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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Rail is what most people want. Despite an intense anti-rail campaign, and a last-minute revelation the cost would be higher than initially projected, the majority of voters expressed a desire to get a rail system installed and operating here in Honolulu.

    Lots of people didn't agree, but the majority did.

    The election is over. Groundbreaking is next year.

    Comment


    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by salmoned View Post
      If rail supporters REALLY wanted to support a solution....
      Funny how you know what's "best" for rail supporters. When are you sending us to "education camps"?

      Comment


      • Re: Rail Transit

        Joshuatree, funny how you thought I had commented on or cared about what's best for rail supporters - never have, never will. I only commented on what's best for relieving Oahu's traffic congestion.

        Composite 2992, pro-rail groups outspent anti-rail groups by more than 6 (not including taxpayer-funded pro-rail spending) to 1. YOU may define that as an intense anti-rail campaign, however, I would define that as an intense pro-rail campaign. To surmise that the results prove 'rail is what most people want' is a specious observation. Let the electorate be fully informed and vote on a slate of the best alternatives, then we will see what most of the electorate wants regarding traffic relief. 'Yes or no' on rail does not inform us as to what people want regarding traffic relief, since no alternative was provided. It only informs us that rail is currently preferred over doing nothing.
        Last edited by salmoned; November 5, 2008, 03:37 PM.
        May I always be found beneath your contempt.

        Comment


        • Re: Rail Transit

          Transportation options have been studied for three decades. Since the 1970s. Lots of discussion in recent months from both sides.

          Panos entered the mayoral race just to oppose rail. Kobayashi picked up the torch and adopted Panos' views just to oppose rail.

          There were press releases sent out to inform the media about anti-rail lawsuits and other legal maneuvers

          To say that anti-rail didn't rally an intense campaign to stop the rail is pure BS.

          It was put up to a vote and the majority chose rail. It's what the majority wants.

          Pau.

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
            TIt was put up to a vote and the majority chose rail. It's what the majority wants.

            Pau.
            Agreed, some people can't lose gracefully, nothing more to comment in that arena.

            Comment


            • Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
              Transportation options have been studied for three decades. Since the 1970s. Lots of discussion in recent months from both sides.

              Panos entered the mayoral race just to oppose rail. Kobayashi picked up the torch and adopted Panos' views just to oppose rail.

              There were press releases sent out to inform the media about anti-rail lawsuits and other legal maneuvers

              To say that anti-rail didn't rally an intense campaign to stop the rail is pure BS.

              It was put up to a vote and the majority chose rail. It's what the majority wants.

              Pau.
              Well, I suppose if anti-rail groups mounted 'an intense campaign', then pro-rail groups, including the mayor, mounted an 'even more intense campaign'. Intensity is relative, spending more than 6X as much looks 6X as intense on TV, in flyers and other media. Even so, all that propaganda (pro-rail forces weren't offering facts and statistics on existing rail systems, only estimates piled onto uniquely favorable estimates of potentialities for our 'exceptional' rail situation) resulted in about 32% of the electorate voting 'Yes' on the measure. That doesn't add up to a majority of the electorate, although it was a majority of the votes cast/counted.

              However, if pro-rail forces didn't 'give up' in prior decades of losing on this issue, why should anti-rail forces 'give up' now? This issue is too narrowly divided for either side to expect the other to 'give up' or 'step aside'. One 'Yes' vote by 32% of the electorate in 30 years does not a mandate make. Of course the 'winners' want to put the issue 'to bed', consider it a 'done deal' (as Mufi did last year without even suggesting a vote on the issue). I'm willing to entertain 'reasons' why anti-rail forces should 'give up', but don't start claiming 'a majority' unless and until you truly have one.

              When someone's convicted of a crime, should they just 'give up' and accede to the punishment or should they continue to fight and appeal their case until all recourse is exhausted? Were anti-rail forces to yield now, it would only 'prove' their lack of conviction (just as the converse would have held true).

              Building a rail system will make quite a few people/organizations quite wealthy. Not building rail will make no one wealthy, but it will prevent the poor from losing more of what little they have. The economic benefit/cost is tilted completely toward wealthy recipients and away from poor contributors, since the wealthy can afford to spend on a campaign to become more wealthy, but the poor cannot spend the little they have on anything but necessities. It's unfortunate when the wealthy use their wealth to subjugate and burden the poor with taxes today for false promises of potential benefit far in the future, but educated people must do what can be done to support equity and truth.
              Last edited by salmoned; November 6, 2008, 09:19 AM.
              May I always be found beneath your contempt.

