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Thread: Rail Transit

  1. #901

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Rail is what most people want. Despite an intense anti-rail campaign, and a last-minute revelation the cost would be higher than initially projected, the majority of voters expressed a desire to get a rail system installed and operating here in Honolulu.

    Lots of people didn't agree, but the majority did.

    The election is over. Groundbreaking is next year.

  2. #902

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    If rail supporters REALLY wanted to support a solution....
    Funny how you know what's "best" for rail supporters. When are you sending us to "education camps"?

  3. #903
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Joshuatree, funny how you thought I had commented on or cared about what's best for rail supporters - never have, never will. I only commented on what's best for relieving Oahu's traffic congestion.

    Composite 2992, pro-rail groups outspent anti-rail groups by more than 6 (not including taxpayer-funded pro-rail spending) to 1. YOU may define that as an intense anti-rail campaign, however, I would define that as an intense pro-rail campaign. To surmise that the results prove 'rail is what most people want' is a specious observation. Let the electorate be fully informed and vote on a slate of the best alternatives, then we will see what most of the electorate wants regarding traffic relief. 'Yes or no' on rail does not inform us as to what people want regarding traffic relief, since no alternative was provided. It only informs us that rail is currently preferred over doing nothing.
    Last edited by salmoned; November 5th, 2008 at 04:37 PM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  4. #904

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Transportation options have been studied for three decades. Since the 1970s. Lots of discussion in recent months from both sides.

    Panos entered the mayoral race just to oppose rail. Kobayashi picked up the torch and adopted Panos' views just to oppose rail.

    There were press releases sent out to inform the media about anti-rail lawsuits and other legal maneuvers

    To say that anti-rail didn't rally an intense campaign to stop the rail is pure BS.

    It was put up to a vote and the majority chose rail. It's what the majority wants.

    Pau.

  5. #905

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    TIt was put up to a vote and the majority chose rail. It's what the majority wants.

    Pau.
    Agreed, some people can't lose gracefully, nothing more to comment in that arena.

  6. #906
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    Transportation options have been studied for three decades. Since the 1970s. Lots of discussion in recent months from both sides.

    Panos entered the mayoral race just to oppose rail. Kobayashi picked up the torch and adopted Panos' views just to oppose rail.

    There were press releases sent out to inform the media about anti-rail lawsuits and other legal maneuvers

    To say that anti-rail didn't rally an intense campaign to stop the rail is pure BS.

    It was put up to a vote and the majority chose rail. It's what the majority wants.

    Pau.
    Well, I suppose if anti-rail groups mounted 'an intense campaign', then pro-rail groups, including the mayor, mounted an 'even more intense campaign'. Intensity is relative, spending more than 6X as much looks 6X as intense on TV, in flyers and other media. Even so, all that propaganda (pro-rail forces weren't offering facts and statistics on existing rail systems, only estimates piled onto uniquely favorable estimates of potentialities for our 'exceptional' rail situation) resulted in about 32% of the electorate voting 'Yes' on the measure. That doesn't add up to a majority of the electorate, although it was a majority of the votes cast/counted.

    However, if pro-rail forces didn't 'give up' in prior decades of losing on this issue, why should anti-rail forces 'give up' now? This issue is too narrowly divided for either side to expect the other to 'give up' or 'step aside'. One 'Yes' vote by 32% of the electorate in 30 years does not a mandate make. Of course the 'winners' want to put the issue 'to bed', consider it a 'done deal' (as Mufi did last year without even suggesting a vote on the issue). I'm willing to entertain 'reasons' why anti-rail forces should 'give up', but don't start claiming 'a majority' unless and until you truly have one.

    When someone's convicted of a crime, should they just 'give up' and accede to the punishment or should they continue to fight and appeal their case until all recourse is exhausted? Were anti-rail forces to yield now, it would only 'prove' their lack of conviction (just as the converse would have held true).

