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Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

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  • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

    Disagree. Neither do YB ships use airports in their commerce.

    But YB and the airlines are both transportation systems between islands that require massive infrastructure owned, improved and operated by the state just in order to exist. They pay rent and fees, of course, for use of those facilities. And those facilities get upgraded and expanded from time to time.

    Just like SuperFerry.

    SuperFerry is just another inter-island transport service. It is no different than the others described. It is paying "rent" for the facilities that the state improved to accommodate it. In fact, they intended to pay it all back! It was only a LOAN! What a concept! WE GET TO KEEP THE FACILITIES AFTER THEY'RE PAID FOR BY THE SUPERFERRY!

    But HSF is being held to a higher standard than any of the others who hold entrenched positions in local transport. The only difference is that Hawaii SuperFerry is not yet "entrenched."


    Originally posted by Miulang View Post
    They are a different beast, because they carry both people and cargo (like the US Mail). They are more similar to HSF in their purpose, but the issue isn't about airplanes, is it? And airplanes don't use the facilities at Kahului or Nawiliwili Harbor, either.
    Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

    Comment


    • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

      Superferry President and Chief Executive Officer John Garibaldi said: "Obviously, we are disappointed. While the ruling is a loss for Hawaii Superferry and our employees, it is a greater loss for the state of Hawaii."

      Apparently, the superferries' investors can take some comfort in the fact that Judge Cardoza's ruling hurts them less than the hurt Garibaldi alleges has been done to the manipulated state and the superferries' dooped employees. Somewhere down the garibaldi chain of hurt must come the military, but whether more, less or tied with hurt done to the superferries' private investors remains to be revealed by Mr. Garibaldi.

      Comment


      • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

        those of us who had signed up at hawaiisuperferry.com for updates on fares, etc. got an email from the company earlier today:

        Mahalo for all the outstanding support we have received, especially over the last several weeks. While we are deeply disappointed in the Maui circuit court’s decision, we are also heartened by the vast outpouring of support among residents and businesses throughout the state who have asked to help.

        Your voice is urgently needed. Without swift action by the Hawai‘i State Legislature, Hawaii Superferry has no choice but to leave the state.

        We urge you to call and email your legislator immediately to let them know of your support.
        it provides handy dandy links to contact our reps and senators as well as a sample email:

        Sample Email:

        Subject: Please support Hawaii Superferry

        Dear Legislator:

        I support a special session of the Hawaii State Legislature to identify a solution that would enable Hawaii Superferry to continue operation while the environmental assessment is being conducted.

        The people of Hawaii want interisland transportation choices. Hawaii Superferry is a transportation alternative that is wanted and needed by residents and businesses of Hawaii and will bring many benefits to our state.

        Prompt action is needed to save this transportation option and protect Hawaii’s business climate.

        Mahalo,
        they also ask us to forward their email to any friends or family we know who are supportive of the ferry.

        i wonder how quickly it will be til someone whines and complains that such emails are in bad taste, illegal, or unethical use of customer information, blahblahblahwonkwonkwonkcrycrycry....
        superbia (pride), avaritia (greed), luxuria (lust), invidia (envy), gula (gluttony), ira (wrath) & acedia (sloth)--the seven deadly sins.

        "when you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people i deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous, and surly..."--meditations, marcus aurelius (make sure you read the rest of the passage, ya lazy wankers!)

        nothing humiliates like the truth.--me, in conversation w/mixedplatebroker re 3rd party, 2009-11-11, 1213

        Comment


        • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

          A Star-Bulletin survey mentioned earlier in this thread has an error rate of +/-8% when it comes to individual islands, so it could be interpreted either way: a majority of Kauaians support HSF, a majority of Kauaians oppose HSF. I think the only absolute is that a majority of Oahuans support HSF.
          Last edited by popoki; October 11, 2007, 01:58 AM.

          Comment


          • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

            Originally posted by kamuelakea View Post
            We need the good ole days when the Plantation Asians controlled the House, the Senate and the Governor. The good old days when nevah have disagreements in politics cuz everybody was on the same team. The good ole days when Hawaii was being bulldozed over while making Plantation Asians rich. The good ole days when HGEA was almost all Japanese. The good ole dayz that gave state workers the best benefits in the entire USA. The good ole days when most Hawaiians were still too ignorant to even know they been ripped off and so joined the Plantation Asians in the Haole Boogieman parade. The good ole days when stuff got done by who you know, not what you know. Nevah have red tape cuz my couzins bruddahs sistah work in the permit office.

