreme Court's 2008 decision in District of Columbia v. Heller] has now definitively held that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that weapon for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Moreover, this right applies not just to the federal government, but to states and municipalities as well.
    The Court reasoned that this right is fundamental to the nation's scheme of ordered liberty, given that self-defense was a basic right recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present, and Heller held that individual self-defense was "the central component" of the Second Amendment right. Moreover, a survey of the contemporaneous history also demonstrated clearly that the Fourteenth Amendment's Framers and ratifiers counted the right to keep and bear arms among those fundamental rights necessary to the Nation's system of ordered liberty.
    Two years later:
    The Second Amendment’s guarantee of an individual right to bear arms applies to state and local gun control laws,
    Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Gun Control

      Originally posted by Amati View Post
      Facts Second Amendment: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
      And what does this have to do with gun control? A demonstrably conservative Supreme Court has made a controversial and constructionist interpretation of the Second Amendment. You can give no argument to the fact that higher gun ownership in a country (State, county, city) leads to higher gun violence. Is that the kind of environment you want to create for your family, children, and grandchildren? A climate of gun violence?
      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Gun Control

        Originally posted by matapule View Post
        You can give no argument to the fact that higher gun ownership in a country (State, county, city) leads to higher gun violence.
        Well, I can't, anyway. We know that people become angry with one another, sometimes, and if they have guns available, it makes sense that sometimes they'll use them. But this sort of misses the point. It's proposed that keeping guns in the hands of citizens helps to preserve their liberty. So you have some choice between a society that is safe and non-free or dangerous and free. Choosing freedom puts us at risk. If you don't care that much about freedom, or you think it's not threatened, the safest course is to let the state disarm everyone except its own agents.
        Greg

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: Gun Control

          Originally posted by matapule View Post
          Is that the kind of environment you want to create for your family, children, and grandchildren?
          Originally posted by GregLee View Post
          It's proposed that keeping guns in the hands of citizens helps to preserve their liberty. So you have some choice between a society that is safe and non-free or dangerous and free. Choosing freedom puts us at risk. If you don't care that much about freedom, or you think it's not threatened, the safest course is to let the state disarm everyone except its own agents.
          "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
          Adolph Hitler
          Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Gun Control

            Sorry, I'm going used to a new interface
            Last edited by Kaonohi; December 10, 2012, 07:58 PM. Reason: Clumsiness
            Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
            ~ ~
            Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
            Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
            Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Gun Control

              Originally posted by matapule View Post
              You miss my point. If you don't cross the street, your chances of being hit by a bus are much less than those that do.
              And, if you live in Hawai`i. and don't have guns for protection, your odds of being robbed/burglarized/raped are that much higher than those who do.

              Come on, this is a stupid argument. Guns can protect you or endanger you, as much as the lack of guns can protect or endanger you.

              It is more of a personal choice as to what you prefer, and what you think is best.

              Sure, perhaps the US has a greater level of (particular) handgun violence. It is also the country with the greatest freedom. Nobody has done a cross-referenced study of freedom vs. violence; I recall reading that Brazil has the greatest level of firearm violence, but this is getting quite BORING!

              I have read that Switzerland has the lowest rate of firearm violence, and that citizens there are required to own firearms, for national defense.

              I'm tired of researching statistics and arguing. There are plus and minus arguments for owning or not owning firearms, and with the plethora of different laws and countries, I suppose we can demonstrate whatever we wish.

              If you don't like our constitution you can either move to a country that has laws you like (pick one, will you?), or continue to try to change ours.

              I like our laws, and with some small modifications I can live with them. I will fight against major changes, because I think what we have works. You can fight for the changes or go to places where your idea of laws is in place, like Great Britain, where you cannot even carry a pocketknife.

              Choose what you want and go there. I like American Freedom, and I'll support it. If you don't like American Freedom, you are welcome to go somewhere where the laws are more to your liking.
              Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
              ~ ~
              Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
              Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
              Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: Gun Control

                Originally posted by Amati View Post
                "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
                Adolph Hitler
                And Godwin's Law rears its head...
                Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                And, if you live in Hawai`i. and don't have guns for protection, your odds of being robbed/burglarized/raped are that much higher than those who do.
                Pardon? From where does such an assessment come? How are those "odds" measured and defined? Are guns owned by a majority of Hawai`i residents? If not, are the residents who have been "robbed/burglarized/raped" in the majority?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Gun Control

                  Right on Kaonohi!
                  Well written whether or not others think so...
                  Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Gun Control

                    Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                    Pardon? From where does such an assessment come? How are those "odds" measured and defined? Are guns owned by a majority of Hawai`i residents? If not, are the residents who have been "robbed/burglarized/raped" in the majority?
                    I can always count on you for polite and insightful questions.

                    Perhaps I was doing some speculation and over-generalization. I did read in the news recently that somewhat over 50% of Hawai`i residents have registered firearms, but I don't have an exact quote or source.