    Building a rail system will make quite a few people/organizations quite wealthy. Not building rail will make no one wealthy, but it will prevent the poor from losing more of what little they have. The economic benefit/cost is tilted completely toward wealthy recipients and away from poor contributors, since the wealthy can afford to spend on a campaign to become more wealthy, but the poor cannot spend the little they have on anything but necessities. It's unfortunate when the wealthy use their wealth to subjugate and burden the poor with taxes today for false promises of potential benefit far in the future, but educated people must do what can be done to support equity and truth.
    Last edited by salmoned; November 6th, 2008 at 10:19 AM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  7. #907
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    Lightbulb Re: Rail Transit

    Here’s a significant update: the Salt Lake route may be eliminated in favor of the airport. This is music to my ears! We need rail to go to the airport. On the other hand, we don’t need it to go through Salt Lake. I know candidate Lynn Vasquez-Dela Cerna fought really hard to stop Romy Cachola in the city council race, because he forced the council to adopt the Salt Lake route. Now, with Charles Djou’s newfound support of rail, Romy has become Mr. Irrelevant. Things are looking up!
    Honolulu rail might be rerouted to airport
    Vote could influence council to renege on route through Salt Lake

    By Sean Hao
    Advertiser Staff Writer


    Following Tuesday's victory for the rail referendum, the City Council might decide to switch the route of the proposed elevated commuter line to include a stop at Honolulu International Airport instead of going through Salt Lake.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  8. #908
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Yes, we NEED rail to the airport so taxpayers can subsidize incoming tourist transportation to Waikiki - NOT. I wonder if the airport will be receiving a portion of rail fares to offset the losses they will see from reduced parking, rental car, taxi and shuttle use? If not, I expect they'll have to increase fees elsewhere to make up for those lost revenues.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

  9. #909
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    I am very happy today.

    On September 19, 2008

    "Council member Romy Cachola continues to complain about potential noise and property value issues in his district. However, he is the council member who insisted the proposed route be shifted to his district and away from Pearl Harbor and Honolulu International Airport. The route can be shifted back, of course. THe Department of Defense and the airport would welcome an alternative to crowded parking lots and automobile gridlock."
    http://billso.com/2008/04/17/back-on-track/

    Once again, I remind you of his editorial in the StarBulletin on January 9, 2007.
    Stating how 122 residents sent in their approvals via Senator Sakamoto's survey. He himself said 70,000 - 80,000 live in the area. In his own own words "If this is not a strong indication of the community's sentiments, then I don't know what is." http://starbulletin.com/2007/01/09/e...mmentary2.html

    I KNOW WHAT IS!! 122 residents does NOT represent the COMMUNITY'S SENTIMENT!!!

    * Repealing the "Salt Lake Spur" segment of the rail transit route which most residents oppose as a noisy, expensive and unnecessary detour through their neighborhood will become a REALITY!

    Mahalo Council Member Djou.

    Lynn Vasquez-Dela Cerna
    P.S. You still can't change Aala Park to Hiram Fong Park.
    Be AKAMAI ~ KOKUA Hawai`i!
    Philippians 4:13 --- I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

  10. #910

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    What's the overiding benefit of an airport rail route? What do you envision- tourist going to and from the airport with all their luggage? And then what- walk 3-5 blocks to find their hotel? It's hard to imagine even a local using the rail to catch a plane. If one has to catch a bus to get to a rail station, how is that going to work? Seems to make more sense to have it go through the Salt Lake area where an estimaed 70,000 people live, and use it 5 days a week to and from work, unless you expect them to park all their cars at the airport.

  11. #911

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    An airport route isn't just for tourists. Many people work at the airport and at the base next door. Having a line going to these places not only serves tourists, but workers, and even local travelers. A route that stops at the airport will enhance ridership at other stations as people at those places will consider riding in to the airport. Luggage? In this day and age of first checked bag fee and additional bag fees, it's not unusual to see light travelers. Also, as a mode of public transit, a train can carry more baggage than a bus could because it's wider.

    Salt Lake has its merits but at this point, but the airport route makes more sense when looking at the entire system whole.

