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  • Re: Rail Transit

    I think what needs to be addressed is the role TheBus is planning on playing with regreads to this rail transit project. I can understand certain routes will not be affect by this such as routes #5 and #17 which while they make a stop at the Ala Moana Shopping Center they go to places not planned for this rail project.

    A better example would be the bus routes that travel on Dillingham Blvd, which are the #9, #40, #42, #43, #52, #62 and the C Express. That 7 bus routes that can be redone such that they don't have to travel on that street. Assuming any where from 14 (once a half hour) to 21 (once every 20 mintues) buses per hour in one direction and assuming it takes 2-3 car lengths to equal the space a bus takes that would equate any where from 28 to 63 extra cars per hour that can travel on that street should a seperate transit corridor be made on Dillingham Blvd, be it rail or a decidated bus path.

    And while the transit time may not be any different be it on rail vs TheBus at least with a decidated path you don't have to worry about delays from other stuff on the road (car accidents, stalls, road work).

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    • Re: Rail Transit

      Salmoned! - Are you retarded? Wake up. There is no more oil on the planet, we live on an island, HELLLLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

      If we do not get independent of MATSON and SHELL/BP we will be eating poi before our children are old enough to go to junior high! This is a serious issue which is way past it's time to be dealt with.

      Not only do we need a rail system, we need to put solar panels on every building and windmills everywhere, because, and this may come as news to you, but there is NO OIL ON ANY OF THE HAWAIIAN ISLANDS!

      And while we are at it, check it out, we better start growing our own food, because when oil hits $300 a barrel, (which ain't too far away), that imported food is going to be a pleasure you will tell your grandkids about from back in the good old days.

      You basically can buy into the b.s. that our government and our industry has been feeding us to keep consuming, keep spending, keep financing the war machine and everything will be okay, stay in your homes and nobody gets terrorized, watch the nightly news and be afraid, - OR you can WAKE THE F UP and GET WITH THE PROGRAM and START THINKING ABOUT THE FUTURE! -

      - Aaaaaand about what you are leaving behind for future generations, because you already TOOK a hell of a lot from them and you have left them at a SEVERE disadvantage. When you think about exactly what a messed up world you are leaving for your children, the small amount of taxes we are talking about paying to put them on the road to independence from Matson / the Mainland / greedy oil companies / the military industrial complex that has been running this country since it began (and incorporated these islands in the last century) and all the people who put money before people and the environment, it really is not a big amount at all,

      And once there is a train for everybody else to ride, you can have the freeway all to yourself as you burn $1.00 a mile cruising down the road and paying for whatever is left of the Middle East debacle.
      ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

      Comment


      • Re: Rail Transit

        Originally posted by salmoned View Post
        Sure, people could change, just don't go holding your breath (and spend billions of dollars on a transit system that's redundant to and less flexible than the one we already have) until they do...
        Like the billions of dollars we spent to bomb Kuwait and Iraq to secure our oil supply?
        ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

        Comment


        • Re: Rail Transit

          Originally posted by salmoned View Post
          The 'we' is our government, the same organization trying to push the rail system down our throats without a proper evaluation.
          It's been studied for at least 35 years. It's been studied to death. It's a good idea and necessary for a city that's continuing to grow.

          Honolulu has the ideal geographic layout to be serviced by a system like rail. Cost to society is relative -- we're using more than a billion dollars of gas on Oahu. What we pay for in gas alone will dwarf what rail will cost our communities over a short period of time. This doesn't include the cost of cars, the cost of parking or the cost of what is supposed to be done with the cars after they've lived out their useful lifespans.

          There's a growing concern regarding greenhouse gasses. Rail will help reduce oil dependency and cut down on the CO2 being produced by cars. There's a much bigger picture than "me" and "I". There are thousands who are looking forward to using the rail system, and if you check on the numbers of bus riders it'll give you an idea of how many people that system will service.

          Compare that to the number of cars using the zipper lane each morning -- about 3,800. At best that's 11,400 individuals. In reality, with just two per car when that statistic was published, it's probably closer to 8,000. A paltry number compared to what the bus system carries: 230,000 per day all around Oahu. If 10% of that was morning Leeward commuters, that's still 23,000 riders, far more than could be handled by the Zipper Lane. More lanes, more freeways and more cars? NOT a good idea!

          Comment


          • Re: Rail Transit

            Originally posted by salmoned View Post
            Why aren't the drivers currently congesting traffic during rush hour taking The Bus? It won't be cheaper than The Bus, it won't be faster than The Bus - what will make them choose to take a train, when they refuse to take a bus now?
            The bus is SLOW. I used to ride it from UH to Pearl City. It took TWO HOURS. Round trip was FOUR HOURS. Much of that time was being stuck in downtown traffic.

            While I could cover that distance on a bike about 30 minutes faster, how many people have that level of conditioning to do it on a daily basis, and doesn't mind arriving hot sweaty and smelly?

