Rail Transit

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

TuNnl, I find your rebuttal as short sighted as your initial comments. Let's compare the 'first phase' of the west Oahu campus to the 'first phase' of the rail transit system, instead of apples to oranges, eh? Now, which is manini?

Let's compare the traffic effect of the west Oahu campus to the traffic effect of the rail transit system - the first moves some jobs and students away from congested traffic routes; the other depends on MORE people using the currently congested traffic routes in order to justify it's construction. Let's see, there's no time savings, there's no cost savings - why exactly do we need a rail system, again? So 'someone' can supposedly drive their car to work faster because the 'other guy' is gonna take the train? Why shouldn't rail supporters be required to get signatures of people who intend to use this system on a daily basis, so we can see if there is any demand for it?

My 'instead of' suggestion has more relevance than you admit or imagine. Rail is a distracting, expensive boondoggle; money and effort spent on it detracts from any important issues we could be addressing. Your arguments work only as long as you retain a narrow, linear focus on the pro-rail agenda.

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

Oops, duplicate post.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

Why can’t we do ethanol now? Ethanol was sold to Hawai‘i by Governor Lingle with the understanding that the two surviving sugar plantations would become the impetus of a local ethanol industry.

Good question. There are thousands of acres along the Hamakua coastline and elsewhere in the islands that could be put back into production.

According to state data, (http://hawaii.gov/dbedt/info/economic/databook/db2006/) Hawaii used more than 472.6 million gallons of gas in 2006. Perhaps ethanol can put a dent in our dependency on fuel shipped here.

Honolulu was responsible for 291.4 millon gallons of that consumption. At $4.20 a gallon at today's prices, that would be $1.2 billon we spend on gas annually. And rail transit is expected to cost how much? In realistic terms, as a society we spend far more just on gas in 10 years than we would spend building the entire rail system.

Certainly $6 billion is a lot of money, but compared to what?

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

Good question. There are thousands of acres along the Hamakua coastline and elsewhere in the islands that could be put back into production.

Given Hawaii's high cost of labor and requiring every raw material to be shipped in (fertilizer, fuel, etc), cost to produce ethanol won't be competitive. If Hawaii wants to produce ethanol, I would say the best chance is via algae.

How about this? Why can't we tap more into geothermal on the Big Island? Use that power to split ocean water (which we have unlimited access) into hydrogen and oxygen. We can be the Saudi Arabia of hydrogen fuel.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

How about this? Why can't we tap more into geothermal on the Big Island? Use that power to split ocean water (which we have unlimited access) into hydrogen and oxygen. We can be the Saudi Arabia of hydrogen fuel.

The answer will be a combination of things. Geothermal, wind, solar. Personally I like the idea of solar electric. It's distributed generation that helps reduce the need for transmission lines.

Every little bit helps.

And HECO is looking to get an OTEC system here on Oahu. That power can be used by an efficient mass-transit system and further reduce this island's dependency upon fuel shipped into this state. Sure beats having a huge fleet of buses stuck in traffic.

[sinjin]

Re: Rail Transit

How about this? Why can't we tap more into geothermal on the Big Island?

http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cfm?cont...folder_id=3308

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

http://www.tpl.org/tier3_cd.cfm?cont...folder_id=3308

Maybe developers of geothermal power need to start by meeting with cultural experts and local groups -- I understand that it's possible to get something from the aina, but you have to ask first, and offer something in return. Just like with human beings in any other society.

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

Based on 2005/6 Hawaiian sugar cane acreage of 21,700 and an average of 80 tons/acre cane production (in Hawaii) and 20 gal/ton of ethanol production (est.), we could expect to produce 35 million gal/year of ethanol [assuming all that cane went to ethanol production]. Current gross income from sugar production, based on $0.20/lb for raw sugar (U.S. price) is about $100 million. So it seems, on a price basis alone (that is, not considering self-sufficiency or sustainability aspects) cane ethanol is now viable [at $4.00/gal gas]. Of course, we can't predict future price swings, but if we were willing to accept a State minimum guaranteed price for local ethanol production (somewhere around $3.00/gal), throw in some tax breaks for ethanol facility construction, we could likely move along the road to local, sustainable energy production.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

Based on 2005/6 Hawaiian sugar cane acreage of 21,700 and an average of 80 tons/acre cane production (in Hawaii) and 20 gal/ton of ethanol production (est.), we could expect to produce 35 million gal/year of ethanol [assuming all that cane went to ethanol production].