  12. #912
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobinator View Post
    What's the overiding benefit of an airport rail route? What do you envision- tourist going to and from the airport with all their luggage? And then what- walk 3-5 blocks to find their hotel? It's hard to imagine even a local using the rail to catch a plane.
    I visited Chicago for a week and stayed right next to Midway airport. Every day when I took the train into the city it was packed with travelers and their luggage.

    When I go to the airport here in Honolulu, I have to take two busses, and the second one is usually filled with other people also on their way to the airport.

    Even if the train drops them 3-5 blocks from their hotel, it's a lot cheaper cab ride than from the airport.

  13. #913
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    Post Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by salmoned View Post
    Well, I suppose if anti-rail groups mounted 'an intense campaign', then pro-rail groups, including the mayor, mounted an 'even more intense campaign'. Intensity is relative, spending more than 6X as much looks 6X as intense on TV, in flyers and other media. Even so, all that propaganda (pro-rail forces weren't offering facts and statistics on existing rail systems, only estimates piled onto uniquely favorable estimates of potentialities for our 'exceptional' rail situation) resulted in about 32% of the electorate voting 'Yes' on the measure. That doesn't add up to a majority of the electorate, although it was a majority of the votes cast/counted.

    However, if pro-rail forces didn't 'give up' in prior decades of losing on this issue, why should anti-rail forces 'give up' now? This issue is too narrowly divided for either side to expect the other to 'give up' or 'step aside'. One 'Yes' vote by 32% of the electorate in 30 years does not a mandate make. Of course the 'winners' want to put the issue 'to bed', consider it a 'done deal' (as Mufi did last year without even suggesting a vote on the issue). I'm willing to entertain 'reasons' why anti-rail forces should 'give up', but don't start claiming 'a majority' unless and until you truly have one.

    When someone's convicted of a crime, should they just 'give up' and accede to the punishment or should they continue to fight and appeal their case until all recourse is exhausted? Were anti-rail forces to yield now, it would only 'prove' their lack of conviction (just as the converse would have held true).

    Building a rail system will make quite a few people/organizations quite wealthy. Not building rail will make no one wealthy, but it will prevent the poor from losing more of what little they have. The economic benefit/cost is tilted completely toward wealthy recipients and away from poor contributors, since the wealthy can afford to spend on a campaign to become more wealthy, but the poor cannot spend the little they have on anything but necessities. It's unfortunate when the wealthy use their wealth to subjugate and burden the poor with taxes today for false promises of potential benefit far in the future, but educated people must do what can be done to support equity and truth.

    I truly agree with every point brought up here in salmoned's post, above ^.

    I have another idea but, I've been told that we can't build double-decked TOLL lanes above our existing H-1 because the Federal funds can't be used.
    Wouldn't that be a much better way to go? It's done elsewhere.
    Only some land edging the present roadway would be needed. Not as much.
    Only those who choose to use it pay for the priviledge. Instead of everyone.
    Much more handy in sooo many ways. Express busses? Evacuations? Etc.?
    IMO. We have to do something... I just don't think a fixed 'Steel on steel' rail line is the best answer.
    Life is either an adventure... or you're not doing it right!!!

  14. #914
    sansei Guest

    Question Re: Rail Transit

    hi this is sansei and in response to menehune man,i respect your thought's only im for rail and did vote yes and with what i shared from my sister and my cousin who both live in calif that they shared when i shared that h.o.v lane's and elevated highway's and toll bridge's wont work since it'll be more costly and for toll bridge's,

    my sister drives through them and she say's it's much more expensive from what rail has and she share's that rail is inexpensive even for here and my cousin say's the same with their rail and he shared that rail would work here also.

    well thank's for your time

  15. #915

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't expect to be using rail at all and havn't been reading this thread, so my post my be old news, but:

