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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by mapen View Post
    I hate tolls too. You gotta pay to ride the rail, that's a toll. I don't think I understand your point. The elevated contra-flow road doesn't have to have a toll.

    I have listed 3 solutions but you seem to ignore them.

    1. Dedicated bus lanes, elevated in some areas, that will mimic the rail route. Much cheaper than rail, just as effective as rail.
    2. Elevated contra-flow lane.
    3. Tunnel/bridge under/over Pearl Harbor.

    Did I not mention these?
    Paying a toll still means you gotta pay your own gas and all the costs of running your car. Paying a rail/bus fare means you just gotta be willing to do a little exercise to get to the bus/rail stop and doing a transfer.

    Your 3 solutions and some thoughts to it.

    1) Possible but I think it needs to be elevated in all areas. Jeremy Harris tried a BRT but couldn't get real dedicated lanes from existing roadways without pissing off all the car drivers because it would mean fewer lanes for them. So if an entire elevated structure needs to be built, why have buses which requires hiring more drivers when you can put in automated trains?

    2) If the elevated contra-flow lane is not a toll, who foots the bill? Using the same GET tax increase? If so, why not build something that could discourage further car growth? Less car growth also means less pollution and less dependence on oil.

    3) Tunnel/bridge over/under Pearl Harbor. Military most likely will deny both due to security concerns. But let's say even if we got the approval, a bridge or tunnel is not cheap. In fact, tunneling is the most expensive of all options, which is why an elevated rail is being promoted instead of a subway.

    Comment


    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
      Paying a toll still means you gotta pay your own gas and all the costs of running your car. Paying a rail/bus fare means you just gotta be willing to do a little exercise to get to the bus/rail stop and doing a transfer.
      Yes, the "toll" of paying gas and maintaining a car gets me a form of transportation that is vastly superior, flexible, efficient and convenient to rail or bus. It takes me exactly where I want to go exactly when I want to go. It's beautiful. Mass transit does not compare.

      Yes, traffic is bad and is getting worse. But it beats mass transit hands down. Traffic is not hopeless yet, we can still make it better.

      Comment


      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        Please read section 6 of Bill 79 approved by the council. I'd still prefer rail but it won't be the mayor deciding this.

        The council reserves the right to select the technology of the fixed guideway system for the locally preferred alternative.
        Subject to sinage of the bill into law by the mayor or a possible veto. You can bet the mayor is putting the pressure on the 7 councilmembers to pick rail. The unions, construction industry and developers are behind that and the mayor.


        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        Mel, I grow tired of the constant overstatement of numbers.
        Well on this I guess you like to hear only your rosy posey side of the figures. Harsh reality will push the price up to $6 billion. Councilman Cachola alluded to increasing the taxes at a council meeting I was at last month.

        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        The transit project is meant for all the people of Oahu. If only 8.3% of the commuting public wants to use it, it's the other 91.7% own choice to not use it. I say these numbers with a caveat because I'm well aware those on the Windward side and those in East Honolulu will not get to use the rail for work commutes unless they work in West Oahu. The only reason why roads may have a greater odds of more usage is only because right now, the whole island is car centric. Why don't we even the odds some more then? When the rail is done, make gas at $5 a gallon. Let's see what those percentages will be then.
        Yeah, all the people have to pay but only a few will use it. The intent of rail is for West Oahu. Why do you think Councilmembers Marshall and Djou are against the rail? Won't benefit their consitutents at all. I am at a loss why Councilmember Kobayashi favors it since she is right here in town and most townies do not commute very far to work (as Helen points out in a previous post).


        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        I call the award winning The Bus grossly inadequate. Just because it got an award from the govt means jack. Look at The Bus thread. I posted the latest updates from The Bus for the new year. They will remove even more stops along several routes. Yeah, very helpful and convenient for those who would like to commute without a car.
        Quite possible that is due to decreased demand on ridership. People are probably migrating back to their cars.

