Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

    Originally posted by zztype View Post
    But back on my point: The 100 yard zone is not to hamper free speech, but to protect public safety. Yes, it could be construed by those who wish to swim out in front of a large vessel as curtailing their free speech. But the government is not doing it to curtail the speech, but rather for the safety of all involved.


    Blaine
    This wouldn't be the first time free speech and distance requirements have come into play thanks to that awful "church" group from Topeka that pickets funerals.

    http://www.silha.umn.edu/Winter%2020...20Protests.pdf

    Comment


    • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
      The unemployment rate on Moloka'i as of Aug. 2007, was 5.9%, about double the State average, but not really that bad, when you consider that Moloka'i has no big industries (except for Moloka'i Ranch).
      And why don't they have more jobs?

      I don't care how they become an economically self-sufficient community, as long as it's legal - just do it.


      Originally posted by Miulang View Post
      It may indeed be the last "Hawaiian" island.
      The last one the average person can book a flight to.

      Comment


      • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

        Originally posted by Miulang View Post
        But the businesses being impacted by HSF at Kahului and Nawiliwili harbors are not in the same business as HSF and don't compete with each other anyway: on Maui, there's a bank, a fabric store, a trendy fashion store for young women and a restaurant. In Nawiliwili harbor, it's the Kauai Food Bank, Hesse Flooring and Island Liquidators.

        An EA would study the effects of the HSF traffic on these businesses and suggest possible mitigations. Doing the EA while allowing the HSF to operate might just cause some of these local businesses to fail. Better to look at mitigation ahead of time.
        But what you're suggesting is borderline big brother, you're dictating what businesses gets to stay in business and what goes? You live in Seattle, a big city, it's often common to see a new retail building go up and it may not have the same businesses as the old surrounding area but it effectively kills off the old area. Would you say that needs to be stopped?



        Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
        And why don't they have more jobs?

        I don't care how they become an economically self-sufficient community, as long as it's legal - just do it.
        Here's my take. If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference.

        Comment


        • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

          Here are the results of a new poll as published today. Though it's clearly not the be-all and end-all for determining how everyone in our state feels, it's interesting nonetheless:

          Poll finds broad support for Superferry

          The poll, taken between Thursday and Sunday, surveyed 300 randomly selected registered voters throughout the state. It had a margin of error of plus or minus 6 percent, according to QMark.
          According to the poll, 55 percent of the voters surveyed had a "very favorable" perception of the Superferry and another 31 percent said their perception was "somewhat favorable."
          When asked whether they thought the Legislature should intervene if necessary to allow the Superferry to resume service while an environmental survey is conducted, 72 percent said yes.
          So 86% have a favorable perception of it and 72% say it should operate during the environmental assessment. Those numbers are pretty much as expected.
          .
          .

          That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

          Comment


          • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

            Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
            Here's my take. If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference.
            That sounds fair enough, but you still have to account for the balance between increased human traffic and increased infrastructure.

            It seems extremely shortsighted to make allowances for a sudden increase in human traffic in small communities without giving adequate consideration to proper infrastructural development necessary to accommodated that increase.

            Everyone needs to eat, sleep, poop, and travel, and in an increasingly litigious society there will of course be need for increases in emergency medical and legal services.

            So it's not just a matter sending a huge shipload of people into a small community and accommodating only the ship, itself. The community should first be bolstered to absorb the increase. Then you have firm grounds to send the ship in over protests.

            Comment


            • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
              If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference.
              I would have to think about how isolated a community is allowed to be, but otherwise I agree.

              Comment


              • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                Originally posted by woodman View Post
                So it's not just a matter sending a huge shipload of people into a small community and accommodating only the ship, itself. The community should first be bolstered to absorb the increase. Then you have firm grounds to send the ship in over protests.
                That's all well and fine - until you talk about HSF and Kauai. The numbers involved aren't that significant. Would we have that big a protest if AA/HA/Go! added an extra flight or two? Didn't HAL just say they had to add night flights to compete with Go? Where was all the protests over that?

                Comment


                • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                  Originally posted by GeckoGeek View Post
                  That's all well and fine - until you talk about HSF and Kauai. The numbers involved aren't that significant. Would we have that big a protest if AA/HA/Go! added an extra flight or two? Didn't HAL just say they had to add night flights to compete with Go? Where was all the protests over that?
                  I can see your point, but

                  1.) they're not bringing their cars. They are using vehicles that are already on the road and operated by renal car compaies.