    Everybody want's a solution to the traffic problem, so it was easy to get a 'yes' vote win in the election, simply from the emotional aspect, no matter what the plans and costs are. Plus underhanded Mufi didn't lay it all out for us to know the fine print, keeping the reports away from us until after the election, another 'too' easy way to win at the ballot box.
    Then after we voted, they pull this dirty fast one, by switching the route to the airport. If I was affected negatively and directly by this, I'd be even more outraged, and wouldn't blame those who are if they threw a huge fit at City Hall. It may be better to have it go thru the airport instead, but to pull this BS after people voted and have no more normal
    input is pathetic. Then Mufi get's typically punkish (just after he's re-elected...) by saying Romy should go cry to his Mama, sloughing it all of on the Council. It's exactly this kind of crap by Mufi that I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last person on earth.
    Last edited by Ron Whitfield; November 7th, 2008 at 09:05 AM.

  16. #916
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    I don't have a dog in this fight, as I don't expect to be using rail at all and havn't been reading this thread, so my post my be old news, but:

    Everybody want's a solution to the traffic problem, so it was easy to get a 'yes' vote win in the election, simply from the emotional aspect, no matter what the plans and costs are. Plus underhanded Mufi didn't lay it all out for us to know the fine print, keeping the reports away from us until after the election, another 'too' easy way to win at the ballot box.
    Then after we voted, they pull this dirty fast one, by switching the route to the airport. If I was affected negatively and directly by this, I'd be even more outraged, and wouldn't blame those who are if they threw a huge fit at City Hall. It may be better to have it go thru the airport instead, but to pull this BS after people voted and have no more normal
    input is pathetic. Then Mufi get's typically punkish (just after he's re-elected...) by saying Romy should go cry to his Mama, sloughing it all of on the Council. It's exactly this kind of crap by Mufi that I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last person on earth.
    amen!!........................................peri od!!
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  17. #917
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by 1stwahine View Post
    Lynn Vasquez-Dela Cerna
    P.S. You still can't change Aala Park to Hiram Fong Park.
    agree!!!......................period!!
    stay forever young

  18. #918

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Seeking Penance View Post
    amen!!........................................peri od!!
    Never in my life did I ever consider voting for Ann Kobayashi for anything. But I did, because of the rail B.S. from Mufi as was just described by Ron. Of course, she didn't win, but at least I have a license to complain because I voted.

  19. #919
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    Lightbulb Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    underhanded Mufi didn't lay it all out for us to know the fine print, keeping the reports away from us until after the election, another 'too' easy way to win at the ballot box.
    I don’t know what “reports” you are referring to, but I assume you mean the Draft EIS, which was in fact, released before the election.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Whitfield View Post
    Then after we voted, they pull this dirty fast one, by switching the route to the airport.
    I’m assuming by “they” you are referring to City Council members Charles Djou and Todd Apo, who initiated the movement to switch the route back to the airport (which was the original plan in the first place). There is nothing “dirty” about this. City Council member Romy Cachola is the one who pulled a “dirty fast one” by forcing the City Council to adopt the Salt Lake route, which virtually none of the constituents in his district want. And since you are a rail opponent, Ron, you should realize that the harshest opponent of rail (Djou) on the city council is the one you are accusing of pulling a “dirty fast one,” so you really should educate yourself on the issues before you post this garbage.

    We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

    — U.S. President Bill Clinton
    USA TODAY, page 2A
    11 March 1993

  20. #920

    Default More garbage for ya!

    The full report was doled out in pieces and only the first part was available to the council just before election day.

    To say that changing the route after people voted and have no more say isn't dirty, is ludicris.

    I don't oppose rail totally, just want a better proposal and $ accuracy.
    As it is, it's going to be a boondoggle disaster. Mufi's folly.

    Happy dumpster diving!

  21. #921
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    Default Re: Rail Transit

    The question on the ballot was never about the plan, the routes or the cost of the project. It was truely about if it was okay (or not) to include one kind of technology in the county's transit plan.

  22. #922
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    Angry Re: Rail Transit

    I feel like the government insiders are scamming me again:
    Allegations of huge payoffs to Mufi if he gets "steel on steel" rail.
    (Hmmm, doesn't THAT sound familiar? re: Bishop Estate?)