Yep, lots of land went out of cane production between the 1960s and now.

[sinjin]

Re: Rail Transit

Maybe developers of geothermal power need to start by meeting with cultural experts and local groups -- I understand that it's possible to get something from the aina, but you have to ask first, and offer something in return. Just like with human beings in any other society.

Unfortunately there is little chance of compromise when dealing with superstitous folk. One could pretend to respect their beliefs but all that's just patronizing lip service. I would no more take someone seriously that believes a goddess lives in the volcano than I would someone claiming to have been abducted by aliens. To say or do otherwise would be condescending.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

Unfortunately there is little chance of compromise when dealing with superstitous folk. One could pretend to respect their beliefs but all that's just patronizing lip service. I would no more take someone seriously that believes a goddess lives in the volcano than I would someone claiming to have been abducted by aliens. To say or do otherwise would be condescending.

I'm an agnostic, leaning toward atheism. And hardly superstitious.

However, I wouldn't mess with stuff on the Big Island. I'm very respectful of cultural issues there.

Also, belief in deities other than a Christian God isn't superstition. To Hawaiians, the land and sea are alive. It's as valid a belief as the one that assumes a single entity created everything in six days. In fact, it's a concept that's probably more correct than the western concept of an inanimate Earth. To call Hawaiians' knowledge of the land and sea superstitious is condescending, especially when they were able to maintain a strong and healthy population for thousands of years without wrecking the environment.

Also, native Hawaiian scholars who truly know their stuff aren't usually the vocal ones marching around with picket signs. Working with people like them would be appropriate.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Rail Transit

To say or do otherwise would be condescending.

Check with salmoned regarding that word (see other thread, starting here. )

[sinjin]

Re: Rail Transit

Also, belief in deities other than a Christian God isn't superstition.

Even if I say they both are?

To Hawaiians, the land and sea are alive.

Have life on and in, not "alive" except as metaphor.

It's as valid a belief as the one that assumes a single entity created everything in six days.

All myths are "valid".

In fact, it's a concept that's probably more correct than the western concept of an inanimate Earth.

Why? Cosmic Consciousness?

To call Hawaiians' knowledge of the land and sea superstitious is condescending, especially when they were able to maintain a strong and healthy population for thousands of years without wrecking the environment.

I didn't call their knowledge superstition, only their religion. Many were killed as a direct consequence of their rituals and prohibitions. Should I view this as quaint?

[TuNnL]

Re: Rail Transit

Of course, we can't predict future price swings, but if we were willing to accept a State minimum guaranteed price for local ethanol production (somewhere around $3.00/gal), throw in some tax breaks for ethanol facility construction, we could likely move along the road to local, sustainable energy production.

I hope Gov. Lingle agrees with you and retroactively extends those tax breaks to Gay & Robinson, who has already begun construction on such a facility.

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

Unfortunately there is little chance of compromise when dealing with superstitous folk. One could pretend to respect their beliefs but all that's just patronizing lip service. I would no more take someone seriously that believes a goddess lives in the volcano than I would someone claiming to have been abducted by aliens. To say or do otherwise would be condescending.

It seems hard to find anyone NOT superstitious, and yet compromises are are agreed to most everywhere, every day, in my experience. It is necessary to respect and protect yourself against the 'nonsense' of others, else they may reasonably reciprocate and not respect your 'nonsense' (you may replace the word 'nonsense' with 'beliefs', 'ignorance', 'evil' or 'rights', as it all amounts to the same idea). I can't imagine it's the person you won't take seriously, so I must guess you mean you won't take their belief [in a Goddess living in the volcano or being abducted by aliens] seriously. I suggest you take these persons very seriously - it's hard to imagine WHAT they might do.