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  • Re: Rail Transit

    Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
    People work wherever they find jobs that suit their skills. People often can't choose jobs based on geographic location. Businesses locate wherever makes the most sense in terms of overhead or where their customer base might be. A company that specializes in drydock services, for example, isn't going to locate to Makakilo. Same with housing. People move into neighborhoods they can afford. Location is part of it, but right now price is most of it.

    So that still leaves the problem of how to move people from their homes to their jobs. Or moving students to their schools.
    If the City built the bikeways they keep promising then some of the commuter load can be carried that way. However, most people aren't fit enough to bike from Pearl City to downtown Honolulu.

    Scooters? Maybe. But older people don't have the reflexes. And most won't do this when the weather turns wetter.

    Buses require drivers. At best it's one driver per 70 passengers. Trains are at least four to five times more cost effective just based on labor costs alone. Trains are also more energy efficient, and don't require the filters the City recently installed on their diesel-powered trucks.

    Going via boat isn't too efficient, not if you want to get from Ewa to Downtown quickly. Water tends to have lots of drag, and it takes power to overcome that drag. Weather easily shuts down any ferry system. Then what's the backup plan? The Bus. And there's the problem of motion sickness discouraging riders from traveling via boat.

    There's so many reasons why a rail system is simply the better option. And when you look at the long-range view, it's not necessarily a "cost", but an "investment".
    People CHOOSE where they work and where they live. Bailing them out of bad choices, especially with regard to potential FUTURE choices, is bad policy and probably impossible, anyway. That said, [new] businesses and housing are located where the government ALLOWS them to be, through zoning, permitting, licensing, etc. A slight change in policies alone can relieve traffic congestion much better than any alternative, at little to no additional cost (and probably at great savings).

    'Growth' as a policy is ultimately unsustainable and we'll all be much happier if we abandon it sooner rather than later, when circumstances WILL dictate its cessation. Once growth has been curtailed, the business of 'improvement' can really soar.

    Please don't try and compare The Bus with a rail system, as it's not either/or. The Bus will not go away or be decreased if we have a rail system (and neither will the roadways, for that matter, sinjin). A rail system will just add another layer, another organization, to the existing systems. No matter the rider/driver ratio, you will still be adding more workers, not subtracting from current needs. I have read of no existing rail system that is devoid of a security force, maintenance crews, technical staff, administrators, etc. When The Bus increases its fleet, there is only a small, marginal increase in staffing needs; when a rail system is created, an entire organizational structure must be created from scratch, with the higher paying positions being filled by outsiders [because there are no locals with rail expertise].
    Last edited by salmoned; July 8, 2008, 09:54 AM.
    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
      But the taxes paid by Mel and others did pay to build them, and I have to assume those opposed to taxation still drive on those roads.
      Well, it's not like I go out of my way to boast that I enthusiastically support taxation, like Democrats. I think of it as more of a mandatory investment.
      Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

      Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by Random View Post
        Well, it's not like I go out of my way to boast that I enthusiastically support taxation, like Democrats. I think of it as more of a mandatory investment.
        It's a matter of semantics, then - but you use the same term as does sinjin: investment. Mel does not appear to view taxes in the same fashion.

        But without taxes, how else would public-good projects be funded? Exclusively by the private sector? That's unrealistic. Granted, pork projects would undergo more (valuable) scrutiny, but too many needs would be left unmet, because of a lack of support from the more selfish "I don't use it, why should I help pay for it" community.

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        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
          Please don't try and compare The Bus with a rail system, as it's not either/or. The Bus will not go away or be decreased if we have a rail system (and neither will the roadways, for that matter, sinjin). A rail system will just add another layer, another organization, to the existing systems. No matter the rider/driver ratio, you will still be adding more workers, not subtracting from current needs. I have read of no existing rail system that is devoid of a security force, maintenance crews, technical staff, administrators, etc. When The Bus increases its fleet, there is only a small, marginal increase in staffing needs; when a rail system is created, an entire organizational structure must be created from scratch, with the higher paying positions being filled by outsiders [because there are no locals with rail expertise].
          Roadways are not going away to be sure. Expansions to handle increased peak traffic could be avoided by multi-modal solutions though. A roadway has to have capacity to handle twin peaks. That's two dimensional capacity. A rail system is vulnerable to breakdowns putting the whole system out but it adjusts to ridership peaks without requiring any more physical area to be occupied. A plus where right of way is scarce. Like an island.

          Since I am not a resident I must remain neutral on the proposed projects. I am offering my opinion as an urban transportation professional. What seems a bad idea today might prove to have been genius 20-50 years from now. The last people who should be deciding these questions or other long-range infrastructure investment issues are senior citizens. The same group that is all about lower taxes. No offense.