                  2.) here is currently a price war between air carriers, and the airlines are hemorrhaging money. I don't think those flights are full any more than I would expect that $9 is the acceptable standard fare for a ticket. When the war ends, the ticket price will rise, and flights will probably be cut back.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                    glossyp says: "The primary "legal" agriculture products of Kauai are coffee and flowers. Bananas, papayas, green vegetables, etc. are also part of what is produced on Kauai. There is also honey, taro, pork and numerous other items."

                    And who among such producers needs to or is willing to take at least a two day overnighter to Oahu, via Superferry or any ferry, just to get their product to Oahu? Small scale farmers on Kauai do okay at Kauai farmer markets. Larger scale Kauai farmers are not clamoring for a faster route to Oahu for their products, and Superferry will not be cheaper than current shipping routes as soon as Superferry rates reflect their operating costs plus their investors' profit margin. Is there a farmer large scale or small who feels it necessary to spend the time and costs to babysit his produce across the channel, spend at least one overnight on Oahu and then return to Kauai with his vehicle by water ferry on a regular basis? If the Superferry gang is banking on such Kauai farmers they in for a deserved surprise.

                    ++-
                    glossyp: "... the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal because present high school students are generally uninterested or incompetent.."

                    Many interested and competent high school students are not drawn toward an agricutural because "the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal", not the other way around. It is derisively laughable to suggest that the Superferry has even one iota of impact toward making the future of agriculture on Kauai any less dismal than it is.
                    Kauai is not the only Hawaiian island that merits being called a garden island. However, such merits reside in potential far more than actuality. Industrial farming products from California help doom agriculture in Hawaii; even so, without reasonably available, priced and taxed arable land in Hawaii, agriculture that includes more than industrial monocrops (on leased state and homestead lands and questionable water diversions) cannot flourish in Hawaii as they could and should because the very limited land of the islands is being sold off to highest bidder land speculators bearing mainland/foreign monies.

                    +++-
                    glossyp: "...as a society do we give up on brightening the future of agriculture simply because it doesn't appear to be appealing or do we make an effort to demonstrate and teach the value of such?"

                    Would that Oahu's legislators ask that of themselves about Hawaii as they ask of themselves how they can help push Superferry down the throats of Kauai citizens!!

                    ++++-
                    glossyp: "How many energized and committed students would it take to help agriculture thrive? "


                    That's kind of like asking: How many energized and committed students would it take to set Hawaii on a course leading to a promising and sustainable future?

                    So, with respect to agriculture in Hawaii, the first question to ask and be answered should be: How many energized and committed Hawaii legislators would it take to help agriculture thrive?

                    Considering how many Hawaii legislators hold a real estate license enabling them to profit from their "repesentative duties", I would not hold my breath expecting any change of conscience to benefit the future of agriculture in Hawaii from those quarters.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                      joshuatree: " If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference. "

                      Why not round out your picture as regards Kauai, self-sufficiency and "outside interference":

                      1) Kauai citizens stop paying State and Federal taxes

                      2) Kauai lease PMRF to U.S. Navy

                      3) Kauai use non-U.S. shipping concerns and not deal with U.S. import taxes

                      4) Kauai be able to seek foreign investments independent of U.S./Hawaii restrictions

                      5) Kauai impose and collect taxes and user fees (in euros, yen, loonies?)

                      ...and more benefits of not being gagged, bound, hands to feet by colonial laws meant to subjugate Kauai citizens for the benefit of the U.S. and the State who together create all the dependency conditions which the pro-Superferries gang complains about.

                      Yet still the arrogance persists that somehow Honolulu/Oahu society is self-supporting, self-sustaining while Oahu's neighbor islanders are significantly less so?! Such an assumption is so absurd it cannot begin to merit being arguably sensical.
                      Last edited by craig foo; October 3, 2007, 09:19 AM.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                        Originally posted by woodman View Post
                        That sounds fair enough, but you still have to account for the balance between increased human traffic and increased infrastructure.

                        It seems extremely shortsighted to make allowances for a sudden increase in human traffic in small communities without giving adequate consideration to proper infrastructural development necessary to accommodated that increase.

                        Everyone needs to eat, sleep, poop, and travel, and in an increasingly litigious society there will of course be need for increases in emergency medical and legal services.