            As for walking, did you ever notice how people wait for the "good" parking spaces at shopping centers, when they can easily get an open space that's about 100 yards away? If they're not willing to walk 100 yards to go from their car to a store, how could anyone even suggest someone walk a mile or two to their office every single day?

            Who would give up driving and catch the train? My wife for one. She would certainly ride the rail to commute to work. As for me? I mostly work at home, although jobs can take me to the neighbor islands and elsewhere. And, yes, I drive a hybrid. And, yes, I used to do part of my commute on a bike. And, yes, I have an SUV because you can't tow a boat with a hybrid nor carry 200 pounds of bulky equipment in it.

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            • Re: Rail Transit

              PS - I bet we can put a LOT of windmills on that land that nobody can use anymore.

              like the old sugarcane fields. Or how about our mountains, owned and paid for by the US military, full of pollution, harmful $#!t, and unexploded ordinance. How about in the pineapple plantations? Just a tourist trap! Most of our pineapples come here by boat!
              ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

              Comment


              • Re: Rail Transit

                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                Why don't YOU stick to the facts and show proof of your assertion that the majority of commuters ARE fed up AND want AND will use a rail system?
                The fact that “Stop Rail Now” has been running full-page major daily ads, front-page MidWeek ads, broadcast commercials, and posting minions in front of Mānoa Safeway® with clipboards...and STILL haven’t got a measly 44.5K signatures after two and a half months is enough proof for me. If I took your arguments on the merits, it should be duck soup considering there’s nearly a million residents on this island. The reality is, in most parts of the world, bumper-to-bumper traffic is only acceptable if you’re not in it.

                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                there has been no 'character assassination'
                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                I'm surprised at your narrow-thinking.
                Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                Yep, sounds like some character-attacking happening here.
                Thanks, Turtlegirl.

                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                I see you now agree that small policy changes can improve traffic congestion now, and presumably in the future, without spending huge amount of money on a rail system.
                Not at all. The “small policy change” I outlined would spend a huge amount of money on a rail system. Try to read more carefully.

                Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                I don't see why you believe such actions are 'idealist', however.
                Basically, because people like you consider yourselves “realists” simply by perpetuating what timkona describes as “the politics of no.” I.E. Star Trek fans were often rediculed as “pie-in-the sky” idealists when they predicted many of the “science fiction” technologies seen in the show would become reality. Had we listened to the “it's too expensive, too ‘rediculous’” realists, a lot of advances would never have seen the light of day.

                We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

                — U.S. President Bill Clinton
                USA TODAY, page 2A
                11 March 1993

                Comment


                • Re: Rail Transit

                  Originally posted by turtlegirl View Post
                  PS - I bet we can put a LOT of windmills on that land that nobody can use anymore.

                  like the old sugarcane fields. Or how about our mountains, owned and paid for by the US military, full of pollution, harmful $#!t, and unexploded ordinance. How about in the pineapple plantations? Just a tourist trap! Most of our pineapples come here by boat!
                  Hawaii could even consider a floating wind farm.
                  “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                  http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

                  Comment


                  • Re: Rail Transit

                    Originally posted by TuNnL View Post
                    If I had my way, I would quadruple the tax and apply it ONLY to registered and insured motorists. I would call it “the luxury tax.” Then increase ticketing enforcement by HPD. That would instantly decrease our traffic problem. Not six years from now, immediately. But then again, I’m an idealist.
                    You make no mention of constructing a rail system in your comment here, which is the one to which I referred. I read it very carefully.

                    turtlegirl, if saving oil is your concern, you should realize that promoting conversion to sustainable energy sources and obviating the need for commuting is far more important than providing a rail service to leeward Oahu. We can just as well save oil by promoting The Bus service, and it is available RIGHT NOW - we don't have to wait years and spend billions of dollars, it services 10 times the population a rail system would service and we already have it. Do you get it now? Buses and cars can run on renewable energy sources as easily or more easily than a rail system.

                    Also, your comment, 'Salmoned! - Are you retarded?', doesn't compare favorably with mine of, 'I'm surprised at your narrow-thinking', in terms of character assassination. Your accusation falls flat with respect to your transgression.

                    Composite 2992, some buses are slow, some fast. You said it took 2 hours, how long would it have taken by car? How long will it take for a rail system? One raw datum does not an argument make. With increasing demand and less traffic on the roads (due to increased bus use), service becomes faster and more express routes become feasible. Travel from Ewa Beach on an express bus takes about 1 1/2 hours to Waikiki. Doesn't it make more economic sense to use the decrease in traffic to provide faster transportation service, rather than have a system which cannot benefit from the decrease in traffic it provides?

                    When will someone answer my one question? The one question which in supposedly 35 years of study no one has answered?
                    Last edited by salmoned; July 10, 2008, 08:28 AM.
                    May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Rail Transit

                      Originally posted by Composite 2992 View Post
                      1. Honolulu has the ideal geographic layout to be serviced by a system like rail. Cost to society is relative -- we're using more than a billion dollars of gas on Oahu. What we pay for in gas alone will dwarf what rail will cost our communities over a short period of time. This doesn't include the cost of cars, the cost of parking or the cost of what is supposed to be done with the cars after they've lived out their useful lifespans.