    Engineers voicing their opinions that "s on s" is NOT the best, nor most economical....

    I just feel like it's just another Hawaii Snowjob, comin down the line.

    As if: Nothing else (maglev, narrow gauge, etc) ha just never been considered. Maybe cause those folks didn't pay-off Mufi?

    Kaonohi
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  23. #923

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    All of the other options were carefully studied for decades. Even maglev has been studied but it's unproven. The precision of the track required to allow the train to move smoothly is very tight. Clearance between the train and ground coils is about 10 millimeters. That's less than 1/2 inch.

    While not impossible to achieve it's certainly not nearly as tolerant as a conventional steel wheel system.

    With rubber tires you have a tremendous wear and maintenance problem. Steel wheels last much longer and have much less rolling resistance. Therefore lower cost and less energy needed to move the train. Rubber is also made from a petroleum product -- it contributes to our dependency on foreign oil.

    The Council brought up the route change. Mufi had nothing to do with it. And the airport route makes much more sense.

    The whole rail idea has been around for a very long time. More than a generation. To say that anything was last minute fails to take into account all the debate and delays that have taken place over the last several years.

    As for allegations of corruption, if it can be proven, then it should be prosecuted. Otherwise, it's merely unsubstantiated rumors.

  24. #924
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    Thumbs down Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    All of the other options were carefully studied for decades. Even maglev has been studied but it's unproven. The precision of the track required to allow the train to move smoothly is very tight. Clearance between the train and ground coils is about 10 millimeters. That's less than 1/2 inch.

    While not impossible to achieve it's certainly not nearly as tolerant as a conventional steel wheel system..
    I lived next to a steel-on-steel system for a few years. It was over 100 feet away and recessed in a gulley to the degree the trains were not seen. The noise was extremely invasive. The gap after every length of rail makes a "clackety-clack" noise louder than the engine or even jet planes.

    A steel-on-steel system has NO tolerance! The steel wheels on the lengths of steel track make extraordinary noise while going over the gaps in the rails.
    The 10 millimeters of maglev (used worldwide now, and well proven) gives you silence. Blessed silense that we have come to love in these islands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    Steel wheels last much longer and have much less rolling resistance. Therefore lower cost and less energy needed to move the train.
    But, at what cost?

    Peace vs. Energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    Mufi had nothing to do with it.
    Mufi virtually said, "Do it my way or you get nothing!" He gave us no choice, the citizens had no input. I view Mufi as a bananna republic dictator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    The whole rail idea has been around for a very long time. More than a generation. To say that anything was last minute fails to take into account all the debate and delays that have taken place over the last several years.
    So, nobody thought to include the citizens? Nobody thought to consult engineers?
    Well, it's too late now. Mufi's sheep are being herded into the slaughterhouse. Here we vote for whomever has the most signs up and get not what we want, but what we deserve. Business as usual.

    Quote Originally Posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    As for allegations of corruption, if it can be proven, then it should be prosecuted. Otherwise, it's merely unsubstantiated rumors.
    Yeah, it's always just unsubstantiated rumors. Welcome to Hawaii.

    You sound like a lawyer. Are you?
    Do you work for the city?
    I'll assume no answer is a 'yes.'
    Be Yourself. Everyone Else Is Taken!
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  25. #925

    Default Re: Rail Transit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaonohi View Post
    I lived next to a steel-on-steel system for a few years. It was over 100 feet away and recessed in a gulley to the degree the trains were not seen. The noise was extremely invasive. The gap after every length of rail makes a "clackety-clack" noise louder than the engine or even jet planes.
    Which system is this may I ask? The issue of alluding to one steel system's experience as representative of all is oversimplifying. Different steel systems were built at different times. Steel on steel doesn't mean there isn't different designs or types involved. Would you say all cars are equal?

    Low speed mag-lev is simply lacking a variety of manufacturers at this point. That would put us at the mercy of the manufacturer. With steel on steel, you can buy the control system from one manufacturer, rails by another, and cars from yet another. That helps build in cost control and flexibility.

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