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**Creative-1** · June 10, 2006, 12:06 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

What irks me is the PROCESS we so often take in Hawaii of not letting the community examine and discuss important issues.

The Akaka Bill has been before Congress for 6 years, but only 1-2 hearings were held (this year!) in Hawaii so that people could get a sense of what it would mean.

Many seen to feel "something must be done" but WHAT is very vague.

We would not have understood what he Akaka Bill would have done until after it was implemented. And if there were serious downsides, it would have been too late to correct it.

We're doing the same thing with rail transit. The public knows something must be done, but knows next to nothing about the details.

I was shocked to hear no US city that has built rail transit has had it's traffic congestion improve, and that only 3-5% of commuters in those cities use rail. Yet, in Hawaii, the powers that be constantly say it will alleviate congestion here. (Based on wishful thinking only, it appears).

Maybe this is a remnant of the plantation days when we let others make important decisions about our lives. But we now know they often did a poor job of it.

Bob Sigall

**Miulang** · June 10, 2006, 12:41 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Creative-1

We're doing the same thing with rail transit. The public knows something must be done, but knows next to nothing about the details.

I was shocked to hear no US city that has built rail transit has had it's traffic congestion improve, and that only 3-5% of commuters in those cities use rail. Yet, in Hawaii, the powers that be constantly say it will alleviate congestion here. (Based on wishful thinking only, it appears).

Maybe this is a remnant of the plantation days when we let others make important decisions about our lives. But we now know they often did a poor job of it.

Bob Sigall

Think about it, though: the HRT&L in 1901 was able to use 10 electric trolleys to move 20,000 people on its first day of service. 9 years later, the system had transported 9 MILLION people over 7 miles of track. If it was done before, why couldn't it be done now? Is it because people are too wedded to their cars?

Miulang

P.S. If people were concerned enough about things like this, they would take it upon themselves to ask questions and get answers for themselves, not wait until some public/governmental body came out with skewed facts and statistics.

**Creative-1** · June 10, 2006, 01:01 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Miulang

Think about it, though: the HRT&L in 1901 was able to use 10 electric trolleys to move 20,000 people on its first day of service. 9 years later, the system had transported 9 MILLION people over 7 miles of track. If it was done before, why couldn't it be done now? Is it because people are too wedded to their cars?

Miulang

There were no cars on Oahu in 1901, and very few by 1910. Most rode the OR&L, HRT, horses or walked.

Now we have 500,000 cars. If you ask people what their favorite posession is, many will say their cars.

People want OTHERS to ride rail so they can zoom into town in the cars.

We have a TRAFFIC problem in Honolulu, not a TRANSIT problem. You can't solve one with the other, as witnessed by 30 US cities' failed attempts.

That's how I see it. But I'm no expert.

Bob Sigall

**Miulang** · June 10, 2006, 01:09 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Creative-1

There were no cars on Oahu in 1901, and very few by 1910. Most rode the OR&L, HRT, horses or walked.

Now we have 500,000 cars. If you ask people what their favorite posession is, many will say their cars.

People want OTHERS to ride rail so they can zoom into town in the cars.

We have a TRAFFIC problem in Honolulu, not a TRANSIT problem. You can't solve one with the other, as witnessed by 30 US cities' failed attempts.

That's how I see it. But I'm no expert.

Bob Sigall

Ahhh...there's the answer! Put a user tax on cars that's so exorbitant that people will willingly give up their cars to use public transportation!

Or make it even more impossible to find parking spaces downtown!

Seriously though, up here in Seattle, we're expanding our regional rail system so that service will extend from Everett down to Tacoma (this covers pretty much the entire Puget Sound corridor). They were actually going to have a leg of the track run directly to the airport (I would have used it!), but the voters decided it would cost too much money. We aren't getting a monorail for Seattle anymore, but the region will be getting a light rail system that should be pretty efficient at moving people around during the work week. There's no problem with cars on the weekend.

Miulang

**mel** · June 10, 2006, 03:59 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Miulang

Ahhh...there's the answer! Put a user tax on cars that's so exorbitant that people will willingly give up their cars to use public transportation!

Or make it even more impossible to find parking spaces downtown!

It is real easy for people who live 2,500 miles away to say "put a user tax on cars " since they don't have to pay it as long as they live far, far away from Hawaii. Stop telling Hawaii people what to do and what to think and tend to your own issues in the great Northwest.

Typical liberal view to tax anything they hate.

Tax the hell out of the citizens. Just like the tobacco tax. Just like the bottle tax. Just like all other taxes that aim to penalize activities that are perfectly legal and that people choose to engage in!

