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  1. #1

    Default Snowden/NSA

    http://news.yahoo.com/obama-world-sn...032606031.html
    "We have proper avenues for whistleblowers to make their case, he should just turn himself in and take the consequences if he's really a concerned patriot"... blah blah. Right, all our Dems and cons want this guy dead, yet they say he shouldn't have gone to China, Russia, etc. to stay alive and get the word out. It's about salvaging freedom of the press and our media goober heads are all against him.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    These events are hardly surprising.

    Bamford wrote a good book on the topic.

    Within treaty law the rest areas are a sort of neutral zone.

    The capsule hotels there are actually pretty comfortable.


    After days of shuttling about on private jets, such a refuge seems be nice.

    Havana has a nice climate and after all,

    The blowback might be too much .





  3. #3

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Funny, I am not coming down on Snowden's side on this. We talked about it before: it is a cruel world, there are bad people with evil intents, as 9 11 and other events show. As important as the right to privacy is, all rights have their limits. When the gvt says monitoring has prevented additional terrorist attacks that claim can't be dismissed out of hand. Like everything else there needs to be balance. Snowden as an employee of a contractor seems to have had minimal security screening, I find it hard to believe a dedicated agent would have been so negligent of the true need for national security. So the fault is with the gvt contracting out such sensitive work and failing to supervise the contractors. I can't help but wonder if the cost of such necessary and realistic supervision has been a victim of our dysfunctional congress's insistence on tax cuts for billionaires. Its so sad but you actually do need to spend money, thats what it exists for, and supervising such contractors seems like just such a necessary expenditure. In Snowden the marketplace seems to have delivered unsatisfactory quality.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Ou sont les Snowdens d'antan?
    Greg

  5. #5

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    When the gvt says monitoring has prevented additional terrorist attacks that claim can't be dismissed out of hand.

    Snowden as an employee of a contractor seems to have had minimal security screening, I find it hard to believe a dedicated agent would have been so negligent of the true need for national security.

    So the fault is with the gvt contracting out such sensitive work and failing to supervise the contractors.

    In Snowden the marketplace seems to have delivered unsatisfactory quality.
    It can't be trusted either.
    Dick Cheney has steadfastly lied that torture saved America when in fact his rouge CIA agents failed to get anything like the FBI got using humane tactics. Virtually everybody in our Gmt. and media is rabid over getting this guy. Sickening.

    He hasn't done anything except clue the citizens of the US into what the terrorists have known for years. That's why they're mad as hell and want his head. No National security wasn harmed in the release of this info.

    How can they supervise the thousands who have the same types of clearance?

    I'd say we need millions more like him.
    As he's said, he's just a regular guy who saw things that were wrong and needed to be known, and he had the ability to do it even at high costs to him.


    I salute his ultimate patriotism and guts.
    Last edited by Ron Whitfield; June 24th, 2013 at 02:08 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Dick Cheney has steadfastly lied that torture saved America when in fact his rouge CIA agents failed to get anything like the FBI got using humane tactics.
    But if torture had saved America from some attack, that would have been A-OK with you, right? The only problem with torture is that it doesn't work very well to extract correct information.
    He [Snowden] hasn't done anything except clue the citizens of the US into what the terrorists have known for years.
    So what counts is not whether we know the US government is violating the rights of its citizens, but whether the terrorists know. If the terrorists didn't already know about it, it would be okay to lock up Snowden for telling us and them both about it.
    How can they supervise the thousands who have the same types of clearance?
    But if with more effective supervision, our government could effectively keep it a secret that it violates our rights, then it would be okay to violate them.

    Does anything strike you as peculiar about these arguments you're making?
    Greg

  7. #7

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Excellent perspectives from all posters.

    If the prism device had been in place in the 1700s

    the American Revolution would have been nipped in the bud.

    They would have grabbed Paul Revere.

    ------
    Chris
    Last edited by lensperson; June 24th, 2013 at 09:21 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by GregLee View Post
    But if torture had saved America from some attack, that would have been A-OK with you, right? The only problem with torture is that it doesn't work very well to extract correct information.