            Ahhhh, doze were da dayz.
            I’ve just about had it with your ignorant ranting, kamu. You want to keep turning each thread into the same broken record you’ve been singing ’til your face turns blue, go right ahead. Ever wonder how John Waihee III came to power with a budget surplus and left incoming Gov. Ben Cayetano with the largest black hole of a deficit in state history? Because he was a typical Hawaiian. He hooked up all his friends. That’s right, you heard me say it. Plantation Asians, my @ss. Native Hawaiians have been running their society this way since before Captain Cook. Who do you think those Plantation Asians learned it from? You think kanaka maoli conducted society based on merit instead of ‘ohana bloodline? Nā ali‘i would slap yo head for such a kūpule suggestion.

            Duh, kamu. You da one who should be shame twisting the facts into this manure.

            We can’t be so fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary Americans.

            — U.S. President Bill Clinton
            USA TODAY, page 2A
            11 March 1993

            Comment


            • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

              Originally posted by zztype View Post
              Disagree. Neither do YB ships use airports in their commerce.

              But YB and the airlines are both transportation systems between islands that require massive infrastructure owned, improved and operated by the state just in order to exist. They pay rent and fees, of course, for use of those facilities. And those facilities get upgraded and expanded from time to time.

              Just like SuperFerry.

              SuperFerry is just another inter-island transport service. It is no different than the others described. It is paying "rent" for the facilities that the state improved to accommodate it. In fact, they intended to pay it all back! It was only a LOAN! What a concept! WE GET TO KEEP THE FACILITIES AFTER THEY'RE PAID FOR BY THE SUPERFERRY!

              But HSF is being held to a higher standard than any of the others who hold entrenched positions in local transport. The only difference is that Hawaii SuperFerry is not yet "entrenched."
              We can debate this technicality until we're blue in the face, Blaine. The bottom line is, hardly anyone (except maybe you and a few others) believes that HSF should not be subjected to an EA. The issue is the timing of the EA at this point: whether HSF should be allowed to operate while it is being done is the question, not that it should not be done.

              Some people think it's OK to let HSF run without a proactive EA and have the mitigations take care of any problems that arise at that time, while others believe that HSF should not be allowed to run without the proactive EA because if problems do arise, the mitigations will not be able to solve the problem or it would cost more to solve the problem later on. The Special Session would be deciding this issue, not that the HSF shouldn't be subject to an EA. Even HSF agrees that an EA should be done, but they want to be able to start operations before it is completed.

              An EA is not an EIS. An EA (as required by HRS 343) determines whether an EIS should be done. The State has now commissioned Belt Collins to do a $1 million dollar EA on all the commercial harbors in Hawai'i. Here are the official definitions for an EA/EIS from the OEQC if you want to wade through it yourself. If, after an EA is completed and a FONSI is issued by the department (in this case, the DOT) reviewing the EA, then an EIS is not required. HSF was exempted from an EA by a Class 6, sec. 8 exemption on the DOT's list of exemptions filed with the OEQC. The HSC determined that the exemption was inappropriate because even though the modifications to Kahului and Nawiliwili were considered inconsequential (to the tune of about$14 million per harbor for the barges, tents, Porta Potties, security fencing, paving and striping of roads), the DOT neglected to take into consideration the secondary threats to the environment, like invasive species and humpback whale strikes. The DOT blew it, because if HSF had done the EA at the very beginning (like 2 years ago, when it started encountering problems with Maui Tomorrow and the Sierra Club), the DOT could have at that time issued a FONSI and everything would have been peachy keen. Now, with the EA on the horizon, there's a good possibility that an EIS will be generated because of all the testimony that came out during the Maui hearings about invasive species and humpback whale strikes.

              Miulang
              Last edited by Miulang; October 11, 2007, 06:39 AM.
              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

              Comment


              • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                I just recieved and email alert from aloha airlines that they are starting several new flights from the mainland to maui and kauai. I wonder what kinda review process adding more flight requires.... those flights will certainly have some impact.....lets see if it gets protested... i doubt it.
                the bigger the government the smaller the citizen.

                Comment


                • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                  Updated at 6:53 a.m., Thursday, October 11, 2007
                  Superferry special-session opponents meet on Big Isle
                  Advertiser Staff
                  A "No Special Legislative Session for Superferry" event is planned on the Big Island at 3 p.m. today at Gov. Linda Lingle's liaison office at the Hilo State building, 75 Aupuni St.

                  Concerned citizens opposing the special session will deliver letters for the governor.
                  "What a disturbing precedent — changing state law to bail out a business that gambled with our tax dollars and lost,"

                  spokesperson Cory Harden said in a news release to local media. "A launch before environmental studies is putting the cart before the horse."