                        So it's not just a matter sending a huge shipload of people into a small community and accommodating only the ship, itself. The community should first be bolstered to absorb the increase. Then you have firm grounds to send the ship in over protests.
                        I take it we are now referring back to Kauai? My statement was directed more at the Molokai situation that Gecko was discussing. However, regarding the Kauai scenario, just how many visitors head to Kauai in a year? What would HSF's contribution be? I seriously doubt their contribution is anywhere near the cruise ships or the airlines. HSF hasn't been even proven yet, are you suggesting money be poured into infrastructure for what may become a failed enterprise? Isn't that being shortsighted from a different angle?


                        Originally posted by woodman View Post
                        I can see your point, but

                        1.) they're not bringing their cars. They are using vehicles that are already on the road and operated by renal car compaies.
                        Yes, you have a point about the cars but you have to also realize, the car issue may be null if one assumes that these people coming in by HSF would have rented cars if they flew in. I think it's safe to leave the cruise ship visitors out of this comparison because I doubt many Hawaii residents travel to another island by cruise ship. So they bring in their cars but don't rent one, that cancels one another.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                          Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                          joshuatree: " If a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to cut off public assistance too. That's the real meaning of living off the land. Too often, communities cry interference from the outside, yet they don't realize by taking up public assistance, they already are welcoming outside interference. "

                          Why not round out your picture as regards Kauai, self-sufficiency and "outside interference":

                          1) Kauai citizens stop paying State and Federal taxes

                          2) Kauai lease PMRF to U.S. Navy

                          3) Kauai use non-U.S. shipping concerns and not deal with U.S. import taxes

                          4) Kauai be able to seek foreign investments independent of U.S./Hawaii restrictions

                          5) Kauai impose and collect taxes and user fees (in euros, yen, loonies?)

                          ...and more benefits of not being gagged, bound, hands to feet by colonial laws meant to subjugate Kauai citizens for the benefit of the U.S. and the State who together create all the dependency conditions which the pro-Superferries gang complains about.

                          Yet still the arrogance persists that somehow Honolulu/Oahu society is self-supporting, self-sustaining while Oahu's neighbor islanders are significantly less so?! Such an assumption is so absurd it cannot begin to merit being arguably sensical.
                          Well, if Kauai is an independent state, then all your suggestions can apply but it's not. From your post, I take it you wish for Kauai sovereignty? If so, nothing wrong, but that would explain the tone in your posts.

                          I will correct my statement that since Kauaians do pay taxes, if a community wants to remain isolated, that is fine, but they need to take no more public assistance than what they put into the system vis-a-vis taxes. This is similiar to what Gecko was asking about the Molokai siutation. If you take more than you put in, outside influence isn't being forced on you at that point.

                          There is no arrogance from me, I don't see Oahu as self-supporting or self-sustaining but then, Oahu doesn't seem to have a problem with interisland commerce or interstate commerce. No one is jumping into Honolulu Harbor to stop the HSF.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                            Originally posted by craig foo View Post
                            glossyp says: "The primary "legal" agriculture products of Kauai are coffee and flowers. Bananas, papayas, green vegetables, etc. are also part of what is produced on Kauai. There is also honey, taro, pork and numerous other items."

                            And who among such producers needs to or is willing to take at least a two day overnighter to Oahu, via Superferry or any ferry, just to get their product to Oahu? Small scale farmers on Kauai do okay at Kauai farmer markets. Larger scale Kauai farmers are not clamoring for a faster route to Oahu for their products, and Superferry will not be cheaper than current shipping routes as soon as Superferry rates reflect their operating costs plus their investors' profit margin. Is there a farmer large scale or small who feels it necessary to spend the time and costs to babysit his produce across the channel, spend at least one overnight on Oahu and then return to Kauai with his vehicle by water ferry on a regular basis? If the Superferry gang is banking on such Kauai farmers they in for a deserved surprise.

                            ++-
                            glossyp: "... the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal because present high school students are generally uninterested or incompetent.."

