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Thread: HawaiiThreads to Hawaii Culture

  1. #1
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by Glen Miyashiro
    Kimo, yes you have. That's the same commercial we've been laughing over...

    yea. joke.
    (as in; "please use da search, newbies!")

  2. #2

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    yea. joke.
    (as in; "please use da search, newbies!")
    ... and what would have that search have been? "The Breasts They Grow on Trees" oh yeah, that thread is about Burger King, right.

    I hope this isn't one of those forums that dis's people for not reading every post in every sub-catagory on the entire forum Sheesh lighten up dude.
    That's the kind of comment that turns people into lurkers and afraid to post..."Ali'i"... "Keiki" gimmiabreak!

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    ... and what would have that search have been? "The Breasts They Grow on Trees" oh yeah, that thread is about Burger King, right.

    I hope this isn't one of those forums that dis's people for not reading every post in every sub-catagory on the entire forum Sheesh lighten up dude.
    That's the kind of comment that turns people into lurkers and afraid to post..."Ali'i"... "Keiki" gimmiabreak!

    nope not a dis. just a reminder, just as we get on many other boards when we don't search. no biggie. I was elucidating it to Glen. was not meant as a direct or indirect insult. after all, a "please" means something in some parts.
    and you have permission to lighten up also...


    eh, whazz wrong with "Ali'i"... "Keiki" ?

    I hope this isn't one of those forums that dis's people for not reading every post in every sub-catagory on the entire forum
    I hope not either. And as far as I can see, it isn't.
    (and I can see pretty far.)
    Last edited by kimo55; April 11th, 2005 at 12:00 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    eh, whazz wrong with "Ali'i"... "Keiki" ?

    I hope not either. And as far as I can see, it isn't.
    (and I can see pretty far.)
    ...I'm as light as a coffee blossom on the trades...
    I am referring to the little term below your user id in posts.
    It's a class distinction. Ali'i vs Kanaka is like classifying people: laborer vs. Lord/Lady. These terms are reminiscent of ancient Hawaiian culture where it was OK to own a slave...or at least treat someone like a slave. Keiki(child) is merely condescending.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    These terms are reminiscent of ancient Hawaiian culture where it was OK to own a slave...or at least treat someone like a slave. Keiki(child) is merely condescending.

    could be, could be....
    ainokea.
    don't notice it anymore.
    take it up with admin.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    I am referring to the little term below your user id in posts.
    It's a class distinction. Ali'i vs Kanaka is like classifying people: laborer vs. Lord/Lady. These terms are reminiscent of ancient Hawaiian culture where it was OK to own a slave...or at least treat someone like a slave. Keiki(child) is merely condescending.
    The term below your user id in the post is based on the number of posts you have done. The term will change as you write more posts. The thread about this can be found at Keiki forever? However the level limits are quoted below for quick reference:

    Keiki: 0 posts
    Haumana: 20 posts
    Kanaka: 50 posts
    Luna: 100 posts
    Kia`aina: 200 posts
    Kumu: 400 posts
    Ali`i: 800 posts

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    I hope this isn't one of those forums that dis's people for not reading every post in every sub-catagory on the entire forum Sheesh lighten up dude.
    Dave, we're generally a friendly (though sometimes frighteningly quirky) bunch. To be sure, a lot happens here and it's hard for anyone - myself included - to keep track of everything. Nonetheless, before feeling put-upon, try and take replies (or playful jabs) with a bit of humor while you're still new. Any group has an itch to "haze" the newcomers, but as online communities go, this one's pretty tame.

    Besides, before trying to read everything, our FAQ has some great introductory information, as does our Hale Heahea area. You can find the "search" tip, and the explanation of our evil, class-ist user titles.

    Oh, and "burger king commercial" would have found the breast ad. (How often do you get to type a sentence like that?)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    These terms are reminiscent of ancient Hawaiian culture where it was OK to own a slave...or at least treat someone like a slave.

    It's usually not a good idea to judge ancient Hawaiian culture (or most any other culture) using current mindset and standards of a society such as ours.
    For example, as for Ancient Egypt, people assume the Pyramids were constructed by slaves. But as in old Hawaii, these were not considered slaves. They were the proletariat that had it in ther mind, it was an honor to work for their kings, who they considered close to the gods.