Creative 1 is correct. There are no hearings on the Akaka Bill in which the people can pariticpate in on a regular basis during the decision making period. It is strange too that our local media has not conducted their own polls regarding the Akaka Bill. Relying in OHA or Grassroot Institute will yield the results that each group wants, so the outcomes are suspect.

On rail again, Creative 1 is correct. Only 3 to 5% of the population will ever use it, even if gas and taxes are increased (which it already has been to fund building rail or whatever it is they really want).... Expect more taxes if rail should ever take off.

Back to Akaka - there was a resolution introduced in the legislature this year that would ask for a plebiscite to allow the voters to decide if they really want a change so drastic that the Akaka bill legislation would force upon people. But as usual the powers that be in the big square building did not even give that plebiscite resolution a hearing.

Lastly Hawaii is part of the United States of America. Will always be.

Hawaii's population has had enough taxes rammed down our throats. The time to stop this madness is now. No more new taxes!

**Miulang** · June 10, 2006, 04:52 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Calm down, Mel. I was being facetious (or did you not notice the smiley face?) I was excessively taxed (to the point of having to pay an extra $500+ for 3 years for a monorail plan that died before we even saw one inch of track laid).

Miulang

**Creative-1** · June 10, 2006, 05:48 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Miulang

Calm down, Mel. I was being facetious (or did you not notice the smiley face?) I was excessively taxed (to the point of having to pay an extra $500+ for 3 years for a monorail plan that died before we even saw one inch of track laid).

Miulang

$500 in taxes for 3 years??? I'd gladly trade places with you. Here we will pay about that much per year MORE in GE Taxes forever with the 1/2% increase.

What they're not saying (to tie this into the subject of this thread) is that 1/2% is nowhere near enough. It will be at least twice that, and more likely 3-4 times that.

Not only that, the choice of which tax to use was deliberately chosen because 2/3rds of it is hidden in the price of things. We're charged 4%, but twice that is hidden in a higher shelf price due to the pyramiding.

If they raised it through the property tax, it would have required a 45% increase - which would have caused an outrage.

The alternative would have been a 56 cent increase in the gasoline tax, also outrageous.

No, they chose the GET because no one understands it. We think it's only 4%, but if it was like California's sales tax, it would have to be 18%!

Just like with the Akaka Bill, they won't explain all its ramifications and costs because they KNOW we wouldn't support it if we fully understood it.

They think we're sheep and we'll just go along. Unfortunately for us, they're right! Yikes.

Bob

**Miulang** · June 10, 2006, 05:59 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Creative-1

$500 in taxes for 3 years??? I'd gladly trade places with you. Here we will pay about that much per year MORE in GE Taxes forever with the 1/2% increase....

Bob

No, a total of $1500 over 3 years just for my car tabs and another $1400 annually for property taxes. Our County sales tax is 8.10%. Good thing there's no State income tax! If we hadn't killed the Seattle Monorail plan this year, I would have had to keep paying that tax for another 10 years. Without that surcharge, my car tabs should be less than $100 every year until the County decides to tax me to replace the Alaska Way Viaduct.

Miulang

**LikaNui** · June 10, 2006, 06:16 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Miulang

Think about it, though: the HRT&L in 1901 (...)

Sorry, Miulang, but transportation items from 105 years ago are absolutely, totally and completely useless and meaningless.
But interesting nonetheless.

However, that's for another thread. On the matter of the Akaka Bill, I'll just say that it saddens me that with all the various factions and sovereignty groups, not even two of them can agree on a plan or a process. As long as there is so very much division, and until the various groups can agree to agree (or can even agree to discuss agreeing) nothing will ever happen.
When mainlanders see the reports that so many Hawaiians themselves don't back the Akaka Bill, why on earth would they support it?

**LikaNui** · June 10, 2006, 06:19 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Creative-1

We have a TRAFFIC problem in Honolulu, not a TRANSIT problem. You can't solve one with the other, as witnessed by 30 US cities' failed attempts.
That's how I see it. But I'm no expert.

Well you're obviously a helluva lot smarter than anyone who thinks rail transit will work. I can't imagine a bigger waste of money.

(Oops. Thread drift. My bad.)

**LikaNui** · June 10, 2006, 06:24 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Miulang

up here in Seattle,

When there's a thread started about transit issues in Seattle, that'll be useful. But what Seattle does has no relevancy whatsoever to what O`ahu needs. Apples and oranges.
I respect your opinions a lot of the time, Miulang, but in my humble opinion (which I've had for a long time but haven't mentioned until now) there are just waaaaay too many references to "here's how we do it in Seattle". You of all people should know how statements like that are reviled here in the islands. Just something for ya to think about, perhaps.

