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Thread: Star-Bulletin on the Web

  1. #126

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by buzz1941 View Post
    There are no pop-up ads on the printed version. There's always that alternative.
    I wish a pop up ad would come down and cover up the BREAKING NEWS story that's been up now for 24 hours that the WAHINE BB team has won a game....this is to me more annoying that no one is paying attention....

  2. #127

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    Apparently, SB isnít sophisticated enough to understand (or too cheap to afford) the value of this type of marketing.
    Oh, snap!

    Just in case you don't know, the New York Times is rather a larger operation. And us hometown hicks ain't got no sophistication.
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  3. #128
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Just for the record, no one here emailed or PM me about some of the earlier posts in the revival of this thread.

    There is another thread in the Hawaii Internet section that addressed the same issues regarding the pop ups.

    Several months later the issue pops up again. Clearly some readers of the site are not happy.

    Last year I did email some of the people at S-B regarding my opinions of the intrusive pop-ups. While I disagreed with their answers, at least they wrote back.

    Since the pop ups are still an issue, several things I have done.

    1. I don't go to the main site page and links as often as I used to.
    2. I use the mobile site which so far is text only with some pictures but no pop ups. In fact the mobile site has no ads.
    3. When I link to certain S-B stories, I now link to the mobile site to spare readers from the wrath of the pop-ups.
    4. Since S-B is still forcing readers to pop-up ads, I have voted with my feet and read news and blogs from other online sources.
    5. Lastly there are several places where you can get the paper edition of S-B of the low price of "free" (one of them is Burger King).

    We'll see what ramps up when the paper format changes to the smaller tabloid.

  4. #129
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by 808golfer View Post
    Yeah the SB pop ups CAN BE annoying to SOME people but like most things in life....not to ALL. When the SB first launched the POPS everyone was saying "hey, where's the close button"? Shortly thereafter, a close button appears, so seems to me they are trying to serve both masters. I think everyone is losing sight of just how lucky the SB is to even still be alive and they should support them anyway they can to make money and keep the paper alive. If that means taking a couple extra seconds to hit a close button then do it for gods sake. Let's face it, The Hono Tizer just accepted large wage reductions across the board.....CUZ THEY ARE LOSING MONEY....begs the question...if the big bad full of print ads and on line business is so good for them but they still can't make it.....then how do ya think the SB is doing???? Midweek is good but it can't be that good......All I'm saying people is cut them a little slack...I dont see anyone being critical of the Tizer so they must be the role model.....except they are losing money...oh...right... so maybe not so much. Also, ya really gotta love it when someone says "why can't they be like the NEW YORK TIMES"....probably the same reason L and L Drive Inn is never gonna be Alan Wongs... Finally, those that would like to respond, please do. You may not like or agree with what I have to say but no need to tell me to go F myself like the SB's old webmaster did earlier. The way I see it....it started a meaningful discussion for the first time on this site in a long time. So, I guess that's a good thing. I realize I'm outside the circle of the 6 or 7 of you who regularly respond but another viewpoint might be interesting from time to time. Oh, almost forgot. A couple of the LOCAL TV websites have pop ups that briefly block the news content... AND they ALL have national and international news stories (more then local if you count only stories from that day)....ok, I'm done. Fire away....
    It's kind of a misnomer that the Advertiser is losing money when in fact its parent company, Gannett is not actually losing money, but has lower profits and its stock has lost about 90% of its value. I know, I own a bunch which is now almost worthless.

    Up until a year ago the Advertiser was one of Gannett's most profitable papers. It even won a award from the company for its profitability. You have to remember the Advertiser has a $90 million printing facility on its books, which can be deducted as capital expense for the next 20 years. Not to mention depreciation. Its all a matter of accounting!

    No one is complaining about the Advertiser's website because it "doesn't" have pop ups. That's kind of the whole point.

    If they don't want to listen to their customers then why should I support them? If they fail, its because they aren't meeting the needs of the people who keep them in business. I like living in a two paper town, but I'm not going to support a paper I don't want to read or a website I don't find useful.

