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  • Re: Gun Control

    Originally posted by matapule View Post
    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow
    Wow! Sounds exactly like my friend Matapule, in his most recent post in this thread. I guess he forgot more recent Supreme Court Rulings, most conveniently.

    On June 26, 2008, in District of Columbia v. Heller (PDF), the United States Supreme Court issued its first decision since 1939 interpreting the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution. The Court ruled that the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution confers an individual right to possess a firearm for traditionally lawful purposes such as self-defense. It also ruled that two District of Columbia provisions, one that banned handguns and one that required lawful firearms in the home to be disassembled or trigger-locked, violate this right.

    There's your Buffet Matapule; I think you picked the spoiled Tako.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

    Comment


    • Re: Gun Control

      Originally posted by matapule View Post
      I just heard Larry Pratt, the president of the Gun Owners of America, say that he and his organization are opposed to background checks. He said that if someone doesn't pass the check, he will just purchase the gun somewhere else. Pratt was asked if he supports asking for proof of 21 at the liquor store. He said yes. Well then he was asked if someone isn't 21 they will purchase the alcohol somewhere else, so why not oppose asking for proof of 21 at the liquor. He couldn't give an answer.

      These are very appropriate analogies.

      So you are opposed to proof of 21, drivers licenses, proof of insurance, and criminalizing murder?

      You are changing the argument. The NRA argument is that guns are a deterrent. The fact that gun owners are killed (specifically police) means that guns are NOT a deterrent.

      It has been in all the news in Colorado, Texas, and West Virginia.

      You are in agreement with the current, conservative leaning SCOTUS. However, there is a legitimate argument by Constitutional authorities that the 2nd Amendment DOES NOT protect the type of paranoid gun obsession we have in the US today.

      In United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1875), the Supreme Court ruled that "[bearing arms for a lawful purpose] is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.", but also stated that the Second Amendment "has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government", as the amendment had not yet been ruled to limit the power of the states.
      In United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the Supreme Court ruled that the amendment "[protects arms that had a] reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia". This ruling has been widely described as ambiguous, and ignited a debate on whether the amendment protected an individual right, or a collective militia right.

      That is EXACTLY what a City Councilman told me in 1970 about his smoking during Council meetings. He died years ago from lung cancer. I am still enjoying my lifetime in a relatively smoke-free environment. Yes, guns are going someplace and it will happen in my lifespan, - I come from long lived genetics.

      STRICT gun control NOW!

      Where are you getting that I am ...
      opposed to proof of 21, drivers licenses, proof of insurance, and criminalizing murder?
      I said: If they don't want to play by the rules set forth, then they don't get their gun. . .just like if I don't present proof of age, I don't get booze.

      Where the heck are you getting that I think murder shouldn't be criminalized??

      Police get killed . People get killed. Ever think that maybe more police are shot because they are typically the FIRST RESPONDERS? Show me where law enforcement is specifically being targeted by people. Show me where there is a personal vendetta, and cops are being labeled. And OF COURSE POLICE ARE GUN OWNERS, it's PART OF THEIR UNIFORM. It is a tool for them, just as handcuffs, tasters and a radio are.

      You can keep comparing owning guns, a constitutional right, to a smoke free environment all you want, fact is, you are comparing apples to oranges.
      flickr

      An email from God:
      To: People of Earth
      From: God
      Date: 9/04/2007
      Subject: stop

      knock it off, all of you

      seriously, what the hell


      --
      God

      Comment


      • Re: Gun Control

        Originally posted by TATTRAT View Post
        I said: If they don't want to play by the rules set forth, then they don't get their gun. . .just like if I don't present proof of age, I don't get booze.
        Then you are in favor of background checks and a national registry of gun owners?

        Show me where law enforcement is specifically being targeted by people. Show me where there is a personal vendetta, and cops are being labeled.
        Read the news! It has happened in Colorado, Texas, and West Virginia all in the last two weeks. None of the victims were acting in the roll of first responder. Read the news!