                    Within 2 miles of my house there is a crime or two every day, according to HPD. Usually they are non-confrontational (UEMV, theft,) but at times they are daytime break-ins, especially of new residents, or confrontational burglaries.

                    Criminals in a local area know one another and work together (from the horse's mouth), and tell which homes to avoid. Mine is avoided because I sleep lightly and don't hesitate to confront intruders. Some of my close neighbors have had break-in burglaries - one twice, one when they were sleeping and once while they were away. An alarm system, monitored or not, is a good idea, maybe even a better idea than a firearm, FWIW.

                    If you do not have a means of protection, and your alarm is compromised by disconnection of your electrical wires, you have no one to blame but yourself. Crime is common in Hawai`i.

                    Of course you can take Matapule's suggestion, and never cross any roads to avoid being hit by a bus. To avoid crime in Hawai`i, you can live in a secure building and never leave home, I suppose. Most people can't afford that.
                    Last edited by Kaonohi; December 11, 2012, 02:28 PM.
                    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                    ~ ~
                    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Gun Control

                      Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                      I did read in the news recently that somewhat over 50% of Hawai`i residents have registered firearms, but I don't have an exact quote or source.
                      Firearm Registrations in Hawaii, 2011, Department of the Attorney General

                      Although there is no way to track the number of firearms that permanently leave the state, independent estimates made during the late-1990s by the Department of the Attorney General and the City & County of Honolulu Police Department placed the total number of privately owned firearms in Hawaii at roughly one million.
                      Now run along and play, but don’t get into trouble.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: Gun Control

                        Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                        To avoid crime in Hawai`i, you can live in a secure building and never leave home, I suppose.
                        I've been lucky in my choice of neighborhoods, apparently. 22 years living in Kaimuki then 18 years in Waimanalo, and I've never experienced anything like what you describe. Never been burgled or threatened, never had a gun or needed one, never even saw a gun in the hand of anyone. Anyone could easily get into my house -- no one has ever tried. I do have a dog.
                        Greg

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Gun Control

                          Written by: Frank Kacer
                          "We grieve for the victims of violent crime. But to diagnose the wrong problem, deny reality, and reject valid purposes for gun ownership is a recipe for disaster by those who claim an idealistic high moral ground. Our Constitutional right to be armed recognizes the nature of man, the danger of unrestrained government and our need to take responsible precautions for ourselves. To ignore these truths is to put even more people at lethal risk."

                          I agree with this paragragh of his article, though don't believe in everything he wrote. http://communities.washingtontimes.com
                          Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Paranoid Gun Control Enthusiasts

                            Originally posted by matapule View Post
                            What movement for gun control? There isn't any serious movement I know of. However I am personally advocating for one. I have a couple of other personal supporters (family) I know of but other than that, that's the extent of the movement.
                            DUH! As if you have never heard about the Brady Movement? An attempt to limit firearm ownership because of Jim Brady's injuries? They have joined forces with the supporters who propose firearms limits due to the injuries suffered by other government workers who have been targeted for assassination or limitation. (Recent assassination attempt, I forget her name).

                            There is a strong, well-financed anti-gun movement out there. If you believe otherwise, you are simply uninformed and ignorant.

                            This is not to say I approve of assassination attempts, but your puerile attempt to pretend anti-gun movements are non-existant are sophomoric.

                            What are you trying to do? Pretend your anti-gun movements don't exist?
                            Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                            ~ ~
                            Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                            Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                            Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Gun Control

                              Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                              It's proposed that keeping guns in the hands of citizens helps to preserve their liberty. So you have some choice between a society that is safe and non-free or dangerous and free.
                              Really? Of course that is the NRA talking point, but is it true? Either you did not click on my link or you choose not to believe it. Which is it? All of the following countries have lower gun ownership and lower gun violence than the USA: Singapore, Japan, Netherlands, England, Scotland, Denmark, Ireland, Germany, Spain, Australia, Belgium, Austria, Sweden, New Zealand, France, Canada, Switzerland, and Norway. Your argument is that all of these countries have less freedom than the USA? Ludicrous! The only country in the study which has slightly higher gun ownership and lower gun violence than the USA is Finland and the gun violence in the USA is about double what it is in Finland.

                              Choosing freedom puts us at risk. If you don't care that much about freedom, or you think it's not threatened, the safest course is to let the state disarm everyone except its own agents.
                              Again, the NRA talking point. The truth is the opposite. High rates of gun ownership threatens our freedom to live in a peaceful environment,

                              No the safest course is not to let the "state" disarm us but to enact strict gun control legislation and let people choose to live in a country free of paranoia and lies perpetrated by an organization that promotes violence within our own borders.
                              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Gun Control

                                Originally posted by Amati View Post
                                "The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing."
                                Adolph Hitler
                                We are now quoting Hitler as an expert on anything? That is a desperate gambit!
                                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                                Comment

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