  5. #130

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by Media Guy View Post
    It's kind of a misnomer that the Advertiser is losing money when in fact its parent company, Gannett is not actually losing money, but has lower profits and its stock has lost about 90% of its value. I know, I own a bunch which is now almost worthless.

    Up until a year ago the Advertiser was one of Gannett's most profitable papers. It even won a award from the company for its profitability. You have to remember the Advertiser has a $90 million printing facility on its books, which can be deducted as capital expense for the next 20 years. Not to mention depreciation. Its all a matter of accounting!

    No one is complaining about the Advertiser's website because it "doesn't" have pop ups. That's kind of the whole point.

    If they don't want to listen to their customers then why should I support them? If they fail, its because they aren't meeting the needs of the people who keep them in business. I like living in a two paper town, but I'm not going to support a paper I don't want to read or a website I don't find useful.
    Sorry, but it's hard for me to believe that the SB isn't listening to their customers. Someone earlier said: which customer? the ones not paying a dime or the ones paying thousands of dollars and apparently getting results cuz they are still there and growing....it's real simple: if it wasn't working for the advertiser they wouldn't pay. And if you really think SIX unions representing over 500 employees voted to take a 10% pay cut cuz the company isnt making money because of the depreciation expense adjustment then you are probably never gonna get it. by the way, you can only depreciate the eqiupment....not the land and building. so your 80 mil is way off...BUT whatever. When the day comes that ANY newspaper shuts down because they couldn't make a go of the internet site it will likely be when most of us are gone....as i said earlier, newspapers are already seeing sales declines in internet revenues.....and in the sum of things you're talking about pennies VS dollars.... POPS or no POPS. I have one last question: If pop up ads are so the death rattle for newspapers then why on a site like this ( Hawaii Threads) with access to so many do you only hear from the same 6 or 7 people?? I'm guessing if the SB received thousands of complaints it might get their attention.....again...I doubt that very much.

  6. #131
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    I stated "not to mention depreciation."
    It's called cost segregation. Using this method, buyers view a real estate acquisition as consisting not only of land and buildings but also tangible personal property and land improvements. The tax savings come from accelerated depreciation deductions and easier property write-offs. A taxpayer can use cost segregation when constructing a building, buying an existing one, or, in certain circumstances, years after disposing of one so long as the year of disposition still is open under the statute of limitations.
    The recovery period can range from 5 -39 years, and now section 179 of the tax code is even less strigent with the recently passed stimulus package.
    There are many more charges the company can take as well.

    Believe me I get it! I've been doing this for a long time. I'm not implying that the Unions or the workers got duped or anything, its all above board. That's how business is done and why good accounting firms get $450 a hour.

    If you own a business, land and buildings you'd get it too, but let's not get tied up in tax code minutiae.

    I am one of the customers that spends many thousands of dollars with both papers, and I'm simply stating my displeasure with the Star Bulletin. I, and even people who don't advertise in the paper have that right.

    The Star Bulletin isn't ready to take off the pop ups because even it they only represents 3 to 8% of its revenue, they still need every penny to continue to survive. I get that too, but I still have a right to complain.

  7. #132
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Oh yeah, just to belabor my point, I'd bet when the unions went over the Advertiser's books there were huge impairment charges for "goodwill."

    Goodwill is very hard to define because they are intangible assets and have "intrinsic value, such as a strong brand name, good customer relations, good employee relations and any patents or proprietary technology.

    It is easy to say those lost whatever value a company wants to assign (millions).
    Gannett would spread this charge over all of its various operating units.

  8. #133
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by mel View Post
    Just for the record, no one here emailed or PM me about some of the earlier posts in the revival of this thread.
    Well, just for the record, some of us users thought that moderators were reading every post. While that's not the practice on every discussion board, it's certainly that way on the vast majority.

    The vBulletin "report post" link may seem like just one more unecessary bell & whistle, but if moderators aren't going to be on the spot within a few hours then maybe the link would make it easier to notify the management. But I guess we could also try retraining every poster... one at a time.

