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Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

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  • #16
    Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

    Originally posted by salmoned View Post
    Absolutely wrong! Data tell the whole story (but only if the data is complete); statistics are massaged data to present a part of the story you want told.

    Data are facts, statistics are tales with a factual basis.

    Conclusions based on statistics are twice removed from facts in the hierarchy of Reality.

    sooooooooo........where is your data? Statistics ARE based on representative data. Take a statistics class sometime and then come back and discuss with some knowledge.
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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    • #17
      Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

      To get back on topic..........here is a letter from Australia's Prime Minister, John Howard with the results of strict gun control in Australia since enactment in 1996.
      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

        Originally posted by salmoned View Post
        Data are facts, statistics are tales with a factual basis.
        No. Statistics are factual observations or the values of mathematical functions of them, such as sum, mean value, variance, and mathematics is not a mere tale.
        Greg

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        • #19
          Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

          Greg, I'm sorry but mathematics is not factual, it's only and entirely conceptual.
          May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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          • #20
            Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

            Originally posted by salmoned View Post
            Greg, I'm sorry but mathematics is not factual, it's only and entirely conceptual.
            I'm sure I didn't say that mathematics is factual.

            A mathematical derivation preserves factuality; it doesn't produce a mere interpretation of the facts. It's a fact that I'm 5'8" and it's a fact that my wife is 5'6". It's mathematically true that the mean of those two heights is 5'7", so it's a fact that my wife and my mean height is 5'7". That's not just a tale -- that's just as much a fact as the individual heights are. See? Start with facts, apply a mathematical function, and you still have a fact.

            There is plenty of theory in statistics, and plenty of opportunity to mislead, if that's what you're getting at. But statistics are facts, contrary to what you wrote.
            Greg

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            • #21
              Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

              Originally posted by GregLee View Post
              It's a fact that I'm 5'8" and it's a fact that my wife is 5'6". It's mathematically true that the mean of those two heights is 5'7", so it's a fact that my wife and my mean height is 5'7".
              I agree. Now if you lived in Australia, the gun nuts on this forum would be saying that since the mean height of you and your wife is 5'-7", then it is a fact that ALL people in Australia are 5'-7" tall. That would be factually incorrect because the sample would not be large enough to jump to that conclusion.

              The facts are that gun violence in Australia has been dramatically reduced since 1996 when STRICT gun controls were enacted there.
              Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

              People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

                Originally posted by matapule View Post
                ... a fact that ALL people in Australia are 5'-7" tall. That would be factually incorrect because the sample would not be large enough to jump to that conclusion.
                Not wishing to seem picky, but it wouldn't be factually incorrect. The average height of all people in Australia is a matter of fact, but your conclusion about the sample size required to reach a plausible estimate of the average height is a matter of theory, not fact.
                Greg

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                • #23
                  Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

                  Originally posted by GregLee View Post
                  Not wishing to seem picky, but it wouldn't be factually incorrect.
                  The presumption would be factually incorrect. You are being picky and knitting those picks.

                  The average height of all people in Australia is a matter of fact, but your conclusion about the sample size required to reach a plausible estimate of the average height is a matter of theory, not fact.
                  Well then let's survey everyone! You are denying accepted scientific principle and it is not a theory. Scientific analysis can even proscribe a margin of error to these computations and calculations. But now you are wanting to argue semantics.

                  The NRA has blocked all attempts to study and analyze gun violence in the US. All they offer is unsubstantiated talking points.

                  To get back on topic, gun violence in Australia has been dramatically reduced since the introduction of strict gun control in 1996. That is a verifiable fact!
                  Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                  People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

                    Originally posted by matapule View Post
                    You are denying accepted scientific principle and it is not a theory. Scientific analysis can even proscribe a margin of error to these computations and calculations.
                    No, I'm not denying any accepted scientific principle, and it is a theory. You can't proceed to estimate a required sample size or a margin of error without making assumptions about the probability distribution of the population. This takes you away from just reporting facts and into interpreting facts (what salmoned was complaining about). I have nothing against theorizing, myself -- that's how science proceeds. But I think it is better not to confuse facts and interpretations.
                    Greg

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                    • #25
                      Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

                      Bottom line....there is no denying that where guns have been banned or strictly controlled the incidence of gun violence has been dramatically reduced. That is not a theory, those are the facts.
                      Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                      People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Let's ban guns successfully, as the Australians have!

                        All this talk about statistics and facts makes me think of this:

                        "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                        "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                        "
                        Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

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                        • #27
                          Let's ban guns, and open ourself to more massacres.

                          Originally posted by matapule View Post
                          Bottom line....there is no denying that where guns have been banned or strictly controlled the incidence of gun violence has been dramatically reduced. That is not a theory, those are the facts.
                          No, that's not true. You are misrepresenting the facts, as I have pointed out earlier.

                          The most horrendous massacres happened in countries who have the strictest gun laws.

                          Because.... the criminals know they can most likely get away with it, because there is no opposition.
                          Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
                          ~ ~
                          Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
                          Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
                          Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

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