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Thread: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

  1. #226
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Can't believe I voted for Bush.

  2. #227
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by kamuelakea View Post
    I agree it is time for real Hawaiians, Native Hawaiians, 50% Hawaiians to "put their money where their mouth is" and start to get things done the American way.......... VIOLENCE.

    Yes, I am suggesting that civil disobedience should start. Shut down the airport, shut down Waikiki. Then in the long run, whatever it takes.
    I see great Mana in Kamuelakea.

  3. #228

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    The Akaka Bill was approved today with no changes by the House Natural Resources Committee. The next step is for the bill to be placed on the full House agenda. A similar bill is pending before the Senate Indian Affairs Committee, which has a hearing scheduled tomorrow.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  4. #229
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Nobody should hold their breath on this bill. According to a Breaking News item at this link on the Advertiser website:

    Bush administration 'strongly opposes' Akaka bill

    "The Bush administration "strongly opposes" a bill to create a process for a future Native Hawaiian government because it would divide governmental power along lines of race and ethnicity, a Justice Department official said today.
    "The administration believes that tribal recognition is inappropriate and unwise for Native Hawaiians," Gregory G. Katsas, principal associate attorney general for the Justice Department, said in a prepared statement to the Senate Indian Affairs Committee."


    Much more at the link above.

    .
    .

    That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

  5. #230

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Just wait for the next administration, perhaps the political climate will change. However, I wonder if folks who support the Akaka Bill realize giving native Hawaiians the same rights as native Americans would effectively spell the end of any independence movement?

  6. #231

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    There are two ways of looking at this: one, if the Akaka Bill passes, at least it preserves the programs that already exist for the kanaka maoli as opposed to taking more away from them; two, if it doesn't pass, then the sovereignty people continue their battle for full independence from the US.

    If both the full House and Senate pass their respective bills, then it would set up another potential veto by the President, who, BTW, will probably veto a bill that just passed the House (and probably will pass in the Senate), making crimes based on sexual orientation violations of the Civil Rights Act. (So I guess the White House is against minorities, period).

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  7. #232
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    Lightbulb Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    There are two ways of looking at this: one, if the Akaka Bill passes, at least it preserves the programs that already exist for the kanaka maoli as opposed to taking more away from them; two, if it doesn’t pass, then the sovereignty people continue their battle for full independence from the US.
    You are making a big assumption, Miulang, that Senator Akaka will give up his fight if the bill doesn't pass. Surely, he will do his best to convince fellow Dems on Capitol Hill to give him another chance once a Dem is in the Oval Office. (And yes, I don’t think the GOP can field a winning candidate for the ‘08 Presidential Election, but I realize it is early)

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  8. #233

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by TuNnL View Post
    You are making a big assumption, Miulang, that Senator Akaka will give up his fight if the bill doesn't pass. Surely, he will do his best to convince fellow Dems on Capitol Hill to give him another chance once a Dem is in the Oval Office. (And yes, I don’t think the GOP can field a winning candidate for the ‘08 Presidential Election, but I realize it is early)
    Even if the Akaka Bill passes, I doubt the sovereignty movement will go away. I don't like the watered down Akaka Bill, either, but not for the reasons that most people who are against it are. I think the original Akaka Bill would have given parity to the kanaka maoli more than this current version does; right now if this bill passed, it would give the kanaka maoli fewer rights than the ones the Native American tribes have via their treaties, so the kanaka maoli would only preserve what they currently have but get no more, and they do deserve more than what they are getting now.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  9. #234

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    *snort*

    A toothless dog cain't bite.

  10. #235
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    I think the original Akaka Bill would have given parity to the kanaka maoli

    I have asked before, and I will ask again....

    What is IT that naturally prevents kanaka maoli from attaining parity??

    I would never presume that any of my Hawaiian friends are incapable. In fact, I really can't figure out who we are talking about?? Maybe if I had an example to work with, that would help.

    Miulang, can you tell me about some of the Hawaiians, that you know, who are so incapable of living their lives, that government assistance is the only answer for them.

    I ask these questions with the utmost respect, and curiosity.
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  11. #236
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    um, could it possibly be the theft of their Nation?

    Suggest that anyone who questions the "independence" issue take the time to read Tom Coffman's book "Nation Within". or even, for those of you with short attention spans - rent the video. It was filmed for a PBS show a couple of years ago.

    Then, maybe - those of you with questions can come back with some that make sense. Rather than just asking questions "with the utmost respect, and curiosity" which is somewhat condescending. Of course, I'm saying this with the utmost respect to those of you non-Hawaiians who seem to be doing most of the questioning.

  12. #237
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Okay, anapuni, since you are the first person to actually attempt to answer that stinging question, then I say thank you.