    Quote Originally Posted by mel View Post
    There is another thread in the Hawaii Internet section that addressed the same issues regarding the pop ups.
    Several months later the issue pops up again. Clearly some readers of the site are not happy.
    Since the pop ups are still an issue, several things I have done.
    1. I don't go to the main site page and links as often as I used to.
    2. I use the mobile site which so far is text only with some pictures but no pop ups. In fact the mobile site has no ads.
    3. When I link to certain S-B stories, I now link to the mobile site to spare readers from the wrath of the pop-ups.
    4. Since S-B is still forcing readers to pop-up ads, I have voted with my feet and read news and blogs from other online sources.
    5. Lastly there are several places where you can get the paper edition of S-B of the low price of "free" (one of them is Burger King).
    I understand that popups are annoying-- no issue there.

    But what I don't understand is how they're getting through popup blockers, HOSTS files, or whatever filters that IE6 provides. My browser is probably among the least sophisticated (certainly the least stable) hunks of software on a computer, but I've never seen a S-B popup ad. I never even see an ad on sites that insist on showing you something before you're allowed to proceed to their main web page.

    If S-B's not going to change their annoying marketing tactics, then what setting could other readers apply to these annoyances?
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  9. #134

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    Well, just for the record, some of us users thought that moderators were reading every post. While that's not the practice on every discussion board, it's certainly that way on the vast majority.

    The vBulletin "report post" link may seem like just one more unecessary bell & whistle, but if moderators aren't going to be on the spot within a few hours then maybe the link would make it easier to notify the management. But I guess we could also try retraining every poster... one at a time.
    I used "Contact us" to send a note to Admin which got a very quick response in the thread. But apparently he didn't pass the message.

    I don't see anything where I'm supposed to know that I have to PM a particular moderator depending on the section.

    As far as I'm concerned, the process is broken. The board I moderate has the icon, and it triggers a email to the moderators. It may only do it to those who moderate that section.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    But what I don't understand is how they're getting through popup blockers, HOSTS files, or whatever filters that IE6 provides. My browser is probably among the least sophisticated (certainly the least stable) hunks of software on a computer, but I've never seen a S-B popup ad. I never even see an ad on sites that insist on showing you something before you're allowed to proceed to their main web page.
    It's Flash. If you don't have Flash installed or enabled, then it can't do it's annoying thing. (And why are you still on IE6? Running Win2000?)


    Ran across an interesting piece on Slate - Not All Information Wants To Be Free

  10. #135

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by 808golfer View Post
    When the day comes that ANY newspaper shuts down because they couldn't make a go of the internet site it will likely be when most of us are gone....
    That day is coming faster than you think. The Christian Science Monitor no longer has a print edition. Other newspapers might follow down that path, too.

    The newspaper industry has to change its along with the way its readers are changing.

  11. #136

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    BTW, the pop-ups and other Web design things aren't Star-Bulletin decisions. They're handed down from corporate. Essentially, that adds another layer to response time, but they are listening to your complaints, and have tweaked things.

    Some people don't like them -- freeloaders! -- but most people simply accept them as the cost of obtaining content.

    The day they cost us more than they bring in, they'll vanish.
    Burl Burlingame
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  12. #137
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by buzz1941 View Post
    [...]
    Some people don't like them -- freeloaders! -- but most people simply accept them as the cost of obtaining content.[...]
    Exactly!

    This issue reminds me of the time, several years ago, when I was whining about spam to the owner of a computer business in my building. He listened then calmly offered his simple 'fix'..."Just hit the delete key." Of course, I'd been doing that but it was his "ain't no beeg ting" demeanor that resonated with me. Now I just click on the 'close ad' button.

  13. #138

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by buzz1941 View Post
    BTW, the pop-ups and other Web design things aren't Star-Bulletin decisions. They're handed down from corporate.
    Ah, another sore spot. Out of curiosity, from a reader's point of view, what benefit is there to "corporate"? Are they just tyrants who demand "more profits", or do they actually give something to Hawaii's readers in return?

    I suspect much of journalism's ruination is Wall Street. A look at the transcript of Long Story Short with Bob Sevey that airs tonight seems to support that.

