Rail Transit

[mel]

Re: STOP the RAIL!.

Serenity, there's been an ongoing thread on Rail Transit since October 2005 spanning more than 520 messages including links to Stop Rail Now as well as to opposing websites here:

http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=9570

Stop Rail Now had quite a presence in the annual 4th of July parade. Photo slideshow of the entire parade from Rabbett at Hawaii's H4 website here:

http://tinyurl.com/kailua4th

And of course I signed the Stop Rail Now petition weeks ago.

[Random]

Re: STOP the RAIL!.

Is there a Stop the Wheels movement, whose cause is to terminate/ban any and all automotive vehicles of any type from combustion to hydrogen-powered?

[TuNnL]

Re: STOP the RAIL!.

Serenity, there's been an ongoing thread on Rail Transit since October 2005 spanning more than 520 messages including links to Stop Rail Now as well as to opposing websites here:

http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=9570

And as such, I vote that this thread should be merged into the Rail transit thread and possibly relocated to Route 808 to eliminate confusion.

[mel]

Re: STOP the RAIL!.

Yep, merging this will be a good idea.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

both go rail go! and stop rail were in attendance at today's kailua parade. looked like stop rail had more supporters.

Of course. People in Kailua don't want rail because it doesn't serve their area.

If the parade were in Ewa you'd see the opposite.

The question is: how do you move a lot of people without relying on cars and fossil fuels? Surely more people should "get it" by now, with all the info we've been seeing about greenhouse gasses, global warming, the rising price of fuel and the constant increase in traffic congestion.

Look at what we have going right now. Then look 20 years ahead. Mass transit without cars, and one that's independent of roads, is not an option.

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

I would beg to differ on that. I think most would agree putting thousands of new cars on the road that would not normally have been there, would be a bad thing. Most would agree more illegal drug (particularly the drug of choice in Hawai‘i: crystal meth) use would be a bad thing. And child porn? Geez salmoned, I had no idea you though highly of such a thing.

No, now your putting words in my mouth. All I said was it was disputable that the money currently being allocated for rail would be better spent in the hands of taxpayers. Can we stick to the facts instead of wildly embellishing others’ posts in an effort to discredit them?

Do you have gas price statistics that support this assertion, or are you just making an assumption? Remember to factor in the fact that most experts are predicting it will continue to rise.

You're very amusing, putting words into MY mouth, then claiming that that's what I'm doing to you. You're the person who mentioned those possible alternate 'private' uses for the funds not used for the rail transit project, not I. I clearly stated those uses were better because they would be chosen by the owners, not because I find the purposes attractive. You clearly mentioned possible uses which were purely 'imaginary' and not based on any real assessment. Your 'pie in the sky' thinking is an exact reflection of your ideas. In short, ridiculous.

You ask for my statistics, but will not/cannot show any that indicate there will be ANY relief of traffic or savings of fuel with a rail system. Why should someone happy with the current situation have to 'prove' anything? No, it's those who want a change, and a very expensive change, that should have to prove the change may be 'worth' it with statistics, surveys and reasonable arguments - all of which have been lacking to date.

P.S. - I live in Ewa Beach

[salmoned]

Re: Rail Transit

Of course. People in Kailua don't want rail because it doesn't serve their area.

If the parade were in Ewa you'd see the opposite.

The question is: how do you move a lot of people without relying on cars and fossil fuels? Surely more people should "get it" by now, with all the info we've been seeing about greenhouse gasses, global warming, the rising price of fuel and the constant increase in traffic congestion.

Look at what we have going right now. Then look 20 years ahead. Mass transit without cars, and one that's independent of roads, is not an option.

I believe you're only imagining people in Kailua don't want rail because it doesn't serve their area. I live in Ewa Beach and I don't want rail, not because it won't serve my area, but because it won't solve ANY problem, while creating quite a few (not the least of which is an unending financial drain).

Your question addresses a symptom; we SHOULD address the underlying causes. Increasingly fundamental solutions, such as addressing the location and concentration of jobs and suitable housing, may obviate the need for addressing the 'people moving' problem with a radical and expensive solution.