        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        Funny, pro-car folks want to build a tollway. Why don't they all get into car pools first before talking about tollways? Just look at the sea of cars in the work commutes and tell me how many do you see are cars with just one occupant?
        It goes back to the "convenience" thing. Part of car culture is individuality and conveneince. Often times that means driving alone to and from destinations. Everyone has their own schedules and destinations.

        Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
        You're not forcing me to drive. Right, just like no one is forcing you to buy stuff after the new years.
        No one is forcing me to buy stuff, but the tax is being forced on me January 1. That is a given. Like everyone else here, there is food to buy, rent or mortgages to pay, healthcare, clothes and all of that other stuff one has to pay for while living in Hawaii... all subjected to the higher general excise tax after the new year. It is harder to avoid that than the bottle tax was in 2004.

        Surely I will be cutting back and not buying locally on some items to avoid the increased tax... or not buying at all. I already don't spend too much money on extravegant stuff like entertainment... rarely go to movies, don't do the big name concerts like U2 or even the little venues. None of that. All too expensive and all subjected to higher taxes come 2007.

        Happy New Year?


        General Excise Surcharge Will Hurt Hawaii's Economy
        I'm still here. Are you?

        Comment


        • Re: Rail Transit

          [QUOTE=mel;123979]A toll road would only be an option. If motorists don't want to pay the toll, they are welcome to use the roads we now have, toll free.

          Technically do we not already pay taxes for the upkeep of our roads, isnt it included in the taxes we pay, I don't see or hear people complaining about this ever. I only hear you complaining because they added the tax for the sole purpose of paying for the rail transit. I understand that Mel, we all do. However, if this tax increase included some money for education and other essential services would you have balked??

          The rail tax is not an option already. It has the force of law behind it and we all are forced to pay.

          The only tax problems I have really had have been in cities in which they have forced the taxpayers to pay for stadiums. I do not think this is fair, if I do not like sports then why do I have to pay for this stadium? We'll see what happens to our taxes when a new stadium is built for UH, which will happen I gather in the next 5-10 years probably out in Kapolei and hopefully then everybody will be using the rail transit to go back and forth.

          KalihiBoy

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
            1) Possible but I think it needs to be elevated in all areas. Jeremy Harris tried a BRT but couldn't get real dedicated lanes from existing roadways without pissing off all the car drivers because it would mean fewer lanes for them. So if an entire elevated structure needs to be built, why have buses which requires hiring more drivers when you can put in automated trains?
            Even if we build entirely elevated bus lanes, it will be cheaper than rail. Buses are vastly cheaper to operate than rail during off peak hours.
            2) If the elevated contra-flow lane is not a toll, who foots the bill? Using the same GET tax increase? If so, why not build something that could discourage further car growth? Less car growth also means less pollution and less dependence on oil.
            The money we raised from rail will more than pay for it, and no toll will be necessary. Cars will not always operate on oil. There will be electrical cars in the future to use the infrastructure we create today.
            3) Tunnel/bridge over/under Pearl Harbor. Military most likely will deny both due to security concerns. But let's say even if we got the approval, a bridge or tunnel is not cheap. In fact, tunneling is the most expensive of all options, which is why an elevated rail is being promoted instead of a subway.
            good points. The tunnel was studied in the past and the report said it would cost some billions. It's cheaper than rail, but the benefits of a tunnel are FAR more extensive. Rail will only serve the limited population along its corridor, but a tunnel's impact will be more far reaching for all commuters, bot in their own cars and on buses.
            Last edited by mapen; December 26, 2006, 05:20 PM.

            Comment


            • Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by mel View Post
              Subject to sinage of the bill into law by the mayor or a possible veto. You can bet the mayor is putting the pressure on the 7 councilmembers to pick rail. The unions, construction industry and developers are behind that and the mayor.

              Well on this I guess you like to hear only your rosy posey side of the figures. Harsh reality will push the price up to $6 billion. Councilman Cachola alluded to increasing the taxes at a council meeting I was at last month.

              Yeah, all the people have to pay but only a few will use it. The intent of rail is for West Oahu. Why do you think Councilmembers Marshall and Djou are against the rail? Won't benefit their consitutents at all. I am at a loss why Councilmember Kobayashi favors it since she is right here in town and most townies do not commute very far to work (as Helen points out in a previous post).