        But again, you are changing the argument. Do you believe that guns are a deterrent to gun violence?

        You can keep comparing owning guns, a constitutional right, to a smoke free environment all you want, fact is, you are comparing apples to oranges.
        You are making an accusation that is factually incorrect. Strict gun control is beginning to happen through diligence, perseverance, and commitment.
        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

        Comment


        • Re: Gun Control

          Originally posted by matapule View Post
          Then you are in favor of background checks and a national registry of gun owners?

          Yes, duh. Not everyone should have the ability to own a gun. Not everyone is capable of handling the responsibility that comes with gun ownership.

          Read the news! It has happened in Colorado, Texas, and West Virginia all in the last two weeks. None of the victims were acting in the roll of first responder. Read the news!

          I read the news. I read about shootings, stabbing, people being pushed on train tracks. . . what I am FAILING TO SEE is "POLICE BEING TARGETED IN LATEST WAVE OF CRIMES"


          But again, you are changing the argument. Do you believe that guns are a deterrent to gun violence?

          They certainly don't hurt. If the situation presented itself, where it was mano y mano, I would sure rather bring a gun to a gunfight than a knife. If you want to look at guns being a deterrent, go read up on Switzerland, and it's gun laws and gun related deaths.

          BUT, guess what, there is still crime, just like EVERYWHERE ON THE PLANET


          You are making an accusation that is factually incorrect. Strict gun control is beginning to happen through diligence, perseverance, and commitment.

          Show me the proof
          Replies in red.

          How about this:

          STRICT PEOPLE CONTROLS, NOW! PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE. You take guns away, they will STILL FIND a way. When someone wants to take someone out, it doesn't matter if there is a gun or not, they will still take that person out.

          I am not a gun toting NRA gun nut, but you have to look at things realistically.

          Comparing a smoke free environment and guns is NOT looking at things realistically.

          Better controls and checks to obtain/posses a firearm: Check

          Comprehensive background check in order to own/operate a firearm: check

          No history of violent crime/psychological issues that cause concern for the potential owner or others: Check

          I am all for reform, but prohibition does nothing but drive up the desire to have what is prohibited.

          If some street thug came at me, not knowing I am legally a carrying, points a gun at me, and I counter with a gun too, that levels the playing field. If I am trained, proficient, know about center of mass and have the muscle memory to handle things accordingly, Mr.Thug wouldn't stand a chance.
          flickr

          An email from God:
          To: People of Earth
          From: God
          Date: 9/04/2007
          Subject: stop

          knock it off, all of you

          seriously, what the hell


          --
          God

          Comment


          • Re: Gun Control

            Originally posted by TATTRAT View Post
            Yes, duh. Not everyone should have the ability to own a gun. Not everyone is capable of handling the responsibility that comes with gun ownership.


            I presume your "duh" is directed at the NRA, the Gun Owners of America, and their members and supporters.

            I read the news. I read about shootings, stabbing, people being pushed on train tracks. . . what I am FAILING TO SEE is "POLICE BEING TARGETED IN LATEST WAVE OF CRIMES"


            You
            can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink!

            They certainly don't hurt. If the situation presented itself, where it was mano y mano, I would sure rather bring a gun to a gunfight than a knife. If you want to look at guns being a deterrent, go read up on Switzerland, and it's gun laws and gun related deaths.


            I would rather live in a world where there are far fewer gun fights like there is in most countries of the civilized world compared to the US.

            And now you play the Switzerland strawman card! Here are just some of the facts about Switzerland.

            Gun politics in Switzerland are unique in Europe. Switzerland does not have a standing army, instead opting for a people's militia for its national defense. The vast majority of men between the ages of 20 and 30 are conscripted into the militia and undergo military training, including weapons training. The personal weapons of the militia are kept at home as part of the military obligations; Switzerland thus has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world. In recent times a minority of political opposition has expressed a desire for tighter gun regulations.