              Comment


              • Re: Rail Transit

                Here’s a significant update: the Salt Lake route may be eliminated in favor of the airport. This is music to my ears! We need rail to go to the airport. On the other hand, we don’t need it to go through Salt Lake. I know candidate Lynn Vasquez-Dela Cerna fought really hard to stop Romy Cachola in the city council race, because he forced the council to adopt the Salt Lake route. Now, with Charles Djou’s newfound support of rail, Romy has become Mr. Irrelevant. Things are looking up!
                Honolulu rail might be rerouted to airport
                Vote could influence council to renege on route through Salt Lake

                By Sean Hao
                Advertiser Staff Writer


                Following Tuesday's victory for the rail referendum, the City Council might decide to switch the route of the proposed elevated commuter line to include a stop at Honolulu International Airport instead of going through Salt Lake.

                We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                USA TODAY, page 2A
                11 March 1993

                Comment


                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Yes, we NEED rail to the airport so taxpayers can subsidize incoming tourist transportation to Waikiki - NOT. I wonder if the airport will be receiving a portion of rail fares to offset the losses they will see from reduced parking, rental car, taxi and shuttle use? If not, I expect they'll have to increase fees elsewhere to make up for those lost revenues.
                  May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    I am very happy today.

                    On September 19, 2008

                    "Council member Romy Cachola continues to complain about potential noise and property value issues in his district. However, he is the council member who insisted the proposed route be shifted to his district and away from Pearl Harbor and Honolulu International Airport. The route can be shifted back, of course. THe Department of Defense and the airport would welcome an alternative to crowded parking lots and automobile gridlock."
                    http://billso.com/2008/04/17/back-on-track/

                    Once again, I remind you of his editorial in the StarBulletin on January 9, 2007.
                    Stating how 122 residents sent in their approvals via Senator Sakamoto's survey. He himself said 70,000 - 80,000 live in the area. In his own own words "If this is not a strong indication of the community's sentiments, then I don't know what is." http://starbulletin.com/2007/01/09/e...mmentary2.html

                    I KNOW WHAT IS!! 122 residents does NOT represent the COMMUNITY'S SENTIMENT!!!

                    * Repealing the "Salt Lake Spur" segment of the rail transit route which most residents oppose as a noisy, expensive and unnecessary detour through their neighborhood will become a REALITY!

                    Mahalo Council Member Djou.

                    Lynn Vasquez-Dela Cerna
                    P.S. You still can't change Aala Park to Hiram Fong Park.
                    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
                    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      What's the overiding benefit of an airport rail route? What do you envision- tourist going to and from the airport with all their luggage? And then what- walk 3-5 blocks to find their hotel? It's hard to imagine even a local using the rail to catch a plane. If one has to catch a bus to get to a rail station, how is that going to work? Seems to make more sense to have it go through the Salt Lake area where an estimaed 70,000 people live, and use it 5 days a week to and from work, unless you expect them to park all their cars at the airport.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        An airport route isn't just for tourists. Many people work at the airport and at the base next door. Having a line going to these places not only serves tourists, but workers, and even local travelers. A route that stops at the airport will enhance ridership at other stations as people at those places will consider riding in to the airport. Luggage? In this day and age of first checked bag fee and additional bag fees, it's not unusual to see light travelers. Also, as a mode of public transit, a train can carry more baggage than a bus could because it's wider.

                        Salt Lake has its merits but at this point, but the airport route makes more sense when looking at the entire system whole.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by Bobinator View Post
                          What's the overiding benefit of an airport rail route? What do you envision- tourist going to and from the airport with all their luggage? And then what- walk 3-5 blocks to find their hotel? It's hard to imagine even a local using the rail to catch a plane.
                          I visited Chicago for a week and stayed right next to Midway airport. Every day when I took the train into the city it was packed with travelers and their luggage.

                          When I go to the airport here in Honolulu, I have to take two busses, and the second one is usually filled with other people also on their way to the airport.