    But I am not making the connection between an event that took place 120 years ago, and the affect that event has on a person's life today. Are you trying to say that event negatively affects a kid's performance in school today? Or negatively affects a person's ability to hold a job?

    And what is IT, specifically, that causes the overthrow event to harm Hawaiians, while not harming other races that were living in Hawaii at the same time? And how come there are so many Hawaiians who own their homes, work for a living, have wonderful, bright children, and lives filled with love and good times? How do you explain that?

    It's been over 100 years. How long will you need the help? WHO NEEDS THE HELP?? And whatever happened to the notion of personal pride? Handouts are not the path to high self-esteem.

    It's clear to me that I don't get it. It is also clear to me that nobody on this forum has been able to explain it clearly, or logically. You must answer some of these tough questions to legitimize the 'poor me' argument that this thread is based upon.

    The pedigree of you mom and dad simply doesn't matter. That is a tough pill to swallow in place that clings to a false ego-mania rooted in anachronistic nationalism.
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  13. #238

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Sure, some kanaka maoli families have managed to climb out of a hole that was dug for them in 1898. But per capita, there are more economically struggling kanaka maoli families than other families. Why is that? You yourself have said that the kanakas are as smart as everyone else. So what is holding them back?

    You didn't live in Hawai'i pre-1970s when kanaka high school kids were all thought of as being bad (they were the ones who were troublemakers and who smoked in the lavs, we were told); you didn't live in Hawai'i when the Hawaiian language was not something that was taught formally anywhere and was only learned at the feet of kupuna. And we're not talking about something that only happened 100 years ago. As recently as the 1970s this was still going on.

    What do you mean, kanakas don't have pride? They have been able to hold on to the pride they have as being the first settlers of Hawai'i throughout all the times when they were pushed into the background by others who came after them. But did they rise up and massacre any of the interlopers? No. On the contrary, they welcomed all newcomers into their homes, shared their food and friendship. And what did they get? Relegation to the back of the bus for their hospitality.

    Why do the current Native Hawaiian programs exist? They exist so that those who need the extra help to get out of the socioeconomic holes they were put in by America can avail themselves of services they could not otherwise afford. Those who don't need the help won't ask for it, but there are still enough kanaka families who haven't quite made it over the huge chasm that developed over the years.

    I don't know why you're so worried about sovereignty, Tim. You already "bought" your land...you've got your piece of paradise. Even in a sovereign country, you would not be tossed out on your okole.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  14. #239
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Socioeconomic holes exist for folks of many different races.

    But per capita, there are more economically struggling kanaka maoli families than other families. Why is that? You yourself have said that the kanakas are as smart as everyone else. So what is holding them back?

    Perhaps it is their race that is holding them back. That would be the premise based upon your desire for racially exclusive entitlement. I do not agree with that, but what other logic do you have to defend your stance.

    What do you mean, kanakas don't have pride?

    I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth.

    But did they rise up and massacre any of the interlopers?

    Only Kamehameha is allowed to massacre people, and be a hero for it.

    Sovereignty doesn't bother me at all. It's imaginary. If you want to help the disadvantaged, I'm all for it. But if you only want to help SOME of the disadvantaged, and you base the criteria upon race, then you have made an enemy. Racism is dying slowly. Get over it.
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  15. #240

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Socioeconomic holes exist for folks of many different races.

    But per capita, there are more economically struggling kanaka maoli families than other families. Why is that? You yourself have said that the kanakas are as smart as everyone else. So what is holding them back?

    Perhaps it is their race that is holding them back. That would be the premise based upon your desire for racially exclusive entitlement. I do not agree with that, but what other logic do you have to defend your stance.

    What do you mean, kanakas don't have pride?

    I didn't say that. Don't put words in my mouth.

    But did they rise up and massacre any of the interlopers?

    Only Kamehameha is allowed to massacre people, and be a hero for it.

    Sovereignty doesn't bother me at all. It's imaginary. If you want to help the disadvantaged, I'm all for it. But if you only want to help SOME of the disadvantaged, and you base the criteria upon race, then you have made an enemy. Racism is dying slowly. Get over it.
    Sorry Tim. Racism will always exist in some form or other. America will never be the utopia you and others who have drunk that Kool-Aid would like for it to be. Maybe there will be true equality on that new planet they think could support life outside our solar system (where everybody really would start as equals because there would be no historical baggage to carry around, until the second generation of settlers, anyway). It's very easy to talk about "equality" when you're in the majority (not in the case of Hawai'i, in your instance, but in the case of the entire USA).

    Miulang

    P.S. are you raising your daughter to believe that she is no better or no worse than any of her classmates?
    Last edited by Miulang; May 5th, 2007 at 10:02 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  16. #241
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Miulang, your logic reminds me of a moebius strip. In the same sentence you say that I am in the majority, AND not in the majority. You are so fun. So if I'm not the majority in Hawaii, do I qualify for some special program based on my freckled skin color?