    Hawaiians employed a class-based political system divided into four main classes:
    Alii,
    the kahuna,
    Makaainana,
    and the kauwa.
    The lowest class, the kauwa, was constituted of slaves. These were prisoners of war, also descendants of slaves,
    and persons who broke a kapu, or tapu.
    The employment of post ranking in this style on H.T., is in my eyes, a nod to our island heritage and not something that should be used as an argument to say:
    "here's another politically incorrect, condescending, humiliating, insulting thing about society! I am huuurrrt! Unfair!"



    would you prefer, maybe a more modern ranking system like:
    mailroom boy
    secretary
    account executive
    middle manager
    C.E.O.
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 09:54 AM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    It's usually not a good idea to judge ancient Hawaiian culture (or most any other culture) using current mindset and standards of a society such as ours.
    So societal/religion sanctioned incest was an OK thing back then? Putting someone to death for eating a banana? Aren’t there universal societal or humanity norms that are timeless?

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    For example, as for Ancient Egypt, people assume the Pyramids were constructed by slaves. But as in old Hawaii, these were not considered slaves. They were the proletariat that had it in ther mind, it was an honor to work for their kings, who they considered close to the gods.
    How do you know what kaua (outcast, pariah, slave, untouchable, a cast that lived apart and was drawn on for human sacrifices) thought over four hundred years ago?

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    Hawaiians employed a class-based political system divided into four main classes:
    Alii,
    the kahuna,
    Makaainana,
    and the kauwa.
    The lowest class, the kauwa, was constituted of slaves. These were prisoners of war, also descendants of slaves,
    and persons who broke a kapu, or tapu.
    The employment of post ranking in this style on H.T., is in my eyes, a nod to our island heritage and not something that should be used as an argument to say:
    "here's another politically incorrect, condescending, humiliating, insulting thing about society! I am huuurrrt! Unfair!"
    Like your crusade to make Tiki (Sacred religious revered Gods of Hawaii) a rallying point. How many people of Hawaiian ancestry practice that religion as it was practiced then? How can an icon be sacred if no one practices that religion? Why do people of Hawaiian ancestry sell these icons to the tourists in the Hilo market? Doesn't that trivialize and commercialize them?

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    would you prefer, maybe a more modern ranking system like:
    mailroom boy
    secretary
    account executive
    middle manager
    C.E.O.
    No, I would prefer that forums forgo ranking people solely based on the number of posts they have made.

    Don't get me wrong. I love Hawaii and it's history and culture. I think it was a shame what was done to the post-contact Hawaiians and Native Americans, for that matter. But I get a little fed up with people with 1/60th Hawaiian blood (maybe) getting all high and mighty about a culture that has for intents and purposes passed into history four hundred years ago. And romanticize about how great it was to the exclusion of facts about what it was really like back then.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    Aren’t there universal societal or humanity norms that are timeless?
    good question. One that prolly has no definitive answer. except to a dogmatic christian, maybe.
    How do you know what kaua (outcast, pariah, slave, untouchable, a cast that lived apart and was drawn on for human sacrifices) thought over four hundred years ago?
    no way to tell. But the general thought based upon much writings and chant is that the much of the work done by the much of the populace was not thought of as slave labor.
    Like your crusade to make Tiki (Sacred religious revered Gods of Hawaii) a rallying point. How many people of Hawaiian ancestry (now) practice that religion as it was practiced then?
    No way to tell, definitively. Mostly owed to the fact it has gone underground. But aside from that, cultural icons throughout Hawaiian history shouldn't automatically be put up on the auction block as soon as we assume they are no longer needed or assumed unwanted.
    And I am counted as among the many who still feel: "The gods dwell in the forest, hidden away by the mists and low-lying rainbow."