                          Even if the train drops them 3-5 blocks from their hotel, it's a lot cheaper cab ride than from the airport.
                          Four Thousand Miles (blog) | MacRatLove (comic)
                          Better Holes and Garbage (rats) | Perfectly Inadequate (music)

                          Comment


                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                            Well, I suppose if anti-rail groups mounted 'an intense campaign', then pro-rail groups, including the mayor, mounted an 'even more intense campaign'. Intensity is relative, spending more than 6X as much looks 6X as intense on TV, in flyers and other media. Even so, all that propaganda (pro-rail forces weren't offering facts and statistics on existing rail systems, only estimates piled onto uniquely favorable estimates of potentialities for our 'exceptional' rail situation) resulted in about 32% of the electorate voting 'Yes' on the measure. That doesn't add up to a majority of the electorate, although it was a majority of the votes cast/counted.

                            However, if pro-rail forces didn't 'give up' in prior decades of losing on this issue, why should anti-rail forces 'give up' now? This issue is too narrowly divided for either side to expect the other to 'give up' or 'step aside'. One 'Yes' vote by 32% of the electorate in 30 years does not a mandate make. Of course the 'winners' want to put the issue 'to bed', consider it a 'done deal' (as Mufi did last year without even suggesting a vote on the issue). I'm willing to entertain 'reasons' why anti-rail forces should 'give up', but don't start claiming 'a majority' unless and until you truly have one.

                            When someone's convicted of a crime, should they just 'give up' and accede to the punishment or should they continue to fight and appeal their case until all recourse is exhausted? Were anti-rail forces to yield now, it would only 'prove' their lack of conviction (just as the converse would have held true).

                            Building a rail system will make quite a few people/organizations quite wealthy. Not building rail will make no one wealthy, but it will prevent the poor from losing more of what little they have. The economic benefit/cost is tilted completely toward wealthy recipients and away from poor contributors, since the wealthy can afford to spend on a campaign to become more wealthy, but the poor cannot spend the little they have on anything but necessities. It's unfortunate when the wealthy use their wealth to subjugate and burden the poor with taxes today for false promises of potential benefit far in the future, but educated people must do what can be done to support equity and truth.

                            I truly agree with every point brought up here in salmoned's post, above ^.

                            I have another idea but, I've been told that we can't build double-decked TOLL lanes above our existing H-1 because the Federal funds can't be used.
                            Wouldn't that be a much better way to go? It's done elsewhere.
                            Only some land edging the present roadway would be needed. Not as much.
                            Only those who choose to use it pay for the priviledge. Instead of everyone.
                            Much more handy in sooo many ways. Express busses? Evacuations? Etc.?
                            IMO. We have to do something... I just don't think a fixed 'Steel on steel' rail line is the best answer.
                            Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

                            Comment


                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              hi this is sansei and in response to menehune man,i respect your thought's only im for rail and did vote yes and with what i shared from my sister and my cousin who both live in calif that they shared when i shared that h.o.v lane's and elevated highway's and toll bridge's wont work since it'll be more costly and for toll bridge's,

                              my sister drives through them and she say's it's much more expensive from what rail has and she share's that rail is inexpensive even for here and my cousin say's the same with their rail and he shared that rail would work here also.

                              well thank's for your time

                              Comment


                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't expect to be using rail at all and havn't been reading this thread, so my post my be old news, but:

                                Everybody want's a solution to the traffic problem, so it was easy to get a 'yes' vote win in the election, simply from the emotional aspect, no matter what the plans and costs are. Plus underhanded Mufi didn't lay it all out for us to know the fine print, keeping the reports away from us until after the election, another 'too' easy way to win at the ballot box.
                                Then after we voted, they pull this dirty fast one, by switching the route to the airport. If I was affected negatively and directly by this, I'd be even more outraged, and wouldn't blame those who are if they threw a huge fit at City Hall. It may be better to have it go thru the airport instead, but to pull this BS after people voted and have no more normal
                                input is pathetic. Then Mufi get's typically punkish (just after he's re-elected...) by saying Romy should go cry to his Mama, sloughing it all of on the Council. It's exactly this kind of crap by Mufi that I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last person on earth.
                                Last edited by Ron Whitfield; November 7, 2008, 08:05 AM.
                                https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

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