    So what counts is not whether we know the US government is violating the rights of its citizens, but whether the terrorists know. If the terrorists didn't already know about it, it would be okay to lock up Snowden for telling us and them both about it. But if with more effective supervision, our government could effectively keep it a secret that it violates our rights, then it would be okay to violate them.
    You might want to re-read my post, Greg, I'm not promoting torture. And while I might be glad US lives were saved in most any way I'm not about to sanction torture or civil rights violations.

    But... the bad guys HAVE known for years, we are just too busy with American Idol to bother knowing our best interests.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    I guess it all depends on whether you trust your own government.

    Do you?

    I haven't seen much trustworthy coming out of our government in many years.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    The most informed as to this sort of situation are usually service staff.

    The capsule hotel has cooks, bellboys and janitors.

    Those folks would no doubt know a lot.

    After all, thats their job.


  11. #11

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Some commentator pointed out that people in the past who have engaged in civil disobedience accepted jail as consequence of their acts. Ellsberg, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and others all disobeyed authority but accepted the consequences. Snowden does not.

    On the plus side for him, it is good that US allies have now been informed that the US was spying on them, too. As a general rule, doing what the USSR did has never been a good idea.

  12. #12

    Smile Re: Snowden/NSA

    It is an unfortunate world that closes its boundaries to sleuths.

    Truth is a gas that will always leak out eventually.

    Hopefully the presence of numerous correspondents in the wild

    will encourage cheaper room service.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Edward Snowden Poll Finds More Americans Now Think He Did The Wrong Thing

    “If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

    ― Malcolm X

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalalau View Post
    Some commentator pointed out that people in the past who have engaged in civil disobedience accepted jail as consequence of their acts. Ellsberg, Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and others all disobeyed authority but accepted the consequences. Snowden does not.

    On the plus side for him, it is good that US allies have now been informed that the US was spying on them, too. As a general rule, doing what the USSR did has never been a good idea.
    I'd put Mandela on that list, too.

    From what I understand, Snowden faces life in prison. After the torture and other inhumane treatment of Bradley Manning, I think there's a legitimate reason to be adverse to facing the music. He already gave up a great life to disclose all this, and I'm surprised that relatively few Americans even care that the freedoms our forefathers fought and died for are being compromised. And they aren't just being compromised by government agents, they're being compromised by private corporate contractors. In this case, they entrusted a great deal of privilege to a high school dropout.

    Facing the apathy of Americans from a Moscow airport, possibly for the rest of his life, should be more than sufficient punishment (in the context of those who believe Snowden should have faced criminal charges in the USA). If they want to prosecute the man, then I think Director of National Intelligence James Clapper should be prosecuted for perjury, too. If we want to prosecute people who broke "the law", or even the color of law, then let's prosecute everyone who did so, not just the ones who didn't agree with the agenda of secret surveillance (with the aid of private corporate corporations).

    Best case scenario: Snowden is either exonerated, or given a light sentence, along with James Clapper; and our intelligence gathering apparatus, etc. is severely reformed.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Vanguard, it is good to hear from you. Where have you been?
    Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

    People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Best case scenario: Snowden is either exonerated, or given a light sentence, along with James Clapper; and our intelligence gathering apparatus, etc. is severely reformed.
    Since when is telling the truth a punishable offense? Oh, right, when it flows against the status quo.
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
    ~ ~
    Kaʻonohiʻulaʻokahōkūmiomioʻehiku
    Spreading the virus of ALOHA.
    Oh Chu. If only you could have seen what I've seen, with your eyes.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Snowden/NSA

    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard View Post
    Best case scenario: Snowden is either exonerated, or given a light sentence, along with James Clapper; and our intelligence gathering apparatus, etc. is severely reformed.
    Dang, nice post, v.
    Funny how Clapper's lie isn't getting more focus, it was an absurd moment. But it's just another sad chapter in our media and country's history.
    Amazing, how we've watched as our Union went from one of promise to having a fork in it.

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