Sovereignty - help me understand

[joshuatree]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

One more way for the new government to make money: sell URLs under the domain name ".HI" (like Tuvalu has made money selling domain names with .TV at the end).

It's probably also useful to learn some lessons from other Pacific Island economies (i.e., no sense reinventing the wheel or getting burned twice). Hawai'i could also become an offshore tax haven for Americans.

Miulang

That could be good or bad depending on how well a new government operates without corruption. Selling domain names and being a tax haven can invite organized crime and rogue nation agents.

[Miulang]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

That could be good or bad depending on how well a new government operates without corruption. Selling domain names and being a tax haven can invite organized crime and rogue nation agents.

heheheheh. I didn't say they were necessarily good ideas, only that they were ideas because everyone is wringing their hands that they don't have a clue how an independent Hawai'i could survive economically.

Miulang

[greentara]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Possible economics: Microalgae farming, sea salt harvesting, deep salt water desalinization...all would utilize resources that are fairly easy to come by and don't require super complex mechanisms to work. And the products could either be used in Hawai'i or sold abroad. In fact, the new government wouldn't even have to do the work: sell leases to the rights to grow the microalgae, harvest the salt and the water and share the profits with the people.

Miulang

Just finished reading Native Daughter because of a discussion on this form. Ms. Trask comes across militant but quite frankly I agreed with almost everything she said. And btw I didn’t get the impressions that she was against ALL “holes”, what I did come away with is the notion that she is fully aware of the rape of her native land and her people by imperialist domination of her precious culture and she is angry. And yes, tourism is not the only economic answer for Hawaii to survive as a nation as mentioned above. Natural resources are there, but people are so conditioned to think they need more than they do to be happy. Once they become part of a consumer driven culture it’s all down hill because they can never get enough to make them happy. The economic suggestions made by Miulang are extremely do able.

This subject is enormously sensitive to me due to my compassion for Tibet and her people. There are many similarities between Tibet and Hawaii. I also got the impression that Ms. Trask feels that Haole is a state of mind more than an ethnic representation. Still trying to really understand the Sovereignty Movement however, the more I read and research the more inclined I am to side with the Nationalist Movement.

[Jonah K]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Just finished reading Native Daughter because of a discussion on this form. Ms. Trask comes across militant but quite frankly I agreed with almost everything she said. And btw I didn’t get the impressions that she was against ALL “holes”, what I did come away with is the notion that she is fully aware of the rape of her native land and her people by imperialist domination of her precious culture and she is angry. And yes, tourism is not the only economic answer for Hawaii to survive as a nation as mentioned above. Natural resources are there, but people are so conditioned to think they need more than they do to be happy. Once they become part of a consumer driven culture it’s all down hill because they can never get enough to make them happy. The economic suggestions made by Miulang are extremely do able.

This subject is enormously sensitive to me due to my compassion for Tibet and her people. There are many similarities between Tibet and Hawaii. I also got the impression that Ms. Trask feels that Haole is a state of mind more than an ethnic representation. Still trying to really understand the Sovereignty Movement however, the more I read and research the more inclined I am to side with the Nationalist Movement.

The mention of Haunani-Kay Trask reminds me of a certain Wai'anae-based, kanaka maoli attorney who's been somewhat overshadowed. Here's a another link that might prove educational...
http://www.opihi.com/sovereignty/

[Miulang]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

The mention of Haunani-Kay Trask reminds me of a certain Wai'anae-based, kanaka maoli attorney who's been somewhat overshadowed. Here's a another link that might prove educational...
http://www.opihi.com/sovereignty/

Unless he has changed his mind recently, Poka Laenui thinks the Akaka Bill is still a way to preserve current kanaka maoli entitlements while continuing the fight for eventual sovereignty. Many pro-sovereignty advocates reject this path entirely, claiming the Akaka Bill does not guarantee the current entitlement programs and totally ends the promise of sovereignty because of the clause that states that passage of the Akaka Bill ends all future claims against the US.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Has the SovMov lost momentum?

Seems like many of the websites I see have very little, recent, updates. Most of the data or articles is from 2004 or before.

[Miulang]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Has the SovMov lost momentum?

Seems like many of the websites I see have very little, recent, updates. Most of the data or articles is from 2004 or before.

No, it hasn't lost momentum. It's just regrouping right now. There was criticism in the past that there were too many disparate voices speaking about sovereignty, and too much confusion because too many of the ideas were so different. So now, many of the groups are talking to each other (Hui Pu is a great example). You don't hear about it in the general press, but the kanaka maoli activists know about it via the coconut wireless. One of these days, when they're ready, the rest of us will hear about them, though.

Miulang

[greentara]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

You don't hear about it in the general press, but the kanaka maoli activists know about it via the coconut wireless.

LOL the Rastas in Jamaica call it the "bush phone"

JONAH: Thanks for the link...

[mapen]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

I'm inclined to believe that the sovereignty movement doesn't really have much of a plan, direction, or momentum. They occasionaly make some noise and get on the news, but not much more.

Kau Inoa is very visible. Their current mission seems to be to create a list of Hawaiians, so that in the future they may come together and decide what to do next. They are treading very lightly and very slowly.

To me, the whole thing seems very racist. I think that for society to move forward, we should dispense with any effort to dilineate on the basis of race. The sovereignty movement is about empowering those of a single race. Such an effort represents, to me, a backwards step for society.

Democracy and equality for all races and all peoples are higher ideals for a society to pursue, and any movement that seeks to empower only those of a certain race is just backwards and wrong.

[sinjin]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

To me, the whole thing seems very racist. I think that for society to move forward, we should dispense with any effort to dilineate on the basis of race. The sovereignty movement is about empowering those of a single race. Such an effort represents, to me, a backwards step for society.

