Native Hawaiian independence?

[Random]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Separating folks by race is just so 20th century.

Started in the 19th century, and so far, it hasn't gone the way of the dodo.

Besides, until the USA can assimilate the Native American Indian Nations in the US territory, I doubt we can drop the Native Hawaiian Independence issue anytime soon.

[Kalalau]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Affirmative Action never made any sense to me until an econ class where the prof flat out said it was the easiest way to jack up the economy. If minorities which now don't have the same buying power as whites did, the gnp would leap ahead, the idea is so simple--you actually do want your customers to walk in the door with as much disposable income as possible. If it takes setting aside some spots in colleges and universities to do that, so be it. But why not quit squandering money on (fill in the blank) and just build more colleges & universities? The same prof also posed the question, what was the most profitable investment the fed. gvt. ever made. So many possibilities...TVA, national highway system, WPA projects still in use today. Give up? It was the GI Bill, it raised the employability and skills of millions, put em all in higher tax brackets (which most of us like being in).

As to Hawaiian Independence. Once I saw an old Zuni indian being interviewed. The question came up, does it bother you that your people have been subjugated to the US. "My people were here thousands of years before the US ever existed and we will be here after its gone". So Hawaiian independence is going to happen, it is just a question of when and how. Our USA will not last forever, nothing ever does, and there have been some very bad decisions made recently that might shorten its life significantly. When it dissolves, Hawai'i will be cut loose. It may or may not find a happier situation than it now enjoys. A friend brought back a photo of some old Soviet monument from the former East Germany that proclaimed the eternal friendship of those two nations, neither of which exists now. The USSR was ended remarkably peacefully, with the stroke of a pen. Thats all it takes to end an empire.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

So Hawaiian independence is going to happen, it is just a question of when and how. Our USA will not last forever, nothing ever does

Note: Hawaiian independence already happened; it was an independent kingdom for quite a while. It did not last forever, nothing ever does.

The USSR was ended remarkably peacefully, with the stroke of a pen.

Peacefully? Tell that to the South Ossetians, Chechens & Georgians.

[matapule]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

I am also Portuguese, Filipino, Spanish, Chinese and French. I think I identify most with being Hawaiian, mainly because I went to Kamehameha and they kinda drill it home, you know?!

I am really confused! Kahea, in your first post, you identified yourself as "native Hawaiian." Yet above you identify yourself with various ethnic backgrounds. Is the only criteria for being "native Hawaiian" attendance at Kamehameha school? I am not being facetious, this is a sincere question. To me "native Hawaiian" means 100% Hawaiian and frankly I don't believe there are very many of those around. I bet you can find a little bit of British sailor in most every native Hawaiian background.

Another question. Historically, it is reported that the Hawaiian population that emerged prior to British exploration and then domination, came from Tahiti. However, it is reported that those Tahitians subceded people from the Marquesas, who those same Tahitians subjugated, dominated, and eventually eliminated. And who knows who superseded the Marquesans. So the question: who really has the right to be called "native Hawaiian" those Tahitians who were interlopers (just like the Europeans that followed) or some earlier group of people who no longer exist? It is a racial conundrum.

Native Americans (Indians) also practiced racial genocide on other Native American tribes in order to gain supremacy, which is not too much different than what the Europeans did in the Americas. So who holds the moral high ground with regards to being a "special people" anywhere in the world?

A bit off-topic, but that is a reason that I am probably not going to vote for Obama (not going to vote for McCain either) since although he is half black and half white, he has chosen to identify himself as "black." I so much wanted Obama to say, "These are my positions. Vote for me because of my positions, not because of my race. America, it is time to go beyond the race issue." In my opinion, Obama is just trying to feather his nest by being the first "black" President and assure himself a place in history. I wanted Obama to be the first president to create a Renaissance in the US and assure his place in history.

I ask these questions with aloha to further discussion and create a deeper understanding of the issues.

[Kalalau]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

The USSR was dissolved with the stroke of a pen on Christmas day 1991.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

The USSR was dissolved with the stroke of a pen on Christmas day 1991.

But not, as you said, "peacefully." There have been a number of wars amongst several of the former Soviet republics, including the one that flared up again last Thursday.

Incidentally, for the sake of accuracy, 12/25/91 was the date of Mikhail Gorbachev's resignation as President of the USSR. The Belavezha Accords (declaring the USSR dissolved and replaced with the Commonwealth of Independent States) were signed 12/8/91, starting the process of the Union's final month. The Alma Ata Protocol was when most of the States signed dissolution papers (with the exception of Georgia), on 12/21/91, with all but the Baltic States announcing their intention to join the CIS. The Council of Republics of the Supreme Soviet recognized the dissolution on 12/26/91.

Your version is a bit too cleanly movie-like, but not fully accurate.

