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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by Vanguard View Post
    In theory, I believe a rail system in HI would be a very good thing. In theory. However, I am very concerned about the details, especially the impact on the environment and scenery.
    Well, when it comes to the issue of impact on the environment/scenery, the anti-rail proponents who want to build more highways do not have any moral high ground to stand on. An expanded double-decked freeway is just as bad an eyesore as an elevated rail. And maybe even worse, when you account for all the added exhaust fumes.

    And let's not forget the ugly scars that H3 left on the Ko'olau Mountains. Or those ugly massive walls on the sides of Kahekili Hwy.
    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      I don't doubt it, FM, I just hope that if they do this, that it very well executed, minimizing cost and impact to the environment, and maximizing ridership and routes to where they're needed most.

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      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by mapen View Post
        I live in town. I live within walking distance to work. I live within walking distance of Ala Moana and much shopping. And yet, I still own a car because there's more to life than commuting to and from work and shopping.
        I'm not saying anyone needs to give up their cars. There certainly is more to life than commuting. But an option to driving needs to be available since there seems to be no end to how many people we're going to cram into this community.

        As for myself, my wife and I figure out what we're driving each morning depending on who has to go farther or who has to haul the biggest load.

        Whenever possible we drive a Honda hybrid. But if I have to move a lot of equipment for work, or tow the boat, the Explorer is used. It's about energy efficiency and keeping our costs down. I even replaced the old 2-stroke outboard on my boat for a much more fuel efficient 4-stroke that burns 1/3 the amount of gas compared to the old engine of the same size, doesn't need that foul 2-stroke oil mixture, and is much more reliable.

        As for commuting, my wife has no problems with taking mass transit. And I work from home. When I worked in town, we carpooled as much as possible. We did this with one of our nieces and another fellow worker until our schedules went out of sync.

        We live on a very small patch of land. Think about it. I've seen this place from the air and from out at sea. We can't keep adding highways and there's a limit to the space we devote to cars. If you had to choose between pastures and pavement, what would you do?

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        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by Random View Post
          The only other solution is to go up, but then having another level of freeway is going to ruin the scenic view.
          The elevated hunk of concrete that will be rail will also ruin scenic views. Since both solutions will ruin scenic views, we should maximize the return on sacrifice by building the more useful and versatile highway instead of the less versatile and enormously expensive rail.

          The bus is a fine mass transit system and can work as good as rail if we give it dedicated guideways to bypass traffic in key areas.
          Originally posted by random
          Originally posted by mapen
          Instead of rail, dedicated bus lanes (the rubber on cement solution instead of the steel on rail solution) would be so much cheaper to build and operate while being just as effective as rail, since such a solution would allow buses to bypass traffic jams.
          That would mean sacrificing one or two lanes.
          No it won't. In the same way they would build an elevated guideway for the rail, they could do the same for dedicated bus lanes in key areas that would bypass traffic jams. It would be just as effective as rail for a mere fraction of the price.

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          • Re: Rail Transit

            hi this is sansei and in response to mapen, when i once spoke with my sister who live's in Caifornia,i asked her how elevated and Toll highway's if it's good and she say's no that the price for Either building an elevated Highway or putting toll highway's wouldnt work here is the on the toll highway,the price would be high and that i remember seeing on the news that i believe in Minnesota that the elevated Highway crumbled and fell so I disagree with this.

            well thank's for your time

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            • Re: Rail Transit

              The San Francisco waterfront was obscured by an elevated highway for years. Good riddance, I say, to that highway when it was taken down after the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. Now, walking around the waterfront without that looming darkness overhead is so refreshing.

              Honolulu's shoreline should never be dominated by those monstrosities. But that's juss me (a Californian) talking . . . thanks for listening.
              Born in Hawaii, too - Truss me

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              • Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by Palama Kid View Post
                The San Francisco waterfront was obscured by an elevated highway for years. Good riddance, I say, to that highway when it was taken down after the 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake. Now, walking around the waterfront without that looming darkness overhead is so refreshing.

                Honolulu's shoreline should never be dominated by those monstrosities. But that's juss me (a Californian) talking . . . thanks for listening.
                If the route is closer to the shoreline, then it shouldn't be elevated.
                Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by sansei View Post
                  hi this is sansei and in response to mapen, when i once spoke with my sister who live's in Caifornia,i asked her how elevated and Toll highway's if it's good and she say's no that the price for Either building an elevated Highway or putting toll highway's wouldnt work here
                  I agree, toll highways are wrong. I think we all pay plenty enough taxes that our highways should be free. With the money we are raising for rail, we can use that money to build a toll-free elevated highway above Nimitz highway. It will be so much cheaper than rail that tolls will not be necessary.

                  That part of Nimitz that would be elevated would not obstruct views from the ocean. Actually, it will give a better view of our beautiful island for those who are travelling on the top level. This route is heavily traveled by tourists going to and from the airport and Waikiki, and the current view one gets of the Kalihi industrial area is not pretty.