                            Many interested and competent high school students are not drawn toward an agricutural because "the future of agriculture on Kauai is dismal", not the other way around. It is derisively laughable to suggest that the Superferry has even one iota of impact toward making the future of agriculture on Kauai any less dismal than it is.
                            Kauai is not the only Hawaiian island that merits being called a garden island. However, such merits reside in potential far more than actuality. Industrial farming products from California help doom agriculture in Hawaii; even so, without reasonably available, priced and taxed arable land in Hawaii, agriculture that includes more than industrial monocrops (on leased state and homestead lands and questionable water diversions) cannot flourish in Hawaii as they could and should because the very limited land of the islands is being sold off to highest bidder land speculators bearing mainland/foreign monies.

                            +++-
                            glossyp: "...as a society do we give up on brightening the future of agriculture simply because it doesn't appear to be appealing or do we make an effort to demonstrate and teach the value of such?"

                            Would that Oahu's legislators ask that of themselves about Hawaii as they ask of themselves how they can help push Superferry down the throats of Kauai citizens!!

                            ++++-
                            glossyp: "How many energized and committed students would it take to help agriculture thrive? "


                            That's kind of like asking: How many energized and committed students would it take to set Hawaii on a course leading to a promising and sustainable future?

                            So, with respect to agriculture in Hawaii, the first question to ask and be answered should be: How many energized and committed Hawaii legislators would it take to help agriculture thrive?

                            Considering how many Hawaii legislators hold a real estate license enabling them to profit from their "repesentative duties", I would not hold my breath expecting any change of conscience to benefit the future of agriculture in Hawaii from those quarters.
                            Thanks for finally taking the time to reply. It is clear that we disagree on whether or not HSF can be a plus for farmers on Kauai. I believe that the more options farmers/producers have for transporting goods and expanding markets creates a potential that did not exist before.

                            We'll have a better idea of the general condition of agriculture state and county wide when the 2007 ag census is done. One stat worth noting is that the actual number of crop acres harvested increased by nearly 10 percent from the 1997 ag census to the 2002 one.
                            Last edited by glossyp; October 3, 2007, 12:28 PM. Reason: add info

                            Comment


                            • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                              Originally posted by joshuatree View Post
                              But what you're suggesting is borderline big brother, you're dictating what businesses gets to stay in business and what goes? You live in Seattle, a big city, it's often common to see a new retail building go up and it may not have the same businesses as the old surrounding area but it effectively kills off the old area. Would you say that needs to be stopped?
                              .
                              What I'm saying is that the EA would look at the impact on business and then provide the current businesses some relief in the form of mitigations. Around here, no building can be torn down and replaced without an EA automatically generated, at bare minimum. And there are always public notices so that concerned citizens can send comments to City Hall.

                              Is it the fault of the incumbent businesses that a new business comes into the area? Of course not. But I also don't think it's fair that the bank, the restaurant, the fabric store don't have any access to relief from the onslaught of traffic which may not benefit them. Whatever happened to win/win? Is it win-only-if-it-suits me? If mitigations occur and the businesses still have to shut down, that's one thing. But to force this major change on those businesses without taking their needs into consideration is also big brother.

                              Yes, you have a point about the cars but you have to also realize, the car issue may be null if one assumes that these people coming in by HSF would have rented cars if they flew in. I think it's safe to leave the cruise ship visitors out of this comparison because I doubt many Hawaii residents travel to another island by cruise ship. So they bring in their cars but don't rent one, that cancels one another.
                              That is true, once the cars are out of the immediate harbor area. But you cannot deny the fact that 180 cars coming off a boat on one small road with no other egress in or out (as it true for both Kahului and Nawiliwili) will create congestion as they try to merge onto the arterial in a very limited amount of time. This doesn't happen at the airports, where the car rental companies are situated outside the immediate airport and rental cars have more than one way to leave the area.

                              Miulang
                              Last edited by Miulang; October 3, 2007, 12:41 PM.
                              "Americans believe in three freedoms. Freedom of speech; freedom of religion; and the freedom to deny the other two to folks they don`t like.” --Mark Twain

                              Comment


                              • Re: Hawaii Superferry - Chapter 6

                                Originally posted by Miulang View Post
                                Whatever happened to win/win? Is it win-only-if-it-suits me?
                                So why the big stink about not letting the EA and HSF service run concurrently? What no one knows right now is what the actual traffic patterns will be with HSF docking. Maybe that bank or restaurant or fabric store will get more business? Usually, businesses want traffic, that helps with their bottom line. If an EA and HSF service is run concurrently and issues develop, HSF service can always be suspended much like what we see now. So why the win-only-if-it-suits me mentality that we see now?

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X