          Los Angeles is still suffering today from the destruction of its "red car" commuter rail system of the early 20th century.
          Last edited by sinjin; July 8, 2008, 11:03 AM.
          “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
          http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
            ...but too many needs would be left unmet, because of a lack of support from the more selfish "I don't use it, why should I help pay for it" community.
            You make it sound like it's a bad thing to be sentimentally selfish in this case.
            Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

            Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

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            • Re: Rail Transit

              Originally posted by Random View Post
              You make it sound like it's a bad thing to be sentimentally selfish in this case.
              Do you mean specifically in the case of this particular issue of a rail system in Honolulu, or in the case of general public-works projects overall?

              I'm referring to those who feel that their tax burden should only be used in cases of projects that they themselves would take advantage of. For instance, not having to pay school levies as part of their property assessments, if they have no children; or not paying for road works, if they do not own a motorized vehicle. In those cases, yes - I consider it "bad" to be selfish, sentimentality not having any relevance.

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              • Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by sinjin View Post
                Roadways are not going away to be sure. Expansions to handle increased peak traffic could be avoided by multi-modal solutions though. A roadway has to have capacity to handle twin peaks. That's two dimensional capacity. A rail system is vulnerable to breakdowns putting the whole system out but it adjusts to ridership peaks without requiring any more physical area to be occupied. A plus where right of way is scarce. Like an island.

                Since I am not a resident I must remain neutral on the proposed projects. I am offering my opinion as an urban transportation professional. What seems a bad idea today might prove to have been genius 20-50 years from now. The last people who should be deciding these questions or other long-range infrastructure investment issues are senior citizens. The same group that is all about lower taxes. No offense.

                Los Angeles is still suffering today from the destruction of its "red car" commuter rail system of the early 20th century.
                sinjin, ALL resources are scarce on our island (other than seawater). As an urban transportation professional, you of all must realize the best urban transportation is walking, followed by bicycling. The idea and practice of living far from work, shopping and leisure activities is not something to be promoted or rewarded, but rather avoided (or even penalized). Railways monopolize property in a manner unmatched by roadways - you can't walk on it, ride a bicycle, run a marathon, have a parade or even visit a shop along the way (other than at a stop). A railway can only be used by trains, in this case trains designed exclusively to move people around a 10 mile stretch of rush hour traffic congestion. It's true, what seems a bad idea today might prove genius in the future, but it also may prove utterly idiotic - and I don't believe the chances of genius are greater than 1 in 10 in this case.

                Los Angeles is suffering from suburban sprawl due to continuing city, county and state mismanagement. That sort of unlimited sprawl is not possible here (the farthest possible commute is less than 50 miles). Nor do we have any compelling reason to allow large tracts of low density housing to be built far from centers of employment, other than the lack of any coherent government planning (which, admittedly, is found throughout the US due to the 'bigger is better' philosophy).
                Last edited by salmoned; July 8, 2008, 02:25 PM.
                May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                Comment


                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by Leo Lakio View Post
                  Do you mean specifically in the case of this particular issue of a rail system in Honolulu, or in the case of general public-works projects overall?
                  Since we need to stay on-topic, I don't see why we (non-Oahu residents) need to help cosmopolitan Honolulu getting the rail transit system with state tax money.

                  I don't mind paying for a child's education who is attending Farrington or Kapolei, even if I don't have a kid of my own or that my kid goes to private school.
                  Last edited by Random; July 8, 2008, 04:41 PM.
                  Beijing 8-08-08 to 8-24-08

                  Tiananmen Square 4-15-89 to 6-04-89

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by Random View Post
                    I don't see why we (non-Oahu residents) need to help cosmopolitan Honolulu getting the rail transit system with state tax money.
                    When you buy an item outside of Oahu but still within the State of Hawaii are you charged the sales tax of 4% or 4.5%?

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                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                      Railways monopolize property in a manner unmatched by roadways - you can't walk on it, ride a bicycle, run a marathon, have a parade or even visit a shop along the way (other than at a stop). A railway can only be used by trains, in this case trains designed exclusively to move people around a 10 mile stretch of rush hour traffic congestion.
                      Aww, come on. Freeways monopolize property too, then, according to these guidelines. You can't walk or bike on the freeway, or run a marathon, or have a parade. You certainly can't visit a shop on the freeway, unless you get off it at the nearest exit, drive there, then park. A freeway can only be used by cars, to move people around one or two at a time per car.
                      ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

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                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        The transit system is not paid for by non-O`ahu residents. O`ahu resients pay an extra half percent tax (4.5 instead of 4) that eventually goes to the city for transit - specifically earmarked.