    Racism exists in YOUR life a lot more than mine. Racism exists a lot more in Hawaii than in SF Bay Area. Racism is slowly dying as the races interbreed in our modern age of jet travel. Racism is a tool that the ignorant use to deflect criticism. Racism is imaginary, and intentionally taught to children, so as to pass it on from generation to generation. Teaching children to be racists is child abuse, and should be dealt with by CPS. Racism is rooted in ego-mania. Strom Thurmond used the same arguments 50 years ago against black folks that some people use today to justify entitlement.

    Times change. Some people don't. At least Thurmond softened in his old age.

    As far as school goes, my daughter is doing better than many of her classmates. It's a testament to the long hours spent reading, and playing math games with her over the last 4 years. I do teach my daughter to have high self esteem, rooted in accomplishment and merit. She has no sense of entitlement, and certainly none of the negative energy associated with racism.
    Last edited by timkona; May 5th, 2007 at 10:15 AM.
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  17. #242

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Miulang, your logic reminds me of a moebius strip. In the same sentence you say that I am in the majority, AND not in the majority. You are so fun. So if I'm not the majority in Hawaii, do I qualify for some special program based on my freckled skin color?

    Racism exists in YOUR life a lot more than mine. Racism exists a lot more in Hawaii than in SF Bay Area. Racism is slowly dying as the races interbreed in our modern age of jet travel. Racism is a tool that the ignorant use to deflect criticism. Racism is imaginary, and intentionally taught to children, so as to pass it on from generation to generation. Teaching children to be racists is child abuse, and should be dealt with by CPS. Racism is rooted in ego-mania. Strom Thurmond used the same arguments 50 years ago against black folks that some people use today to justify entitlement.

    Times change. Some people don't. At least Thurmond softened in his old age.
    So are you teaching your beautiful daughter that she's no better than the poorest kid in her class? And racism is not worse in Hawai'i then anywhere on CONUS. Tell that to the 20+ people in LA who got mowed down by the cops just for attending a march on May 1 for immigration rights. Tell that to the NBA players who studies have shown are penalized more for fouls than their white teammates.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; May 5th, 2007 at 10:18 AM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  18. #243

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    Even if the Akaka Bill passes,...I think the original Akaka Bill would have given parity to the kanaka maoli more than this current version does; right now if this bill passed, it would give the kanaka maoli fewer rights than the ones the Native American tribes have via their treaties, so the kanaka maoli would only preserve what they currently have but get no more, and they do deserve more than what they are getting now.

    Miulang
    It is hotly contested that "Native Hawaiian preservation opportunities" would be protected, promoted, etc under *any* form of US federal legislation. As it stands now, those federally-funded programs are NOT based on ethnic or quantum requirements. (NHHA, NHEA). The organizations who apply for such funding do not have to be NH to apply, and the beneficiaries of their programs do NOT have to be NH. The impetus upon them is to track the results and progress of such programs and must include advancement of NH culture, language, and health--not ethnicity.

    The question begs: how would an 800-watts line to DC for a "kanaka office" if you will, save "Hawaiian programs"? Navajos are federally recognized, lobbied hard, and yet lost Head Start funding (and have you been to Navajo territory recently? Talk about, well, let's not go there) which is a shame, considering their stats.

    And I am not the only one who believes that becoming like the Native Americans is a helluva step backwards, on a logistical level.

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    I think the original Akaka Bill would have given parity to the kanaka maoli

    I have asked before, and I will ask again....

    What is IT that naturally prevents kanaka maoli from attaining parity??
    nothing does. Let's be honest: the public assumes that the majority of funding is driven by the assumption of the "deficit model"-- first they gotta suck, so the government is obliging itself to help them. But legislated funding does not follow this model, as I mentioned above about the funding cycle. The public doesn't seem to understand that they (we) are out of touch with what the reality is.

    pax

  19. #244
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by timkona View Post
    Racism exists in YOUR life a lot more than mine. Racism exists a lot more in Hawaii than in SF Bay Area. Racism is slowly dying as the races interbreed in our modern age of jet travel. Racism is a tool that the ignorant use to deflect criticism. Racism is imaginary, and intentionally taught to children, so as to pass it on from generation to generation. Teaching children to be racists is child abuse, and should be dealt with by CPS. Racism is rooted in ego-mania. Strom Thurmond used the same arguments 50 years ago against black folks that some people use today to justify entitlement.

    Times change. Some people don't. At least Thurmond softened in his old age.
    Strom Thurmond's daughter, Essie Mae Washington-Williams, probably had something to do with his "softening" and she was born before the "modern age of jet travel."
    Ā Ē Ī Ō Ū ā ē ī ō ū -- Just a little something to "cut and paste."