            The 2nd Amendment in the Constitution speaks of a "militia" which is obviously a reference to an alternative to a standing army. It is NOT a reference to letting every gun nut yahoo own as many assault weapons as they want. If you want a militia in the US rather than a standing army, then have at it.


            In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received.

            Swiss citizens are not allowed to have ammo in their homes! Yes, they keep guns in their homes but no ammo! They can only get ammo at the military armory while they are on supervised military maneuvers! The percentage of gun possession (they do not "own" their guns) has nothing to do with the low rate of gun violence in Switzerland. Stop assuming the NRA and their puppet supporters are correct when they manipulate the facts.

            In 2005 over 10% of households (in Switzerland) contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the USA.

            If you are correct and firearm possession is a deterrent to crime, then why doesn't the US have a lower rate of gun violence than Switzerland since we have more households with guns in them? STOP LISTENING TO THE NRA AND THEIR HACK GUN NUT SUPPORTERS!

            To carry a loaded firearm in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragbewilligung (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.

            All those guns in Switzerland are for the most part UNLOADED! STOP LISTENING TO THE NRA AND THEIR HACK GUN NUT SUPPORTERS!

            Government statistics for the year 2010 records 40 homicides involving firearms, out of the 53 cases of homicide in 2010.
            The annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population was 0.70, which is one of the lowest in the world.

            In fact, the Swiss are just naturally non-violent people. But when it comes to homicide, almost 80% of them are committed with guns in Switzerland, one of the highest in the world. STOP LISTENING TO THE NRA AND THEIR HACK GUN NUT SUPPORTERS!
            STRICT PEOPLE CONTROLS, NOW!
            If that is what you want, welcome to it, but not in the USA.

            You take guns away, they will STILL FIND a way. When someone wants to take someone out, it doesn't matter if there is a gun or not, they will still take that person out.
            True, but it will be at a much lower rate of kill. Strict gun controls will not eliminate gun violence in the US, but it will dramatically lower the rate of gun violence. World statistics prove that. STOP LISTENING TO THE NRA AND THEIR HACK GUN NUT SUPPORTERS!

            I am not a gun toting NRA gun nut, but you have to look at things realistically.
            You are sure doing a good job of repeating the NRA talking points! STOP LISTENING TO THE NRA AND THEIR HACK GUN NUT SUPPORTERS!

            Comparing a smoke free environment and guns is NOT looking at things realistically.
            Regurgitating NRA talking points is not looking at things realistically. STOP LISTENING TO THE NRA AND THEIR HACK GUN NUT SUPPORTERS!

            Better controls and checks to obtain/posses a firearm: Check

            Comprehensive background check in order to own/operate a firearm: check

            No history of violent crime/psychological issues that cause concern for the potential owner or others: Check
            You have just laid out the framework for the beginning of STRICT gun control NOW.

            I am all for reform, but prohibition does nothing but drive up the desire to have what is prohibited.
            That's what they say about fissionable nuclear material too!

            If some street thug came at me, not knowing I am legally a carrying, points a gun at me, and I counter with a gun too, that levels the playing field. If I am trained, proficient, know about center of mass and have the muscle memory to handle things accordingly, Mr.Thug wouldn't stand a chance.
            As I have said before, this DID happen to mataplue and uaifi on the streets of Los Angeles about 20 years ago. A young thug came up to me with what he said was a gun in his jacket pocket and it appeared to be pointed at me. Although I was unarmed, how would I be expected to pull a a gun out of my belt and shoot what could have been an unarmed 15 y.o. before he shot me? I gave him my wedding ring and about $35 which was all I had on me. The police who came to investigate (well trained in the use of firearms) said I did the right thing. I will listen to them rather than the false bravado chest beating of the foolish Tattrats of the world.