    (oh, and thank you for continuing to help make fake "tiki" a rallying point.)
    How can an icon be sacred if no one practices that religion?
    who is to say no one any longer practices a "religion" as it was two hundred years ago... or a variation of it? Who can say and who can judge what is held close to ones heart, revered as a great influence in the creation of the mind, body, soul of ones kupuna? Why would we want to assume a major part of daily life of ancestors, is not held in high regard?
    Many Ali'i Nui outwardly embraced Christianity back then, but internally still respected deeply their ancient Gods. As it was then, so it is now. Many still talk of the influence the polytheistic ways of old Hawaii play a major influence in their daily lives.
    Why do people of Hawaiian ancestry sell these icons to the tourists in the Hilo market? Doesn't that trivialize and commercialize them?
    probably. It would be very interesting to, non judgementally, ask their perspective. haven't seen this. so don't know if they are the mass produced plastic ones with the fake legends glued on the back:
    "god of good wine making."
    "Display this lucky tiki god Koroko on your microwave and all things produced by your cuisineart will be blessed with high mannah"

    or are they individually hand carved "works of art", as it were...
    But I get a little fed up with people... getting all high and mighty about a culture that has for intents and purposes passed into history four hundred years ago. And romanticize about how great it was to the exclusion of facts about what it was really like back then.
    Many see the culture as not having passed into history. many see the culture as experiencing a "revival" , a resurgence in interest, and some would like to stave off the inevitable death and complete decimation of Hawaiian culture, knowledge, wisdom, etc..
    obviously, with no interest in retaining the banana eating death punishment things...


    part of the learning is finding out exactly as close as we can learn, how it really was back then.
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 03:02 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    No, I would prefer that forums forgo ranking people solely based on the number of posts they have made.
    well, I have my peccadillos too, about this board. (and I realize they are too manini to mention) But I first and foremost realise it is the creation of Ryan Ozawa and respect his blood sweat toil and tears. And appreciate the privilege, (not a right) to make an ass of myself here on H.T.. And I don't second-guess his format choices. And I don't bitch about them (anymore). And if I want to see a board with changes, I can damn well whip up my own dogdammned thing myself. The way I wanna see it with or without class system. or any variation thereof. And if I do, and it has a class system based on post frequency with titles like "Pile o' parrot poop" for beginner, to
    "knave worthy of saying hello to da king" for frequent poster, and if anyone hates that format or denigrates or ridicules it in a derisive fashion I would be happy (if I didn't behead the cretin first,) to have any number of my subjects take the initiative to verbally slay the offender and proclaim "off with thee, and never darken our drawbridge again!"

    Like being a guest in someone's house and bitching:
    "oh sheeyit; maaaan, did you just call yer wife "punkin"?! That is sooo demeaning! So condescending. And what' da hell were ya thinkin' with this wallpaper?!"

    I would never diss his efforts by saying;
    "Cumoon ! Sheesh!
    This here's the kind of talk and design that turns people into lurkers and afraid to post... "Beige background" "plumeria logo"?! "Get a room, you two" gimmiabreak!

    I mean we have never yelled at you sayin';
    "hey dude, it's; "at the peak of ripeness" , not "the peek of ripeness..."

    Nope. When you create your own web site discussion board, you can be king.
    Until then, accept Ryan's format or don't view H.T.
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 03:01 PM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    Nope. When you create your own web site discussion board, you can be king.
    Until then, accept Ryan's format or don't view H.T.
    "I would prefer that forums forgo ranking people solely based on the number of posts they have made."

    All, or almost all, do some sort of ranking.

    I was just expressing my opinion about ranking members. I didn't say I didn't appreciate his efforts in creating and maintaining this forum. If Ryan wants to kick me off of this forum for that, so be it. You would probably like that.

    Christianity has supplanted a lot of indigenous religions including those existing in France, Germany and England, to name a few. I wouldn't presume to suggest that druidism or paganism has survived underground continuously if I was invested in reviving those religions. Good luck with that by the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    (oh, and thank you for continuing to help make fake "tiki" a rallying point.)
    I happen to like real and fake "tiki" and think you are making a big deal over nothing. There is no such thing as "cultural intellectual property rights", silly. That's like people trying to trademark the number "5" or something.

    Whether you like it or not tiki (or fake tiki) have moved into the collective popular iconography along with Elvis, shrunken heads and a million others. It's too late to re-appropriate them as religious icons.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    you are making a big deal over nothing.
    many kama'aina would beg to differ.
    There is no such thing as "cultural intellectual property rights", silly.
    is there an echo in here?
    many kama'aina would beg to differ.
    for example, IF... one is interested in a growing Native Hawaiian perspective; from: http://ilio.org/

    "On October 3-5, 2003, Kanaka Maoli of Ka Pae Äina Hawaii gathered at Ka Aha Pono – Native Hawaiian Intellectual Property Rights Conference – and united to express our collective right of self-determination to perpetuate our culture under threat of theft and commercialization of the traditional knowledge of Kanaka Maoli, our wahi pana and nä mea Hawaii.
    We declare our willingness to share our knowledge with humanity provided that we determine when, why, and how it is used. We have the right to exclude from use those who would exploit, privatize, and unfairly commercialize our traditional knowledge, cultural expressions and artforms, natural resources, biological material, and intellectual properties."

    http://ilio.org/Ilioonline/ahapono04/about.html

    For more, go to my site and review the links.