                  Rail is a toll system, why don't people vilify it for that?

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                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by mapen View Post
                    Rail is a toll system, why don't people vilify it for that?
                    Oh please! Just a couple posts ago, you were saying "the bus is a fine mass transit system" and you even supported dedicated bus lanes? Well, don't you have to pay bus fare or purchase a bus pass to ride The Bus?

                    And don't even get me started me started on how much it costs to own, operate, and maintain a vehicle for everyday use in comparison to rail fare. If you think that most people come out ahead financially by driving a car from Ewa to town vs. using mass transportation, you've just flushed whatever remaining credibility you had straight down the toilet.

                    I'm all for having a constructive and thoughtful discussion on the pros and cons of rail. But no matter what side of the issue we happen to be on, let's keep it real.
                    This post may contain an opinion that may conflict with your opinion. Do not take it personal. Polite discussion of difference of opinion is welcome.

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by Frankie's Market View Post
                      Oh please! Just a couple posts ago, you were saying "the bus is a fine mass transit system" and you even supported dedicated bus lanes? Well, don't you have to pay bus fare or purchase a bus pass to ride The Bus?
                      Yes. But you misunderstand me.

                      By building rail, we are sacrificing future expansion of TOLL-FREE roads to expand the TOLL mass transit system. What I'm saying is real (I'm keeping it real , and I don't like it. I'm saying that we should expand our existing TOLL transit system (TheBus) as well as expand our existing TOLL-FREE highway system. We shouldn't be sacrificing one for the other, as rail does. My solution is a balanced solution, not a one or the other solution like rail is.

                      And don't even get me started me started on how much it costs to own, operate, and maintain a vehicle for everyday use in comparison to rail fare.
                      Yes, owning an auto is expensive, but as I and 90+% of auto-owning Hawaii population will tell you, the return on the money you pay for owning an auto is way better and worthwhile than money spent to ride mass transit.

                      I guess my support to expand highways and TheBus is not simple-minded enough to easily understand
                      Last edited by mapen; March 1, 2008, 11:40 AM. Reason: Edited for grammar.

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                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Originally posted by mapen View Post
                        Rail is a toll system, why don't people vilify it for that?
                        Isn't rail going to part of TheBus system route in which we also pay toll, according to your logic?

                        Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have it as free as sending our children to tuition-free public schools.
                        Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                        Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Sorry, I should have made my comment more clear. I was responding to someone who appears to be a rail supporter, who said that if we put tolls on highways, that it's not worth it because tolls are a bad thing, so we should support rail. So my response to that is if tolls on highways are so bad, then why would you support rail with tolls over the expansion of highways (with or without tolls)?

                          I'm not saying that I support tolls in any way, just that a highway with a toll is better than a rail with a toll, but I think we should have highways without tolls.

                          Likewise, TheBus (with its tolls) is much smarter than TheRail with tolls, because it is better bang for the buck.

                          Everything is relative Sorry for the confusion.

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                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            How about this logic:

                            Money spent for a bus or rail rider:
                            1. Pay a fare for the ride


                            Money spent for a car driver on a non-toll road way:
                            1. Fuel
                            2. License fees for driver(s)
                            3. Registration fees for car(s)
                            4. Insurance for the car
                            5. Parking fees

                            The first three the local government gets a cut of the action, don't know about the insurance. Parking in some cases maybe the governments gets some money out of it. Granted you don't pay money every time you take a trip which you would have to each time you travel on a toll road.

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                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              The difference between a highway with a toll and rail with a "toll" is that the highway still requires you to pay for your car, the gas, the insurance, and then the actual toll to drive on that highway. A rail's fare or the tax used to pay for its construction is a "toll", since some want to argue as such, but you drop the car bit. Even toll-free roads have a "toll". Look at the stickers at the gas pump when you gas up next time, probably close to half the cost of gas is tax which is used to fund the toll-free roads.

                              I like my car but getting some exercise is good for all of us, might even reduce our health insurance costs.

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                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by mapen View Post
                                In the same way they would build an elevated guideway for the rail, they could do the same for dedicated bus lanes in key areas that would bypass traffic jams. It would be just as effective as rail for a mere fraction of the price.
                                The "zipper lane" was supposed to bypass traffic jams. Yet often it runs slower than the rest of the freeway. It's subject to a bunch of amateur drivers who are incapable of using this resource cooperatively. That's what causes traffic jams. That sort of behavior always happens on all road systems used by the general public.

                                Accidents are inevitable. Just a few people have to drive too slowly or do something as simple as follow too closely and step on their brakes unnecessarily. It causes a "traffic pulse" and before you know it cars come to a complete stop somewhere along the way for no apparent reason. You see this happen almost everyday.

                                A rail transit system is under positive control all the time. It greatly reduces the possibility that a mindless few will hold up thousands of people intent on getting somewhere within a reasonable period of time. And that's the definition of "mass transit".

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