[Kimo]

Re: Rail Transit

As one who was holding a GO RAIL NOW sign on the sidelines at the Kailua fourth of July parade, I can tell you that of the people in the vicnity and the parade participants - there were MANY more people who cheered "right on!" supporting rail as they passed by.

Kailua is a bedroom community many of whose residents work elsewhere - which means a trip through the tunnel(s) to somewhere else - and anything that takes cars off the road somewhere else is a benefit to Kailua residents.

Further, Kalanianaole Highway improvements do not necessarily directly benefit Windward residents, but we all paid for those...just as folks in West O`ahu paid for H-3.

[Composite 2992]

Re: Rail Transit

we SHOULD address the underlying causes. Increasingly fundamental solutions, such as addressing the location and concentration of jobs and suitable housing, may obviate the need for addressing the 'people moving' problem with a radical and expensive solution.

People work wherever they find jobs that suit their skills. People often can't choose jobs based on geographic location. Businesses locate wherever makes the most sense in terms of overhead or where their customer base might be. A company that specializes in drydock services, for example, isn't going to locate to Makakilo. Same with housing. People move into neighborhoods they can afford. Location is part of it, but right now price is most of it.

So that still leaves the problem of how to move people from their homes to their jobs. Or moving students to their schools.
If the City built the bikeways they keep promising then some of the commuter load can be carried that way. However, most people aren't fit enough to bike from Pearl City to downtown Honolulu.

Scooters? Maybe. But older people don't have the reflexes. And most won't do this when the weather turns wetter.

Buses require drivers. At best it's one driver per 70 passengers. Trains are at least four to five times more cost effective just based on labor costs alone. Trains are also more energy efficient, and don't require the filters the City recently installed on their diesel-powered trucks.

Going via boat isn't too efficient, not if you want to get from Ewa to Downtown quickly. Water tends to have lots of drag, and it takes power to overcome that drag. Weather easily shuts down any ferry system. Then what's the backup plan? The Bus. And there's the problem of motion sickness discouraging riders from traveling via boat.

There's so many reasons why a rail system is simply the better option. And when you look at the long-range view, it's not necessarily a "cost", but an "investment".

[mel]

Re: Rail Transit

it's not necessarily a "cost", but an "investment".

An investment is something someone does voluntarily. Taxes rammed down our throats is a COST.

[joshuatree]

Re: Rail Transit

An investment is something someone does voluntarily. Taxes rammed down our throats is a COST.

Well by that definition, if I don't have children or send children to public school, that's a tax rammed down my throat. I don't use the H3, that tax was rammed down my throat. I could go on with examples. Point being, there are certain taxes we pay that doesn't benefit an individual directly but it improves the society that individual lives in.

[mel]

Re: Rail Transit

Regardless of that, every TAX is a COST to individuals, businesses, tourists, everyone. Taxes are not an investment because we are forced to pay for them by law. Every accountant knows that a tax is an expense, cost item. It is something that is forced on people and organizations.

Of course pro rail people enjoy paying more taxes. I don't.

[sinjin]

Re: Rail Transit

Regardless of that, every TAX is a COST to individuals, businesses, tourists, everyone. Taxes are not an investment because we are forced to pay for them by law. Every accountant knows that a tax is an expense, cost item. It is something that is forced on people and organizations.

Infrastructure is the epitome of investment Mel. You must be able to understand the tremendous stimulus/support to the economy that something like the interstate highway network represents.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Rail Transit

something like the interstate highway network represents.

Although that network has a different status to residents of Hawai`i. Though there are three interstate routes on O`ahu, the disconnect from the mainland version of the system leads many to view them as pork products.

But the taxes paid by Mel and others did pay to build them, and I have to assume those opposed to taxation still drive on those roads.

[sinjin]

Re: Rail Transit

Although that network has a different status to residents of Hawai`i. Though there are three interstate routes on O`ahu, the disconnect from the mainland version of the system leads many to view them as pork products.

But the taxes paid by Mel and others did pay to build them, and I have to assume those opposed to taxation still drive on those roads.

Of course they were pork. Hawaii loves pork. What they're not is "interstate". Who'd pay taxes if they were voluntary? Lack of vision, planning and yes, infrastructure investment produces hellish cities. With all the costs associated with importation of the necessities required for roads and cars I would think rail to be a fantastic idea over the long haul.