              Quite possible that is due to decreased demand on ridership. People are probably migrating back to their cars.

              It goes back to the "convenience" thing. Part of car culture is individuality and conveneince. Often times that means driving alone to and from destinations. Everyone has their own schedules and destinations.


              No one is forcing me to buy stuff, but the tax is being forced on me January 1. That is a given. Like everyone else here, there is food to buy, rent or mortgages to pay, healthcare, clothes and all of that other stuff one has to pay for while living in Hawaii... all subjected to the higher general excise tax after the new year. It is harder to avoid that than the bottle tax was in 2004.
              Subject to signage still means the mayor does not have the shot to call.

              No, it has nothing to do with me wanting to hear only rosey posey figures. What I don't appreciate is false advertisement. If you look at all my posts, I post the on budget price tag and the overrun price tag. At least I'm fair about it, I can't say that about your posts.

              If Cachola is alluding to more taxes, this is where we need to get together to tell the city they need to figure out the finances the right way. This is where I say less sabotage and more vigilance. But I guess it falls on deaf ears.

              West Oahu is being addressed because that's where the worst congestion occurs. Afterall, you do need a backbone system in order to build spur lines to Windward side via Likelike or to East Honolulu via UHM or the Waikiki spur. The H1, H2, H3 did not spring up overnight. You could say the H1 doesn't do jack for Central Oahu or the Windward side either.

              Marshall and Djou are myopic in their views as opposed to Kobayashi. She's looking at the project in terms of the entire island's future, not just one district. Which is what Marshall and Djou should be doing.

              Nice spin but the truth is The Bus unions demanded a raise so the fares were raised to fund the raises but little to the actual maintenance of the buses or routes. So given a raise in fares and then a contraction in service is why ridership decreased, not the other way around. Another reason why I rather see rail than more buses. You don't need to hire more drivers to operate trains and so less of the operating fund is spent on manpower.

              So when you reason about car usage, it's about convenience and it's justified. But when PT users want a more convenient transit such as rail, you tell them why don't they fill up the buses first even though it currently lacks convenience? Nice double standards my friend.

              So you say the tax is forced on you because you have to spend on items that are necessities yet you think me driving a car is only an option when you know one has to reliably get to work on time to not get fired? I'm forced to drive a car because of a lack of reliable PT for me to get to work on time.

              Comment


              • Re: Rail Transit

                i thought of something, but i didnt read the prior posts or excuse me if its just plain dumb. what if the last car was rented out to a company - it could be rented out to starbucks or whatever. people may want to ride the rails if they could get coffee or drinks to pass the time. the rent money obtained + 8% would subsidize the cost of rail. if people will pay over $5k for a kiosk in ala moana, maybe they will pay the same for the caboose.
                attaching tv's throughout the train playing approved content might be cool too.
                i hope they plan to discount the rail passes for students. ive noticed that when school is not in session my daily commute to tripler and back is a heck of a whole lot lighter. (duh)
                Aquaponics in Paradise !

                Comment


                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by mapen View Post
                  Yes, the "toll" of paying gas and maintaining a car gets me a form of transportation that is vastly superior, flexible, efficient and convenient to rail or bus. It takes me exactly where I want to go exactly when I want to go. It's beautiful. Mass transit does not compare.

                  Yes, traffic is bad and is getting worse. But it beats mass transit hands down. Traffic is not hopeless yet, we can still make it better.
                  Private transport will always beat out public transport. But if you look at the true cost of car commuting, that cost is A LOT more than public transport. So if this rail/bus combo can add more convenience to a very reasonable level, you think it's not worth it? Let's say with a rail, the bus can now get to within a block of where you live and with reliable and great frequency too. Still not gonna ride it?

                  I'm not gonna debate efficiency. It means different things when you use different criteria to analyze efficiency.