  20. #245
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    It is truly refreshing, Pua'i, to hear somebody else agree that nothing prevents Hawaiians from attaining parity. Your positive view of Hawaiians and their ability to achieve anything in their lives is the kind of motivation that we need more of in this state. The entitlement mentality, and its' 'defecit model' is a joke when you presume that an entire race of people "gotta suck".

    I spend a lot of my life telling children that they can be awesome at everything. Especially football.
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  21. #246
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    You can bet the bank on this one, I would fight tooth and nail if there wasany attempt to break Hawaii from the United States. I really strongly believe
    it would be selfish on the part of Hawaiians to do such a thing. What about all the other racial groups that live here ? Are we expected to pack up and
    leave if/when this happens ?

    In my case it would be very hard to do the latter. Especially since I was born and raised here in Kona. I have no connection to the mainland whatsoever.
    Except just visiting over there a handful of times. In short, the mainland is not for me. Even though, I'm a haole I have a deep physical/spiritual connection to Hawaii.

    Yes the Hawaiians have been wronged. During my life living here, I have seen that up close and personal. But like I said, I don't believe breaking away from
    the United States is the answer, nor is the Akaka bill.
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  22. #247

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konaguy View Post
    You can bet the bank on this one, I would fight tooth and nail if there wasany attempt to break Hawaii from the United States. I really strongly believe
    it would be selfish on the part of Hawaiians to do such a thing. What about all the other racial groups that live here ? Are we expected to pack up and
    leave if/when this happens ?

    In my case it would be very hard to do the latter. Especially since I was born and raised here in Kona. I have no connection to the mainland whatsoever.
    Except just visiting over there a handful of times. In short, the mainland is not for me. Even though, I'm a haole I have a deep physical/spiritual connection to Hawaii.

    Yes the Hawaiians have been wronged. During my life living here, I have seen that up close and personal. But like I said, I don't believe breaking away from
    the United States is the answer, nor is the Akaka bill.
    As far as I know, none of the proposals I've seen from the sovereignty groups says anything about expelling non-Hawaiians or taking away land that they own. They would become citizens of the country and could choose dual citizenship if they wanted, so don't pack your bags yet, Aaron.

    Miulang
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  23. #248
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    As far as I know, none of the proposals I've seen from the sovereignty groups says anything about expelling non-Hawaiians or taking away land that they own. They would become citizens of the country and could choose dual citizenship if they wanted, so don't pack your bags yet, Aaron.

    Miulang
    Well one of the many things I've learned in my life, there is no guarantees.In other words, no one knows what will happen for sure if/when it happens.Just imagine if one of the hardline sovereignty groups gain control

    I've listened and read many people talk about breaking away from the United States. Frankly the thought really frightens the living daylights out me. As I believe it would be a huge step backwards for Hawaii.

    Like what Sen. Inouye said in regards to breaking away from the United States, he said "the Civil War has resolved the issue." . It would not be a very positive thing to Hawaii turn into another Fiji.
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  24. #249

    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Konaguy View Post
    Like what Sen. Inouye said in regards to breaking away from the United States, he said "the Civil War has resolved the issue." . It would not be a very positive thing to Hawaii turn into another Fiji.
    As some sovereignty proponents would say, Hawai'i technically could secede because in 1893, the monarchy was overthrown by the US government. It did not willingly become a territory of its own accord. To back that up, the US Congress officially apologized in 1993 for the overthrow and acknowledged that the federal government was wrong to annex Hawai'i.

    So even though the majority of Territorial residents voted for statehood in 1959, the sovereignty people claim that they couldn't really have voted to become part of the Union because they never willingly joined the Union in the first place; in other words, you can't secede if you never were a part of it in the first place.

    Miulang
    Last edited by Miulang; May 5th, 2007 at 06:12 PM.
    "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

  25. #250
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    Default Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miulang View Post
    As some sovereignty proponents would say, Hawai'i technically could secede because in 1893, the monarchy was overthrown by the US government. It did not willingly become a territory of its own accord. To back that up, the US Congress officially apologized in 1993 for the overthrow and acknowledged that the federal government was wrong to annex Hawai'i.

    So even though the majority of Territorial residents voted for statehood in 1959, the sovereignty people claim that they couldn't really have voted to become part of the Union because they never willingly joined the Union in the first place; in other words, you can't secede if you never were a part of it in the first place.
    I believe too many people are living in the past is the real problem here. Yes the monarchy was overthrown in 1893. But really what does that have to do with anything in present day ?

    I think the real question here is are we better off being a part of the United States or being independent ? I think we are better off being a part of the US. As far as I recall in mid to late 1800's other countries tried to make a play for Hawaii . If Hawaii became independent again history will repeat itself.
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