                      2. There's a growing concern regarding greenhouse gasses. Rail will help reduce oil dependency and cut down on the CO2 being produced by cars. There's a much bigger picture than "me" and "I". There are thousands who are looking forward to using the rail system, and if you check on the numbers of bus riders it'll give you an idea of how many people that system will service.

                      3. Compare that to the number of cars using the zipper lane each morning -- about 3,800. At best that's 11,400 individuals. In reality, with just two per car when that statistic was published, it's probably closer to 8,000. A paltry number compared to what the bus system carries: 230,000 per day all around Oahu. If 10% of that was morning Leeward commuters, that's still 23,000 riders, far more than could be handled by the Zipper Lane. More lanes, more freeways and more cars? NOT a good idea!
                      1. Could you describe the 'ideal geographic layout' for rail, including the population size, density and demographic? Are you suggesting we can and will do away with cars when we have a rail system? If so, please pass the bong, I'd like to experience the high you're on. Most people switching from cars will likely drive to the train station. Those who don't will take a bus. Just a few may be able to walk down the street a couple miles. That means we'll still need a whole new set of parking lots [at the stations]. Will they be free? How many cars will 'disappear' due to rail? Answer - none. [Yes, I realized a while back that these rhetorical questions were too hard for most respondents to comprehend, so I've tried to ease their distress by providing the answer.]

                      2. The thousands you cite looking forward to using rail are already using the bus. They are already reducing oil dependency and cutting down on co2 emissions. They are already contributing to reduced traffic. They will NOT contribute to reduced co2 emissions from CARS.

                      I use The Bus, but I don't look forward to riding rail. It would mean taking a bus to rail, taking rail to the appropriate station, then taking a bus to my final location. Right now I take a bus and ride it to my final location. Which ride will take me longer? [This is a rhetorical question, if the answer isn't obvious, you don't understand public transportation (the rail trip takes longer)].

                      3. I don't see your point here. Bus riders don't want to transfer to a train, then back to a bus. Also, I agree we don't need more freeways, lanes or cars. A rail system isn't going to reduce any of those.
                      Last edited by salmoned; July 10, 2008, 09:36 AM.
                      May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Rail Transit

                        Dude, my "Are you retarded" question was actually a legit question.
                        ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                        Comment


                        • Re: Rail Transit

                          turtlegirl, replace every 'you' with 'I' in your posts #596 and #587, read for effect. This is a legitimate exercise. I don't need the results, I had the answer when I learned who got cited for drinking on the beach.
                          Last edited by salmoned; July 10, 2008, 09:20 AM.
                          May I always be found beneath your contempt.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Rail Transit

                            Aloha anybody?

                            Why yes, thank you. I'll take two.

                            Be my guest.

                            Don't mind if I do.

                            You're most welcome.

                            And aloha to you too.

                            Well thank you very much.

                            Don't mention it.
                            “First we fought the preliminary round for the k***s and now we’re gonna fight the main event for the n*****s."
                            http://hollywoodbitchslap.com/review...=416&printer=1

                            Comment


                            • Re: Rail Transit

                              Originally posted by salmoned View Post
                              turtlegirl, replace every 'you' with 'I' in your posts #596 and #587, read for effect. This is a legitimate exercise. I don't need the results, I had the answer when I learned who got cited for drinking on the beach.
                              I did your first request. The grammatical errors that resulted from this experiment were hilarious!!

                              Sooooo, what are you, some teetotaling prohibitionist? Thanks for taking the high road and trying to prove some unrelated point with that cheap shot!
                              ~ This is the strangest life I've ever known ~

                              Comment


                              • Re: Rail Transit

                                The lowest cost estimate of a rail project, one that will end at downtown (and not reach UH Manoa or Waikiki), results in an expense of at least $4,000 for every man, woman and child on Oahu (2006 est.). The federal government may kick in $1,000/person. Of course, the expense won't be divided equally, people spending a higher proportion of their income here on Oahu (as in poorer people) will pay proportionately more (based on income), since it is being funded through an excise tax. Visitors will kick in a share too, based on their spending on Oahu. Those figures, of course, don't include rising cost estimates, inflation, the expense of increasing our electrical generating capacity (for an electric train), the losses of commerce during construction (and condemnation/destruction of existing properties), the ongoing operation and maintenance of the facilities or myriad other 'associated but unanticipated' expenses. Let's just round it all out to $10,000 each to get it through the first year or two of operation. If we all just pay up now, it might turn out to be less, if we don't, it may be more. So, step right up and plunk your money down, everyone who votes "yea"! Oh, 4 people in your family, that'll be $40,000, thank you very much. Oops, too late - it's gonna cost even more now.

                                turtlegirl, yes, the grammatical errors with the substitutions were consistent with the content without the substitutions.
                                Last edited by salmoned; July 10, 2008, 01:59 PM.
                                May I always be found beneath your contempt.

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