**Miulang** · June 10, 2006, 07:17 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

This article is in tomorrow's (Sunday)NYT about the Akaka Bill and its future. At least it's still getting some national coverage.

Miulang

**waioli kai** · June 10, 2006, 07:21 PM

Re: some comments on the Akaka Bill, please

.

Miulang= "This article is in tomorrow's (Sunday)NYT about the Akaka Bill and its future. At least it's still getting some national coverage."

Isn't that ironic? Only yesterday there was a request that "Comments on the Akaka Bill" ** be closed.

There is the US Right pro-American, anti-Kamehameha Schools' Hawai'ian-admissions preferencing, " in it for the dough, $ee? ", pro-Boy Doe lawyers' "The only good American Indian is a dead one." mentality faction in Hawaii, near exclusively with mainland roots, but for residual corporatUSt plantation and non-Hawai'ian private estate empires.

There is a relatively ambivalent Kamehameha Schools' Hawai'ian-admissions preferencing, anti-Bishop Estate mentality comprised of Hawaiians (as in 'Tenneseeans', Senator Lamar Alexander said Thursday) who may or may not have pocket$ issues with Bishop Estate.

There is the Hawai'ian "What has Bishop Estate or Kamehameha Schools ever done for me? ", pro-Kamehameha Schools' Hawai'ian-admissions preferencing mentality.

In this generation's political and social atmosphere in Hawai'i and Hawaii, it is not surprising that there are motions to let discussion of the Akaka Bill die "because, afterall, it was again beat down once again" by US fascUSt$ . Unlike the fascUSt 41%minimum of the U.S.Senate, and an unfortunate number of Hawaii residents as well, the national media to a relatively large degree does know something of the knowable about Hawai'i and Hawaii, and many in the national media have likely gleened appreciation for the unknowable which time spent in Hawai'i allows. Relative to the average American Joe, his couisins and extended families, mainland folks who are professional reporters of national and international news know Hawai'i as communities among islands, not Hawaii as some sort of arbitrary land-survey-defined landscape of political and social homogeneity.

** "Comments on the Akaka Bill" is a thread begun this way:

Title: i would like some comments on the Akaka bill please

Pualeilani= "Hello i am a Native Hawaiian College student in Chico, California. I am currently writting a thesis paper on the akaka bill i have done lots of research on this bill as well as the history of dispossesion my people have experienced what i do not have is other Hawaiians thoughts and opinons on the Akaka bill and i am putting this out there with out the predjudice of my own opinion. so i am asking everyone to reply and let me know "What do YOU think of the Akaka bill? " ==

The first post in this thread is good one to read every once in a while just for its refreshment value as an uncynical expression of thought. The blessings of youth. No wonder it is so hard to resume formal studies in our educational systems once one has been absent from them very long.

**kamuelakea** · June 10, 2006, 07:46 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by Creative-1

Just like with the Akaka Bill, they won't explain all its ramifications and costs because they KNOW we wouldn't support it if we fully understood it.Bob

Sorry, but the 80% of people in Hawaii who CHOSE to immigrate to Hawaii or who CHOOSE to remain in Hawaii after their ancestors CHOSE to immigrate to Hawaii do not get to compete against the 20% of Hawaii who are really Hawaiian when it comes to decisions regarding THEIR former Nation and their future Nation.

Don't hide your prejudice behind "democracy". There is a fine line between "democracy" and "majority rule" and "mob rule".

It is obvious who would win such a vote but that does not make it just. Hawaiians are outnumbered 5 to 1. "Democratic" poll taking of the majority population tell us nothing about justice.

Originally posted by kamuelakea

Ignore the overthrow itself for a moment.

The US Constitution, which I'm sure you love, forbids the US from expanding its territory to other countries without TREATY.

There was no treaty. Only a congressional vote.

Obviously an illegal expansion of territory.

So What you say?

The Silence is Deafening?????????

Anybody care what the US Constitution says about Hawaii "becoming a part of the United States" without a treaty???????

Oh, I see, we'll just pretend that little technicality doesn't exist.

**Konaguy** · June 10, 2006, 08:14 PM

Re: Comments on the Akaka Bill?

Originally posted by kamuelakea

The Silence is Deafening?????????

Anybody care what the US Constitution says about Hawaii "becoming a part of the United States" without a treaty???????

Oh, I see, we'll just pretend that little technicality doesn't exist.

My .25 on this is, I believe too much time has past to undue the overthrow.
It is simply impractical, unfeasible to even contemplate a sovereign Hawaii.
On top of that I remember Sen. Inouye saying it would not be possible
for Hawaii to break away, citing the US Civil War.

Really what should be voted upon by the voters of Hawaii is not the Akaka bill, but who would support a independent Hawaii. Time to put your money where your mouth is.