                  Originally posted by mapen View Post
                  Even if we build entirely elevated bus lanes, it will be cheaper than rail. Buses are vastly cheaper to operate than rail during off peak hours.
                  In terms of operational cost, I doubt buses are cheaper compared to rail. A bus requires a driver. A train does not. A bus carries X passengers. A train many times X. A bus needs more frequent maintenance as it needs new tires, uses fuel, needs oil changed, coolant, freon, transmission fluid, etc. Lots of odds and ends. A rail is electric (if an electric rail is chosen of course). Everything from the motors to the AC to the doors are electric powered. Not as many different types of fluids to deal with. Actually probably none maybe the exception of the emergency brakes. That alone reduces maintenance costs. If we somehow can attach a green power source (solar, wind, wave) to the rail, it's has zero pollution impact too.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by mel View Post
                    And once again you take off your pants and slosh your wet stained panties into the fray when you have nothing else to say.
                    You crack me up, Mel. I'm as calm as can be. The panties I refer to are yours, and if they're wet... well, that's your problem, not mine.

                    Originally posted by mel View Post
                    I was born and raised here as you well know, and I don't want to move.
                    Well, then you're gonna have to accept the fact that the majority of residents and their elected officials decided to act this way. Of course, you could also try to sabotage the process, which is what you probably want to do.

                    Originally posted by mel View Post
                    If you build more roads, more people will use those.
                    Reality shows that the majority of residents don't want to cover Oahu in pavement. If you want more roads, move to the mainland.

                    Originally posted by mel View Post
                    As an opponent to the rail tax I am thinking of ways to cut back on local consumption and perhaps purchase some goods and services from off island.
                    Once again, Mel... MOVE TO THE MAINLAND. Then you don't have to consume anything locally. YOU WIN!!!

                    Originally posted by mel View Post
                    I already don't spend too much money on extravegant stuff like entertainment... rarely go to movies, don't do the big name concerts like U2 or even the little venues. None of that.
                    Sounds like a fun existence. Hope it works out for you.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by Hellbent View Post
                      i thought of something, but i didnt read the prior posts or excuse me if its just plain dumb. what if the last car was rented out to a company - it could be rented out to starbucks or whatever. people may want to ride the rails if they could get coffee or drinks to pass the time. the rent money obtained + 8% would subsidize the cost of rail. if people will pay over $5k for a kiosk in ala moana, maybe they will pay the same for the caboose.
                      attaching tv's throughout the train playing approved content might be cool too.
                      i hope they plan to discount the rail passes for students. ive noticed that when school is not in session my daily commute to tripler and back is a heck of a whole lot lighter. (duh)
                      A beverage car like a dinner car on traditional trains is a cool concept but I see some hurdles that won't be easy to overcome. One is having to stock the that caboose with tanks for the water needed to make coffee/drinks. The other is the issue of having open food and drink in the train. Right now with The Bus, groceries are fine but open food and drinks are prohibited because of the mess people make. Not unless the interior of the trains are all metal like a prison set up so the cleaning crew can just hose it down at night. But I totally am fired up about thinking of creative ways to pay for rail. Having the Starbucks at the stations could work. People having their drinks before the commute or right after the commute and on the way into work.

                      The tv's have a lot of merit. Since there is no sanctioned public advertising on Oahu, the city has a monopoly on this. What they should allow is advertising on the rail and buses. Flat panel tv's are not hard to install. They should charge for commercials on the tv's, throw in some news, and you have a captive audience during the ride. Of course, everything has to be CC'ed to eliminate noise. I've seen this in rides on Hong Kong buses and also on LA MTA buses. But that's a good way to bring in some additional revenue.

                      I'm sure there will be a concessionary fare for seniors, students, and young children. We have it for The Bus, don't see why a rail should be different.