            Tatt, it appears that you are feeling better. Good for you.
            Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

            People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

            Comment


            • Re: Gun Control

              Originally posted by matapule View Post
              If you are correct and firearm possession is a deterrent to crime, then why doesn't the US have a lower rate of gun violence than Switzerland since we have more households with guns in them?
              Others might be more likely to agree with you on this point if it were worded more cautiously. It makes sense that possession of a gun would sometimes be a deterrent to crime, and I assume that sometimes it is. It also makes sense that since guns make it easier to kill people, sometimes they facilitate crime. What we'd like to know is whether crimes facilitated exceed crimes deterred. Comparisons such as the one you mention show that they do.

              So there is no need to keep insisting that guns never deter crime at all, because this is very implausible, and you don't need to say this to make your point.

              By the way, I wish they would break suicides out of these statistics, because personally, I don't consider that wrong, even if it is against the law.
              Greg

              Comment


              • Re: Gun Control

                Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                It makes sense that possession of a gun would sometimes be a deterrent to crime, and I assume that sometimes it is.
                Yes, and sometimes motorcycle riders survive horrific collisions with out using a helmet. That doesn't mean that we should repeal helmet requirements. The overwhelming statistics show that wearing a helmet while riding a motorcycle does prevent catastrophic head injuries. The overwhelming statistics show that gun ownership does not deter gun violence. In fact, the statistics overwhelmingly show that gun ownership encourages gun violence.
                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                Comment


                • REPEAL helmet laws!

                  Originally posted by matapule View Post
                  Yes, and sometimes motorcycle riders survive horrific collisions with out using a helmet. That doesn't mean that we should repeal helmet requirements. The overwhelming statistics show that wearing a helmet while riding a motorcycle does prevent catastrophic head injuries. The overwhelming statistics show that gun ownership does not deter gun violence. In fact, the statistics overwhelmingly show that gun ownership encourages gun violence.
                  Yeah, it's obvious you are "one of those." Make laws to force people to do things they don't want, just because you want it.

                  Helmet laws ONLY protect the people wearing them, so if someone opts for no excessive protection, it's their life, and none of your business.

                  Looks like you are just one of those people who believe you know better than the rest of the world. You are ready to force people into your mold for your own reasons. Your defense comes from your own created logic about what is wrong or right, and you will manipulate the statistics to fit your needs.

                  Now you have proven it. You are a tyrant in the making. 'My way or the highway.' As if you know everything and are willing to impose your false assumptions on the rest of humanity.

                  STRICT FREEDOM NOW (as outlined in the American Constitution!)

                  You don't like our laws? You are free to move somewhere else. Like somewhere where their laws are more to your liking.

                  I have heard you live in Mexico, where the percentage of gun deaths is higher than the US! Why don't you work on changing THEIR laws, instead?
                  Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                  ~ ~
                  Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                  Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                  Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                  Comment


                  • Re: REPEAL helmet laws!

                    Originally posted by Kaonohi View Post
                    Yeah, it's obvious you are "one of those." Make laws to force people to do things they don't want, just because you want it.

                    Helmet laws ONLY protect the people wearing them, so if someone opts for no excessive protection, it's their life, and none of your business.

                    Looks like you are just one of those people who believe you know better than the rest of the world. You are ready to force people into your mold for your own reasons. Your defense comes from your own created logic about what is wrong or right, and you will manipulate the statistics to fit your needs.

                    Now you have proven it. You are a tyrant in the making. 'My way or the highway.' As if you know everything and are willing to impose your false assumptions on the rest of humanity.

                    STRICT FREEDOM NOW (as outlined in the American Constitution!)

                    You don't like our laws? You are free to move somewhere else. Like somewhere where their laws are more to your liking.

                    I have heard you live in Mexico, where the percentage of gun deaths is higher than the US! Why don't you work on changing THEIR laws, instead?
                    DIng Ding Ding! Sorry, Matapule. I typically enjoy your posts and contributions, but, this seems to be one of those decisive issues where common sense, or lack there of, keeps people from ever seeing eye to eye.