    For those that retain the view of:
    "oh, thass a buncha bull! I can turn this into a Disneyland cartoon thing if I wanna"...
    well.... I will send a christian your direction to pray for ya.
    And a kahuna to...

    That's like people trying to trademark the number "5" or something.
    uuuh, no. that would not be analogous at all.

    Whether you like it or not tiki (or fake tiki) have moved into the collective popular iconography along with Elvis, shrunken heads and a million others. It's too late to re-appropriate them as religious icons.
    "real tiki" moving into the "collective popular iconography" (or being appropriated by American Pop Culture) has, by the move, beCOME "fake tiki".
    Elvis and all representations of him are owned by EPE. A company with an army of lawyers ready to take down anyone using his image without licensing and/or in an inappropriate manner.

    The French own the name Champagne,.
    The Mexican government holds and vigorously protects the rights to the name tequila.
    These are, what is commonly referred to, as cultural intellectual property rights.
    (We represent The lollipop guild. And in the name of... The lollipop guild, We wish to welcome you to a... hitherto unknown (to you) part of world knowledge)

    But lawers or not, registering the trademark or not, thinking, conscientious thoughful adults interested in preserving the integrity of cultures and respecting the wishes of Native Pacific Islanders (and esp. in the case of those transplants living in Hawaii...) would leave the icons alone. Just because it is the pono thing to do. It is morally correct. No matter the legal loopholes that allow someone to commercialise/exploit it and mass produce fake polynesia.
    Just because a jewelry store can open us and use the name "Lono, God Of Peace" with a tm symbol, doesn't mean it is at all the right thing to do. In Hawaii, New York or germany.

    Although many see commonly used terms and "icons" used in a wholesale manner, doesn't mean they are up for grabs just cuz they are seen almost everywhere.
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 06:56 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    If Ryan wants to kick me off of this forum for that, so be it. You would probably like that.

    uh, no. I see you may have some potential to learn, so would prefer ya hang and read. and discuss.
    good for da brain. If the mind is open...
    just remember YOUR sig:
    "The farther one travels, The less one really knows"
    The Kingmans have travelled to Kona. and now Dave sees he knows less than he thought.
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 06:47 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    OK I'll bite.

    "the invasion of the infamous Mouse, now the legal creator and owner of a traditional chant"

    How can Disney(?) be the creator of a traditional chant? If they copyrighted an existing chant, that is egregious. No more egregious than IBM trying to patent the scrolling computer screen or Bill Gates failed attemp to trademark the number "5" giving birth to Pentium.

    ...and I still think all this sucks the fun out of life some how no matter who is doing it. It's like me getting together with some other descendants of the Mayflower passengers and saying that we own the rights to the Mayflower & Thanksgiving and all associated images...ridiculous.

    You can, and will put your spin on everything including my sig, but it was pointed more at people on the mainland thinking that moving to Hawaii, or any place else, would fulfill their lives. No, it's just another place, diminished possibly by a people looking to capitalize on their ancestry or taking themselves so seriously by trying to keep others from doing so. I see these efforts as ultimately damaging Hawaii’s reputation.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    OK I'll bite.

    "the invasion of the infamous Mouse, now the legal creator and owner of a traditional chant"

    How can Disney(?) be the creator of a traditional chant? If they copyrighted an existing chant, that is egregious.

    Not sure of that mouse quote. I suggest emailing ilio and querying. Enter into a discussion with them. Might be good.

    The patent and trademark office is largely ignorant of this, apparently new to many people, concept: cultural intellectual property rights.
    (altho they should be the first to recognize it.)
    They allowed someone to register:
    Ku and Lono Enterprises.
    So, again, we see the american machine isn't lacking in the egregious department.


