Sovereignty - help me understand

[timkona]

Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

I enjoyed the Constitution link. Lots of similarities to the major themes of most civilized countries. I skimmed it over and noticed that free speech isnt mentioned until 1/2 way down. No big deal really. I also noticed that non-Hawaiian children born in Hawaii would not be citizens until 7 years of residence. Imagine a child without a country?

Why is their no message or update from the King since 2005?

Is there any references where the nitty-gritty of day to day society are addressed? Most of what is in the Constitution is fairly broad in scope. Lot of stuff being put off for the legislature to decide. I guess you can't answer all the questions in one fell swoop.

Those links were good reading.

[cabanalane]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Was the seller of your home the legal owner?

A lot of reading about "legal owner." Maybe in Hawaii's case, it's easier to figure out. But take a piece of land, France for example, who is the "legal" owners? How far back in history do we have to go?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

-Want to keep dual citizenship? (US/Hawaiian). Let's vote on that.

What if the US government disagrees? The same dilemma has been one of the major sticking points for the Quebec sovereignty movement for decades. It's not a unilateral issue, but of course, open to negotiation.

Please keep the discussion going; for such a hot topic, the level of civility here is appreciated.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

What if the US government disagrees? The same dilemma has been one of the major sticking points for the Quebec sovereignty movement for decades. It's not a unilateral issue, but of course, open to negotiation.

Please keep the discussion going; for such a hot topic, the level of civility here is appreciated.

yeah, what if the US disagrees? That would be an interesting debate on the U.N. level, wouldn't it? How often has the US rescinded citizenship from its citizenry, and how often has that happened when said citizens gained new citizenship?

In order for the discussion to keep going, it would be realllly helpful if people 1)read up Jonah's links, or at the very least 2)read up what we have said about it here at HT. I don't want to repeat myself.

[acousticlady]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

As an outside observer, I like to think I am reasonably well read on the subject of sovereignty, as are others here on the CONUS. My son is actually studying this at UH. With this thread going on, it became a big topic of conversation the other night at dinner. I was asked to convey this from a Candian citizen - along the lines of Hawaiian sovereignty is that of the Aloquin tribe (not 100% sure on the name of the tribe). They too had been trying for sovereignty for many years. The Candain government refused to recognize them. They went to the UN and pled their case. The UN granted them sovereignty regardless of the official Canadian position. This in turn forced the Canadian government to recognize them.

[joshuatree]

Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

I agree.

Although it's a little dated, Tony Castanha's UH Political Science M.A. thesis entitled "The Hawaiian Sovereignty Movement: Roles of and Impacts on Non-Hawaiians" might prove more educational.

Thanks for the link. I looked it over, haven't had the time to read through the whole thing yet. But I think many Non-Hawaiians are against sovereignty because of Chapter 8. The table might be unsettling to them. No matter what form of sovereignty, the transition phase looks ok but as soon as we hit the final phase, it doesn't bode well. Words like "treason" are in that column? I can't see why anyone would go along with a plan that may eventually brand them with "treason". Plus, the viewpoint is to drastically curtail tourism. Good in one sense but bad in another, what will be the main economic engine then?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

The status of First Nations in Canada, especially what rights for secession they may have in Quebec were the province to separate from Canada, are another of the complex facets of such discussions. This article (from the University of British Columbia paper) reported on what the different political parties in Quebec might do (part of coverage of their recent election.)
As noted before, study of the Quebec question provides some perspectives that are relevant to the concern of Hawaiian sovereignty, particularly in the wide range of issues related to secession in the modern world.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

Thanks for the link. I looked it over, haven't had the time to read through the whole thing yet. But I think many Non-Hawaiians are against sovereignty because of Chapter 8. The table might be unsettling to them. No matter what form of sovereignty, the transition phase looks ok but as soon as we hit the final phase, it doesn't bode well. Words like "treason" are in that column? I can't see why anyone would go along with a plan that may eventually brand them with "treason".

I suspect the Tories in the American colonies probably thought the same thing.

Plus, the viewpoint is to drastically curtail tourism. Good in one sense but bad in another, what will be the main economic engine then?

Something more sustainable than tourism.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Please explain how one could draw parallels between the Algonquins and the nation of Hawaii. One is a tribe of people, the other is a recognized nation which had over 30 standing trade treaties with other nations worldwide, a constitutional monarchy, an extensive naturalized citizenry base, minted money, public education system, public health system, tax system, etc.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

PM, I am surprised that you would so quickly dismiss the Algonquins as simply just "a tribe of people." I would suggest that you do further research into the status of American Indian and Canadian First Nations "tribes" prior to European settlement of the North American continent. Many of them had established governmental and social structures comparable to those of the Kingdom of Hawai`i for several centuries.

[PoiBoy]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

PM-I don't see how a tribe not recognized by "whoeva" is different than a "nation" recognized by "whoeva". As if tribal people have any less rights on this planet than "nations".

[Miulang]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

I found this glossary of terminology that pertains to First Nation peoples of Canada, but I think also accurately describes most aboriginal groups all over the world, including the first people of Hawai'i, the kanaka maoli. And the Aboriginal people of Australia are trying to do the same thing that the kanaka maoli are doing. Here's another perspective on the sovereignty issue from the Native American viewpoint.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: Soveriegnty - help me understand

Something more sustainable than tourism.

Agreed but what will it be? It's easy to say "something" but without anything tangible, people will be against sovereignty for practical reasons. It's hard for an average joe to just take a leap of faith when there is a mortgage to worry about.

[acousticlady]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Please explain how one could draw parallels between the Algonquins and the nation of Hawaii. One is a tribe of people, the other is a recognized nation which had over 30 standing trade treaties with other nations worldwide, a constitutional monarchy, an extensive naturalized citizenry base, minted money, public education system, public health system, tax system, etc.

I think the point is, that if this "tribe" could take their case to the UN, then an established (modern) nation would have an even stronger case to take to the UN.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

why are you talking about tribes when the focus of this discussion is national sovereignty.

Our issue isn't about the Hawaiians™. It is about Hawai'i®.