                    I'm not even going to justify your long winded replay above. You are sounding more like a gun nut than I. If it is true that you are in Mexico, then this whole thing is REALLY laughable.

                    Thanks for your health concerns for me, that's another story, and sitting at a computer/with a tablet/laptop and writing a post isn't an indicator of wellness or not, but thanks nonetheless.
                    flickr

                    An email from God:
                    To: People of Earth
                    From: God
                    Date: 9/04/2007
                    Subject: stop

                    knock it off, all of you

                    seriously, what the hell


                    --
                    God

                    Comment


                    • Re: REPEAL helmet laws!

                      Originally posted by TATTRAT View Post
                      I'm not even going to justify your long winded replay above.
                      When you don't have a good reply to my elucidation, it is best not to reply at all.

                      You are sounding more like a gun nut than I.
                      When it comes to saving the lives of 7 and 8 year old children, I am an anti-gun nut and not afraid to say so.

                      If it is true that you are in Mexico, then this whole thing is REALLY laughable.
                      Laugh if you must, but no one knows the exact circumstances of my living conditions.......or the circumstances of who I am. When it comes to saving lives threatened by gun violence, I am willing to be a laughing stock.
                      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                      Comment


                      • Re: Gun Control

                        There were 14 people stabbed and wounded at a college in Texas today. Had the perp used a gun instead of an exacto knife, we might be reading about 14 people DEAD tonight. No, gun control will not prevent these kind of incidents from happening, but it will minimize the number of people who are killed by these kind of incidents.

                        STRICT gun control NOW!
                        Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                        People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                        Comment


                        • Re: REPEAL gun restriction laws!

                          Originally posted by matapule View Post
                          I am willing to be a laughing stock.
                          Well, you have succeeded at that, at least. I doubt if you have had any impact on American gun laws, because ours are obviously better than yours.
                          Last edited by Kaonohi; April 9, 2013, 09:47 PM. Reason: Matapule is a fraud.
                          Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                          ~ ~
                          Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                          Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                          Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Gun Control

                            It finally happened!!!!!! And in Texas, of all places!!! A mad man with a KNIFE attacked several people at a community college in the Houston area! Not a gun this time! Finally, after all these years and years and years a mass attack with a KNIFE, just like the gun people always warned of. So to kinda steal their thunder, do you think anyone will be wanting to ban knives now? Knives don't kill people, ... etc. Everybody is expected to survive the knife attack. Unlike those 20 beautiful little kids in Newtown, Ct.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Gun Control

                              Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                              So to kinda steal their thunder, do you think anyone will be wanting to ban knives now?
                              Well, sure. I gather from one of Dick Francis' racing novels, Wild Horses, that British laws against knife ownership are already startlingly draconian (from an American perspective). We're behind the times, in this area.
                              Greg

                              Comment


                              • Re: Gun Control

                                Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                                Well, sure. I gather from one of Dick Francis' racing novels, Wild Horses, that British laws against knife ownership are already startlingly draconian (from an American perspective). We're behind the times, in this area.
                                Quite true. I carry a small (but expensive and well-made) folding knife with me. When I went to get on the London Eye (modern Ferris wheel), a Bobbie (cop) asked me if I had a knife or tool in my pocket. Since it was legal in the USA, I figured it was OK... and told the truth. He examined it, and said, "This knife locks open, and is therefore illegal." I displayed incredulity, the blade was only 3.5 inches, and I had a hard time believing such a thing was restricted, since in the USA it was common to carry such.

                                He gave me a choice. He said I could either go down to the (equivalent of a police station, but he called it something else) and explain to the authorities why it was necessary for me to carry such a knife, or I could deny ownership.

                                I did the smart thing, and he acquired a $75.00 American-made lockback knife.
                                I got to ride the London eye without being arrested....

                                Such is the slippery slope of repressive government. The USA is sliding that way, too.
                                Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                                ~ ~
                                Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                                Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                                Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

                                Comment

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