    But thanks for sharing your perspective. It is good to see how others feel about this. helps in the elucidation of our... (ahem...) cause, as it were.
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 10:20 PM.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    ...and I still think all this sucks the fun out of life some how no matter who is doing it.

    Hawaii, ... it's just another place, diminished possibly by a people looking to capitalize on their ancestry or taking themselves so seriously by trying to keep others from doing so. I see these efforts as ultimately damaging Hawaii’s reputation.
    well, ok, sound logical, but from an american's point of view. Not from someone raised for may decades here. Not to an islander. Not to many kama'aina. Just be ready for some native Pacific islanders to say, "well, that's a mainland point of view; that we take ourselves too seriously by trying to stop the runaway commercialisation of Polynesian culture. And maybe we aren't happy with seeing our culture become a big goofy fun colorful carefree escape land that you can unload at and on, then return to your un-fun existence. (figuratively and literally)
    And native Hawaiians are in no way "capitalising on their ancestry". They are protecting it. No sarcasm and no offense meant, but this is really a mainlander's way of looking at it.
    Spin or no spin, I just haveta share from my experience and the mana'o shared with me; so many people here don't like the direction this junk has been going.
    Maybe they want Hawaii to develop a different "reputation".
    Last edited by kimo55; April 12th, 2005 at 11:03 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    But thanks for sharing your perspective. It is good to see how others feel about this. helps in the elucidation of our... (ahem...) cause, as it were.
    No problem. Any time you want an honest haole opinion you know where to go...come, I should say. I'll try to turn that pie in the face into lemonade, to mix a metaphor

  19. #19

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    ...
    Maybe they want Hawaii to develop a different "reputation".
    I think maybe you need to take that up with the kama'aina that depend on tourism.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    sorry, helen or admin, for not taking this to the other subject thread.

    http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=4731
    (which morphed into a chinatown thread!)

    don't know how to move it...

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    I think maybe you need to take that up with the kama'aina that depend on tourism.

    well, you see, that's a sticky wicket.
    just as sovereignty, there are no cut and dried answers.
    and the dependence of the islands on the military, too.
    necessary... well... evils, if you will. (not necessary in other's minds) How to balance all the needs. where to draw the line.
    That's what more public discussion can maybe come to. A better understanding of what Hawaii is and needs.
    and NOT from the Hawaii Tourist Authority and chamber of commerce only.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    I have got to say, this forum is soooo much better than Konaweb (even though they don't use member ratings)

    This thread would have been deleted yesterday, there, for being too negative.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    I have got to say, this forum is soooo much better than Konaweb

    oh yea, KonaBob!

    fun videos. cool site.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by kimo55
    sorry, helen or admin, for not taking this to the other subject thread.

    http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=4731
    (which morphed into a chinatown thread!)

    don't know how to move it...
    With the exception of the admin (at least to my knowledge) no one can move threads to other forums (I suspect Mel can but only within the Hawaii Media forum).

    I PM Ryan eariler this evening about this situation and suggested to move responses #48 and later to some other forum in HawaiiThreads.

    In the meantime I would suggest that either you or DaveNSoKona create a new thread in "Melting Pot" and continue the discussion there, sooner or later the ones here will be moved to that new thread. Let's keep this topic back to "Horrible Commericals".

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    This thread would have been deleted yesterday, there, for being too negative.
    Deleted no. Moved to another thread on another forum in HawaiiThreads is it's future. Let's face it one, two, maybe three off-topic post to a thread is not going to kill a thread, but fourteen in a row?
    Last edited by helen; April 13th, 2005 at 12:07 AM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Horrible commercial

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveNSoKona
    I have got to say, this forum is soooo much better than Konaweb (even though they don't use member ratings) This thread would have been deleted yesterday, there, for being too negative.
    And even this site is tame by comparison to others... Which tells ya I had to tame it down some to be allowed membership in this asylum...

    e.g.; here's a standard typical exchange on another board I frequent:


    ----


    "Re: New Members
    « Reply #1245 on: 04/12/2005 at 13:07:03 »

    on 04/12/2005 at 10:30:40, **** wrote:

    I just want to say hello to all the new people. Now go DIE.

    *******

    I'm an administrator of this board so I feel it is my duty to say that that was very funny.

    And welcome to all you new meat. We are all very nice but that doesn't mean that you get to avoid the extremely malicious and bloody initiation. Who's first?"

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