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                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                          I clearly stated those uses were better
                          And clearly, I disagree. It’s a simple matter of opinion. No need to get snippy about it.

                          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                          Your 'pie in the sky' thinking is an exact reflection of your ideas. In short, ridiculous.
                          Character assassination isn’t going to legitimize your criticism any more than obscenity. Stick to the facts.

                          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                          Why should someone happy with the current situation have to 'prove' anything?
                          Basically because “those happy with the current situation” are a minority compared to the majority of commuters who are simply fed up. If I had my way, I would quadruple the tax and apply it ONLY to registered and insured motorists. I would call it “the luxury tax.” Then increase ticketing enforcement by HPD. That would instantly decrease our traffic problem. Not six years from now, immediately. But then again, I’m an idealist.

                          We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                          — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                          USA TODAY, page 2A
                          11 March 1993

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                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                            sinjin, ALL resources are scarce on our island (other than seawater). As an urban transportation professional, you of all must realize the best urban transportation is walking, followed by bicycling. The idea and practice of living far from work, shopping and leisure activities is not something to be promoted or rewarded, but rather avoided (or even penalized).
                            Would that penalizing be necessary if we had nearly unlimited, cheap and clean energy?

                            It would be wonderful if we could all walk or bike to work. But how far before that becomes impractical? 5 miles? 10 miles? And let's remember who we're talking about in the U.S. and maybe moreso in Hawaii. Two scoops of rice and potato salad. Then there's those of us with children to drop off and pick up. Then there's seniors and other challenged individuals. Rail stands a better chance of getting people to walk or bring their bike than just about anything else.

                            Railways monopolize property in a manner unmatched by roadways - you can't walk on it, ride a bicycle, run a marathon, have a parade or even visit a shop along the way (other than at a stop).
                            Answered by the she honu.

                            A railway can only be used by trains, in this case trains designed exclusively to move people around a 10 mile stretch of rush hour traffic congestion.
                            Railway R/W can be relatively narrow. Highways need expensive bridges and tunnels. Big ones. And remember that easy public trans produces additional trips for reasons not related to work commutes. I go to Laker games using our subway. Driving and parking are a bitch. Staples is near where I work. 23 miles from where I live.

                            It's true, what seems a bad idea today might prove genius in the future, but it also may prove utterly idiotic - and I don't believe the chances of genius are greater than 1 in 10 in this case.
                            Intelligent people will disagree. You're certainly entitled.

                            Los Angeles is suffering from suburban sprawl due to continuing city, county and state mismanagement.
                            You could take the population and compress it into a quarter of the space and you still would have a big city. Blaming government for peoples demands being met gets us nowhere.

                            That sort of unlimited sprawl is not possible here (the farthest possible commute is less than 50 miles).
                            A plus.

                            Nor do we have any compelling reason to allow large tracts of low density housing to be built far from centers of employment, other than the lack of any coherent government planning (which, admittedly, is found throughout the US due to the 'bigger is better' philosophy).
                            Who's the we that "allows"? This ain't China. You don't have to want a mansion to want to be out where you have yards and trees and a little peace and quiet. There are worse things than suburbs.
                            Last edited by sinjin; July 9, 2008, 05:37 AM.
                            “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                            http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

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                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              The problem with the rail tax scheme is that the tax is dedicated solely to rail... that increase part. The rest of the GE tax gets put into the general fund and devied out through appropriations to fund various projects and programs, such as education. I don't like the fact that the rail is being funded by a dedicated tax that impacts everyone.
                              I'm still here. Are you?

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                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                                Aww, come on. Freeways monopolize property too, then, according to these guidelines. You can't walk or bike on the freeway, or run a marathon, or have a parade. You certainly can't visit a shop on the freeway, unless you get off it at the nearest exit, drive there, then park. A freeway can only be used by cars, to move people around one or two at a time per car.
                                I suppose you may not have escaped a catastrophe, run a marathon or ridden in a bike race on a freeway, but I assure you, many of us have. Roadways, including freeways, don't suffer from the single use purpose of commuter railways. A freeway can [and does] carry buses, supply and service trucks, emergency vehicles, etc. In fact, a freeway can carry any sort of vehicle or pedestrian we wish to allow in the future, whether temporarily or permanently. I'm surprised at your narrow-thinking. In an emergency, would you rather take a train to the hospital or a freeway? When you purchase a refrigerator, will you be able to bring it home on the train?
                                May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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