Is there only one "society" moving forwards? Self-determination is a basic right IMO. The "self" in this case applies to an ethnic group firstly and a nation secondly.

Democracy and equality for all races and all peoples are higher ideals for a society to pursue, and any movement that seeks to empower only those of a certain race is just backwards and wrong.

What defines a culture if its representatives cannot set the ground rules and tone in their own homeland?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

In discussions of this sort, I can grasp on an intellectual level, and to some extent agree with the point that timkona and others make - that there should not be any programs, systems or structures that give preference to any one racially-distinct group over another.

But those arguments consistently fail to take into account the reality of today's world, and can only be accepted in a (presently non-existent) utopian ideal of a world where all races are on an equal playing field.

As much as I would like to accept that I (as a male descendant of primarily European ancestry) bear no burden or responsibility for actions of past generations, I cannot ignore said past trangressions, and accept that, at this point in time, programs that provide additional opportunities to certain racial classes are right and proper, in order to work towards a level of balance.

Would I like a world where these programs are not necessary? Of course. But it does not exist at present, and a blanket rejection of those programs would, in my opinion, take us further away from a goal of equality, rather than bringing us closer to it.

That is how I can personally justify acceptance of the various structures that we so often discuss here, ones designed to rectify a few of the injustices done to kanaka since the illegal overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawai`i barely more than a century ago.

Sovereignty for Hawai`i? I am neither sold on the idea nor willing to reject it out of hand - I will continue to listen and learn more.

[Miulang]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Kau Inoa is very visible. Their current mission seems to be to create a list of Hawaiians, so that in the future they may come together and decide what to do next. They are treading very lightly and very slowly.

To me, the whole thing seems very racist. I think that for society to move forward, we should dispense with any effort to dilineate on the basis of race. The sovereignty movement is about empowering those of a single race. Such an effort represents, to me, a backwards step for society.

Democracy and equality for all races and all peoples are higher ideals for a society to pursue, and any movement that seeks to empower only those of a certain race is just backwards and wrong.

Remember that Kau Inoa is a child of OHA, and many kanaka maoli regard Kau Inoa as a hinderance and not a help.

Miulang

[timkona]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

a goal of equality,

Love, and it's usual consequence, children, is what will foster equality. I must admit that there are as many 'mixed-race marriages' in Hawaii as there are in the SF Bay Area. This dilution will only take 2-3 more generations before the notion of racial separatism becomes OBVIOUSLY idiotic. It is already idiotic, just not obvious to some. If you truly want to preserve racial identity, then history has shown that it is MANDATORY to control reproduction. Therefore, racists are often the people who favor eugenics. Hitler is the poster child of this type of warped thinking.

South Africans typically refer to Americans as "The Mud Race".

As an aside, I would say that my thoughts on race and racism were radically changed when I came to Hawaii. For 12 years I chewed on this. Hawaii Threads has been the resource, for me, that has helped to crystallize my views on the subject. I was never a racist. I just didn't know why.

And now, I am starting to see the SovMov in a more clear light. I agree with Leo....when you remove the question of race or ethnicity, you are likely to convince me of the merits of such a Mov.

[Miulang]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

For me, it's never been about race or ethnicity. It's about giving the first people who settled Hawai'i the same economic and educational opportunities that all who came after them have access to and enjoy. So if it wasn't the kanaka maoli, it would have been some other group who came first.

Race is a convenient label to help us define who we are/are not. But underneath the skin, we all evolved from the same common ancestors. Even when we do dilute our species back to the point where we all have bits and pieces of each others' gene pools, though, I think we would still want to preserve the rich cultural heritages of the people from who we are descended.

In order to get where we're going, we need to know where we came from.

Miulang

[GnosticWarrior]

Re: Sovereignty - help me understand

Hey Tim,

I agree with you that in general people should not discriminate based on race. That would be the ideal moving forward tho. However, America/Hawaii's has a history that is chock full of discrimination based on race. Until we all as human beings can heal the hurts of the past, all of us in our diversity can not move forward. Our strength as a nation/state is only as strong as our weakest link. We must heal the hurts of injustice in order to move forward with the unity of brotherhood. So bcs of this past, the act of this healing is directed toward a particular race.

Now what are you and I as non-kanaka maoli, doing to help heal this hurt? We can't just go on thinking its the govt.'s job, for we help elect, those in govt. And the govt. does not have a good track record in trying to heal the wounds that it inflicted. So you and I as voters must pressure the govt. to make amends. Pay the right and full compensations and what not, even if that means an increase in taxes or less services for non-kanaka maoli. If we don't do this can you blame the kanaka maoli for believing that govt. is corrupt and have disrespect for its laws? But, let's be reasonable. All legal residents believe they have the right and are a part of Hawaii just as the kanaka maoli are.

Let's work towards a solution. And, I think those who think they are trying to fight for so called equality by challenging the constitutionality of KSBE are full of shit. That's like trying to rub salt in the wound and not working towards healing the hurts to move forward in brotherhood. Those actions and many not even dealing with the illegal overthrow and annexation are preventing the healing. What about at least paying OHA the what they are owed for the use of the Airport on ceded land? C'mon, there is a difference between what you can get away with legally and what you know is right in your heart. Let's correct the wrong, with what we know is right.

So until all of us non-kanaka maoli, beneficiaries of their demise, can work towards healing the hurts of injustice, I could never expect the kanaka maoli to see me as his/her brother even if I see him/her as my brother/sister. I would also hope that they don't hold their breath about it tho, and know that seeing things by race instead of character and spirit will only burden themselves. The power of forgiveness only lies with them and for their own benefit only. They have to want to move forward too.