                  Comment


                  • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                    Originally posted by escondido100 View Post
                    I just recieved and email alert from aloha airlines that they are starting several new flights from the mainland to maui and kauai. I wonder what kinda review process adding more flight requires.... those flights will certainly have some impact.....lets see if it gets protested... i doubt it.
                    These flights allow people the ability to get to their outer Island destinations without having to stopover in Honolulu; I don't think it creates a new market for travelers. Furthermore, these Airlines aren't carrying vehicles.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                      We can debate this technicality until we're blue in the face, Blaine. The bottom line is, hardly anyone (except maybe you and a few others) believes that HSF should not be subjected to an EA. The issue is the timing of the EA at this point: whether HSF should be allowed to operate while it is being done is the question, not that it should not be done.

                      Miulang
                      What da hell you talking about??? "Hardly anyone"? Holy crap.

                      You seem to have lost track of our conversation here.

                      I believe a couple of posts back, if you followed the argument, I said that if harbor improvements were made on YB's behalf, that we ought to stop them from sailing while we studied the impact of those improvements, just as we seem to be requiring the SF to stop sailing while we study.

                      Similarly, I advocate stopping the airlines from flying whenever we do improvements to the airports, while we study the possible impacts from every conceivable angle. (Let me get out my proctoscope, here.)

                      I am in favor of applying the law equally to all transportation systems.

                      If that cannot be done, or the effect is not desirable, then the law should be changed to remove discriminatory language--make it "agnostic," if you will.

                      I don't believe I posted anywhere on whether an ES should or should not be done. My whole argument is that if you're going to require one to do it, then the deal should be applied equally, to all.

                      Yes, I am in favor of the HSF sailing.

                      As far as an ES, if that will really make you happy, go ahead and do one. I don't mind at all. But don't expect the planet to stop spinning while you study. Some of us have other stuff to do.

                      As far as comparing airports and harbors, the idea is that they are both transportation hubs. Airlines and shippers are transporters, both of people and goods. Both of these industries use our transportation hubs and benefit from money spent by the state to improve their facilities.

                      Any law applied to one should be equally applied to the others.
                      Make trouble, have fun, do good stuffs.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                        To be fair, while I don't think it's "almost everyone," a lot of pro-HSF people here HAVE said they are in favor of an EA or EIS (what's the difference, anyway?), including me. I think a LOT of people messed this thing up, including the state and HSF.

                        I want it to run. I think some kind of compromise should be met. But I also agree with Blaine: The law should apply equally to everyone.
                        But I'm disturbed! I'm depressed! I'm inadequate! I GOT IT ALL! (George Costanza)
                        GrouchyTeacher.com

                        Comment


                        • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                          Originally posted by scrivener View Post
                          To be fair, while I don't think it's "almost everyone," a lot of pro-HSF people here HAVE said they are in favor of an EA or EIS (what's the difference, anyway?), including me. I think a LOT of people messed this thing up, including the state and HSF.

                          I want it to run. I think some kind of compromise should be met. But I also agree with Blaine: The law should apply equally to everyone.
                          I agree with both you and Blaine. The issue, however, is that you cannot stop YB from sailing while an EA is done on its impacts because it already exists and is a lifeline for the Neighbor Islands.To do so would starve the Neighbor Islands, and I'm sure neither of you would want to do that to the people of Kaua'i, Maui, Moloka'i, Lanai or the Big Island. As the DOT is planning to do an EA on the cruise industry and its impacts on Hawai'i next year, I do hope that they scrutinize some of the practices of YB and Matson, because there is no doubt that they helped spread invasive species during their time in service. Stopping air service while conducting an EA on the State's airports is just as nonsensical; most of the tourists (and money) arrive by plane, and to stop the planes would be like cutting off one's nose to spite his face. HSF has not yet started service so it has not had time yet to become "entrenched".

                          One thing for sure, having sat in on some of the hearings on Akaku and listening to some of the State folks talk about their practices (or not), I think the DLNR and the DoA have some housecleaning to do, too.

                          If the Legislature wants to "correct" or "refine" current Legislation, that's fine. That's their prerogative. But as you may have noted from the Advertiser story this morning, the Legislature has enough votes to go along with the Gov. to call the Special Session, but they also want HER to be the one to call it. They know it's mainly her Administration's fault that this debacle occurred, and they want her to own up to it.

                          She and the Legislature need to understand, though, that if it looks like the Special Session is being called for the sole purpose of "bailing out" HSF, the demonstrations she saw in Nawiliwili Harbor will not only grow, but expand to Maui and possibly the Big Island. On the Senate side, that wouldn't be the case because there are some key departmental appointments that have to be approved (including the permanent director of DLNR), but for the House, its primary reason for meeting would be to discuss closing loopholes in HRS 343. The whole notion of using a Special Session just to help out one private company boggles my mind; and to think, this all could have been prevented if the House could have voted on the same measure which the Senate had passed, which was to let HSF sail while an EA was being done.