    I think some outlets are experimenting with a non-profit model. It will be interesting to see how that progresses.



    Quote Originally Posted by buzz1941 View Post
    The day they cost us more than they bring in, they'll vanish.
    The only way I can see them "costing" more than expected is in lost readers. Unfortunately, the day the numbers revel it - it's too late. The damage is done.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nords View Post
    If S-B's not going to change their annoying marketing tactics, then what setting could other readers apply to these annoyances?
    In checking out your observation, I've found that placing the SB in my browser's "restricted sites" strips off not just the annoying ad, but all the ads in the right column as well as all the AP stuff. Seems to do a good job of decluttering the site. Loads faster too.

  14. #139
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    come march 1st, any complaints regarding the SB website will be more likely than they are now not to be acted upon as the staff of four webmasters will be cut down to two.
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    In checking out your observation, I've found that placing the SB in my browser's "restricted sites" strips off not just the annoying ad, but all the ads in the right column as well as all the AP stuff. Seems to do a good job of decluttering the site. Loads faster too.
    Ok, now I'm a happy camper!
    Pop ups gone, switched to the mobile version for my Blackberry, complaints done for now.
    That was simple, why didn't someone just suggest that three pages ago?

  16. #141

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    If I were an advertising client and discovered that readers were so annoyed that they were installing utilities to block all ads, I'd be very concerned. Maybe find some other venue to buy my advertising.

    If the pop-ups are annoying enough to make readers find ways to block all ad content, that will certainly affect a website's bottom line. The website loses visitors. And worse yet, it loses ad clients.

  17. #142

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by 808golfer View Post
    If pop up ads are so the death rattle for newspapers then why on a site like this ( Hawaii Threads) with access to so many do you only hear from the same 6 or 7 people??
    It's good that there are that 6 or 7 people who post serious stuff. My posts are silly. So, the serious posters have been informative and keeps a balance for the board.

  18. #143
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    For all the time people take to complain about pop-ups, they could just as easily have looked up ways to get around said ads. I've been reading the SB mobile edition on my WinMo phone since day one. And there's been a "Mobile Edition" link on the upper right-hand corner of starbulletin.com proper since the latest format was rolled out. In fact, the SB is the only Honolulu daily that gives you the option of a fast, no advertisement version of the full site that gives you access to all the day's stories. Check out the Honolulu Advertiser's mobile edition if you don't believe me.

    And if you're like me and prefer to use Firefox to do most of your surfing but you still insist on viewing the full version of the sb site, you can always request to have pop ups not sent to your IP address(es) in the first place. Just go to whatismyip.com, copy and paste your address in an e-mail to SB's director of online advertising requesting to add your address to the pop up blacklist.
    "If it's brown, it's cooked. If it's black, it's f***ed" - G. Ramsey

  19. #144

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    If I were an advertising client and discovered that readers were so annoyed that they were installing utilities to block all ads, I'd be very concerned. Maybe find some other venue to buy my advertising.

    If the pop-ups are annoying enough to make readers find ways to block all ad content, that will certainly affect a website's bottom line. The website loses visitors. And worse yet, it loses ad clients.
    Uhhhh.....TiVo....DVR's....
    Ad clients will go away whe they stop getting results for the money they pay to advertise. They are obviously getting the desired results or they wouldn't still be there. It's just that simple.

  20. #145
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by 808golfer View Post
    Uhhhh.....TiVo....DVR's....
    Ad clients will go away whe they stop getting results for the money they pay to advertise. They are obviously getting the desired results or they wouldn't still be there. It's just that simple.
    Not true. We and many other businesses advertise in both papers for two basic reasons: To keep the pricing competitive, so the Advertiser gives us deals. Also because the Bulletin offers combo rates with Midweek, which may not be the bastion of journalsim, but it has incredible reach, delivered to almost every household on Oahu.

    The Advertiser ó Circulation: 141,934 Morning 155,932 Sunday
    Star Bulletin ó Circulation: 64,000 Monday -Sunday

  21. #146

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by Media Guy View Post
    That was simple, why didn't someone just suggest that three pages ago?
    I guess I wasn't motivated enough. I only look at SB's site when someone links to it. That's not my normal mode for local news.