                      Oh yeah, I read that a light rail in Germany is very creative in earning additional revenue. Apparently, the route runs by a VW factory and a port. And I guess they don't have laws like here in the US that prohibits freight and passenger trains from using the same rail line during the same hours. So the city has a special light rail train that hauls cars from the factory to the port to earn additional revenue. Doesn't apply here but that's really thinking out of the box.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        [QUOTE=mapen;123989 It's cheaper than rail, but the benefits of a tunnel are FAR more extensive. Rail will only serve the limited population along its corridor, but a tunnel's impact will be more far reaching for all commuters, bot in their own cars and on buses.[/QUOTE]

                        Excuse me, "rail will only serve the "LIMITED" population along its corridor"!! So your telling me the population between Kapolei and Manoa is a limited population, is that not the majority of where the people live and work on this island??? What do you expect the rail to go from Haleiwa to the BYU-Hawaii campus or something??

                        Your forgetting that traffic jams occur within, in and around tunnels, not to mention the on and off-ramps. Yet you balk at a rail transit that NEVER will have a traffic jam of any sort?? Again I cannot wait to wave at all of the cars below me stuck in gridlock while I whiz by going from my Destination A to Destination B. Have fun Mel and Mapen!!

                        KalihiBoy

                        Comment


                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by Palolo Joe View Post
                          You crack me up, Mel. I'm as calm as can be. The panties I refer to are yours, and if they're wet... well, that's your problem, not mine.

                          YOU ARE THE ONE WITH THE PANTY FETISH AS YOU ALWAYS MENTION THOSE EVERYTIME YOU DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE!
                          I'm still here. Are you?

                          Comment


                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Come on guys "wet panties" and "panty fetish", do we need to set up a adult themed section of Hawaii Threads or what!!??

                            KalihiBoy

                            Comment


                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              A beverage car like a dinner car on traditional trains is a cool concept but I see some hurdles that won't be easy to overcome. One is having to stock the that caboose with tanks for the water needed to make coffee/drinks. The other is the issue of having open food and drink in the train. Right now with The Bus, groceries are fine but open food and drinks are prohibited because of the mess people make. Not unless the interior of the trains are all metal like a prison set up so the cleaning crew can just hose it down at night. But I totally am fired up about thinking of creative ways to pay for rail. Having the Starbucks at the stations could work. People having their drinks before the commute or right after the commute and on the way into work.

                              The tv's have a lot of merit. Since there is no sanctioned public advertising on Oahu, the city has a monopoly on this. What they should allow is advertising on the rail and buses. Flat panel tv's are not hard to install. They should charge for commercials on the tv's, throw in some news, and you have a captive audience during the ride. Of course, everything has to be CC'ed to eliminate noise. I've seen this in rides on Hong Kong buses and also on LA MTA buses. But that's a good way to bring in some additional revenue.

                              I'm sure there will be a concessionary fare for seniors, students, and young children. We have it for The Bus, don't see why a rail should be different.

                              Oh yeah, I read that a light rail in Germany is very creative in earning additional revenue. Apparently, the route runs by a VW factory and a port. And I guess they don't have laws like here in the US that prohibits freight and passenger trains from using the same rail line during the same hours. So the city has a special light rail train that hauls cars from the factory to the port to earn additional revenue. Doesn't apply here but that's really thinking out of the box.
                              I wonder how they will police the rails? As that other thread with someone getting their teeth knocked out for an ipod, I wonder if there will be some sort of security?
                              What if they can only drink in the caboose?
                              I guess having beer and wine is out then right? =p
                              Aquaponics in Paradise !

                              Comment


                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by Hellbent View Post
                                I wonder how they will police the rails? As that other thread with someone getting their teeth knocked out for an ipod, I wonder if there will be some sort of security?
                                What if they can only drink in the caboose?
                                I guess having beer and wine is out then right? =p
                                Good question, most transit agencies establish a transit police. But I think that's a waste of money. Wonder if a deal can be struck with HPD? X amount of funding goes to HPD annually. In return, HPD will have the funds to train and hire Y number of new cops. Then the Y number will be assigned to patrol the stations and trains. They hop on and off as they please, checking passenger fare tickets along the way. I'm assuming it's gonna be an honor fare system because that will eliminate the need and cost to add fare ticket gates. But by having HPD patrol, they have all the powers of the police so there won't be any confusion on jurisdiction as sometimes transit police encounter. And because they are HPD, they can also serve the city like any other HPD officier. Just my $.02.

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