                          Miulang
                          Last edited by Miulang; October 11, 2007, 10:51 AM.
                          "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                          Comment


                          • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                            Stopping air service while conducting an EA on the State's airports is just as nonsensical; most of the tourists (and money) arrive by plane, and to stop the planes would be like cutting off one's nose to spite his face. HSF has not yet started service so it has not had time yet to become "entrenched".
                            Why would it be nonsensical if protesters are so insistent they are protecting the aina? Afterall, tourists are bringing in even more foreign substances than what intra-island would. To say just because HSF has not started service so tough luck shows the lack of consideration, they spent a great deal of money to get the boat built based on this state's word. They already have started service when it comes to business and op cost.


                            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                            They know it's mainly her Administration's fault that this debacle occurred, and they want her to own up to it.
                            Why is it her administration's fault? Again, 343 gave them the power to exempt. And in 05, Cardoza agreed as well. Politicians are just being politicians, cowards who don't want to stick their necks out. If this special session blows up, they just want a way out by solely point fingers at Lingle.


                            Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                            The whole notion of using a Special Session just to help out one private company boggles my mind; and to think, this all could have been prevented if the House could have voted on the same measure which the Senate had passed, which was to let HSF sail while an EA was being done.
                            Why is it boggling? 343 is the heart of the problem. None of this would have been possible without the loopholes created by 343. And I realized something, a lot of anti-ferry folks say, "see, if HSF just simply had done their EA two years ago, none of this would happen." Does this mean they already know the EA would amount to an assessment of no significant impact by the HSF? If that is the case, why insist on one then? If not, then why can't anti-ferry folks understand of course HSF would have tried to avoid an EA if legally possible. Would you spend that kind of money starting up a business knowing two years down the road, a paper report can effectively shut you down? So HSF avoiding an EA is nothing evil, it's just common sense.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              Why is it boggling? 343 is the heart of the problem. None of this would have been possible without the loopholes created by 343. And I realized something, a lot of anti-ferry folks say, "see, if HSF just simply had done their EA two years ago, none of this would happen." Does this mean they already know the EA would amount to an assessment of no significant impact by the HSF? If that is the case, why insist on one then? If not, then why can't anti-ferry folks understand of course HSF would have tried to avoid an EA if legally possible. Would you spend that kind of money starting up a business knowing two years down the road, a paper report can effectively shut you down? So HSF avoiding an EA is nothing evil, it's just common sense.
                              Maybe I'm an exception, but if I was planning on plunking down $300 million to start a business, I would not want to cut corners, even if the people who have the authority to enforce rules said that I would be exempted from certain rules. In this case, do you really think Lehman et al were blissfully unaware of the fact that every single state in the Union requires new projects like this (especially if asking for federal funding) undergo some sort of environmental assessment? I mean, if they developed the whale avoidance policy, then they knew there some hoops they had to jump through. They knew in 2005 when the Maui enviros filed their appeal that they might end up being liable for an EA.

                              Sure, hindsight is 20/20, but I like to think I would run an ethical company that went over and above trying to meet or exceed regulatory expectations so no one could come back later and tell me I had forgotten to do something and haul my okole into court. That's just me, though. Saving $1 million to do an EA which results in more than $1 million being spent on lawyers' fees and lost revenue due to being in court doesn't sound prudent to me.

                              IF HRS 343 had been enforced fairly and across the board, as Blaine and Scriv suggest, then HSF would have just sighed and complied with the EA. The DOT, which has final review authority could have just rubber stamped it with a "FONSI". Then all pau, no complaints from anybody. Now that all the stuff about the whales and invasive species got brought up by witnesses at the Maui trial, I think that will almost guarantee that the EA that's being done will trigger an EIS. Lots of what Judge Cardoza allowed to be said wasn't really germane, but it's in the record now, so it could be used as evidence to support not issuing a FONSI for HSF in the long run.

                              Miulang
                              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 7

                                Originally posted by scrivener View Post
                                EA or EIS (what's the difference, anyway?)
                                Here's how the Feds describe it (as summarized from the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA) of 1969); many states have their own, similar mini-NEPAs.

                                Whenever the government is involved in any "major action that significantly affect(s) the quality of the human environment," an EIS is required by law. If a major action will not have a significant impact on the environment, the agency must prepare the shorter EA.

                                In Hawai`i, H.B. 702 provides for amending Section 343, Hawaii Revised Statutes, in several places. The bill "requires an environmental assessment for harbor improvements using public moneys; clarifies that traffic congestion is to be considered in an environmental impact statement process; requires the preparation of an environmental impact statement for the Hawaii superferry project; requires work to cease on Hawaii superferry until an environmental impact statement is accepted; makes appropriation to department of transportation to prepare an environmental impact statement."

                                Perhaps someone with a better understanding of the State Legislature can offer additional clarification on this bill, its status and ramifications?

                                Comment

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