    Quote Originally Posted by 808golfer View Post
    If pop up ads are so the death rattle for newspapers then why on a site like this ( Hawaii Threads) with access to so many do you only hear from the same 6 or 7 people??
    Question: How many people regularly post to HT? How many of them read the SB site? And how many others are going to bother to post "me too" when it's already clear there are several who are unhappy. In other words, how many people would you expect to see on HT if it is/was a major issue?


    Quote Originally Posted by MixedPlateBroker View Post
    you can always request to have pop ups not sent to your IP address(es) in the first place. ... e-mail to SB's director of online advertising[/EMAIL] requesting to add your address to the pop up blacklist.
    Well, that works until the ISP changes your IP address.


    Quote Originally Posted by 808golfer View Post
    Uhhhh.....TiVo....DVR's....
    Ad clients will go away whe they stop getting results for the money they pay to advertise. They are obviously getting the desired results or they wouldn't still be there. It's just that simple.
    Depending on how people skip over them, they may still see the ad. I've been known to rewind to see an engaging new ad.

    I also read some of the ads in the paper. Anything that I might be interested in. The problem is how to create the same opportunity in a on-line format.

  22. #147

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by Walkoff Balk View Post
    It's good that there are that 6 or 7 people who post serious stuff. My posts are silly. So, the serious posters have been informative and keeps a balance for the board.
    And you are wiser than I have given you credit for being.

  23. #148
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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    The two separate threads on the Star-Bulletin website have been merged into one after I received a request to do so by one of our users. Totally makes sense to me. It's done.
    Last edited by mel; February 23rd, 2009 at 04:29 PM. Reason: fix typo

  24. #149

    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Often advertising isn't just to get immediate sales.

    At other times it's to help keep the name familiar. For example, Hawaiian Electric doesn't advertise to increase sales. After all, where's the competition? But they'll do it for PR purposes. That kind of effect isn't easily measured.

    And, as Gecko Geek mentioned, a clever ad is likely to draw attention and even warrant replays. Bud Light is a very good example. But if the ads are completely blocked from view, then that could be a problem for the advertising client. So the media outlet has an interest in making certain its clients gets the exposure they deserve.

    If pop-up ads become so annoying that it drives viewers to employ blockers, or if it just drives them away entirely, it defeats the purpose of the ads.

    And as for "free" readership or viewership being a type of parasitic activity, that's the way it is for a lot of media. TV. Radio. The internet in general. Newspapers could go the route of subscribership but that business model will teeter on a risky "you first" game. Few publications would be bold enough to lose its readership to a competitior that may already be providing similar content for free.

    What would readers be willing to pay? How compelling does the content have to be?

    IPTV Hawaii is trying to market a service where they can bring Hawaii-originated television programming to the Mainland and elsewhere via the internet. But they're facing some serious drawbacks: The material they're providing is dated and limited. The quality is on par with what you'd expect from a highly compressed video file. Viewers have to pay for a box, then subscribe to the service. How many people are willing to pay $125 for a box, then another $22 a month to watch OC16 reruns? The daily news is available, but then the news is also available for free via the stations' websites. The argument is that these shows can be watched on a regular TV, but is that worth the initial investment and the monthly fee?

    With the growth of YouTube, Apple TV and other internet-based delivery systems for a broader variety of high-quality programming, that subscription model is unlikely to take root very quickly -- if at all.

    It's the same for newspapers. With TV stations providing text-based news stories on the web, the fast turnaround of breaking news, and with content that includes video and sound, the rules of the game are changing fast. The newspaper industry has to stop thinking of itself as a print-based medium and integrate a lot more 21st Century technology into its news gathering and delivery systems.

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    Default Re: Star-Bulletin on the Web

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckoGeek View Post
    Well, that works until the ISP changes your IP address.
    Which is maybe once a year as long go online at least once every three days (with RR at least). And again, it takes the same amount of time to request a new IP address blacklisting as it does to post a complaint to an online forum.
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