[TuNnL]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

A bit off-topic, but that is a reason that I am probably not going to vote for Obama (not going to vote for McCain either) since although he is half black and half white, he has chosen to identify himself as "black." I so much wanted Obama to say, "These are my positions. Vote for me because of my positions, not because of my race. America, it is time to go beyond the race issue." In my opinion, Obama is just trying to feather his nest by being the first "black" President and assure himself a place in history.

Like you, I will likely not vote for either Barack Obama or John McCain. Both of them are establishment candidates whose hands are already tied to partisan loyalties and special interests (though Obama to a lesser extent). But I must refute your assertion that Obama has chosen to identify himself as “black.” He has told the story countless times quite proudly of his white Kansan mother and black Kenyan father, and has made it part of his campaign biography.

Yet, it is the mainstream media, particularly through television, radio, newspapers and Internet channels, which have continued to identify him as “black.” Do you ask Harvard University, to tell the New York Times that Obama is not first black president of the Harvard Law Review? As a candidate for a national political office, do you waste your time calling up thousands of media outlets to correct their characterization of your race?

As long as the messages being relayed to the masses are not complete falsehoods, you learn to live with it, and concentrate on ensuring your campaign message and political priorities get the airtime and page space they deserve.

That’s one of the unfortunate realities of today’s politics.

[/offtopic]

[kahea67]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

I am really confused! Kahea, in your first post, you identified yourself as "native Hawaiian." Yet above you identify yourself with various ethnic backgrounds. Is the only criteria for being "native Hawaiian" attendance at Kamehameha school? I am not being facetious, this is a sincere question. To me "native Hawaiian" means 100% Hawaiian and frankly I don't believe there are very many of those around. I bet you can find a little bit of British sailor in most every native Hawaiian background.

Aloha Matapule. Though I hesitate to get into this conversation because it includes discussion of "Hawaiian blood" and some may automatically assume that it makes me racist, I just wanted to quickly try and answer your question. I think a lot of people will have differing definitions of what it is to be "Hawaiian" or "n/Native Hawaiian" particularly since the U.S. has different definitions for us in terms of blood quantum (some entities require one to be "50%" Hawaiian Polynesian blood in order to be considered "n/Native Hawaiian"). But in my opinion, it is the presence of the native ancestry, the native blood, rather than the absence of all others, that makes one "n/Native Hawaiian." When I say that I am Native Hawaiian, I simply mean that I can trace my ancestry back to the Hawaiian Polynesians who lived in Hawaii both through documentation and my family's oral history (though I'll whole-heartedly admit that it does not go so far back as to trace my line to those who sailed from our "mythical" homeland of Hawaiki). Though I don't doubt it as a valid belief, I haven't met anyone yet who believes one needs to be "purely" Hawaiian of Polynesian descent in order to be considered "n/Native Hawaiian.

You are right, there are, sadly, relatively few left who can claim to be 100% "n/Native Hawaiian." It is the result of both inevitable progress, and tragic circumstance.

In order to attend Kamehameha, one needs to verify "n/Native Hawaiian" ancestry by documentation (birth certificates tracing Hawaiian blood back several generations) prior to acceptance into the school. Whereas many programs quantify the amount of "n/Native Hawaiian" blood necessary for participation, Kamehameha just requires that all students be [some amount of] "n/Native Hawaiian." In that way, it is inaccurate to say that attending Kamehameha makes you "n/Native Hawaiian," as there are unfortunately many "n/Native Hawaiians" who cannot attend. Rather, you are able to attend Kamehameha because you are "n/Native Hawaiian."

I know there will most likely be heated disagreements with what I've just said, and I can only say that this is my opinion. Everyone is entitled to take what they will and leave what they won't.

[matapule]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

since the U.S. has different definitions for us in terms of blood quantum (some entities require one to be "50%" Hawaiian Polynesian blood in order to be considered "n/Native Hawaiian"). But in my opinion, it is the presence of the native ancestry, the native blood, rather than the absence of all others, that makes one "n/Native Hawaiian."

Whoa! So it is some artificially manipulated number? Let's make it 100% then if we are going to manipulate a number. Oh heck, let's make it 50% and then you would still be excluded. Let's allow everyone to make up their own definition and that is where we are today. In other words, let's make it just enough for me to be included but the heck with everyone else. Hmmmm, what happened to the Aloha spirit?

I don't think that there is any argument that we all come from the same Homo sapiens gene pool. So that makes us all related, you and I. So, if I am related to you, does that make me one infinitesmally part Hawaiian? Do I have a stake in the "native Hawaiian" claim? What is more important, where my ancestors came from or who I am as a person, today? I don't know, these questions confuse me.

When I say that I am Native Hawaiian, I simply mean that I can trace my ancestry back to the Hawaiian Polynesians who lived in Hawaii both through documentation and my family's oral history (though I'll whole-heartedly admit that it does not go so far back as to trace my line to those who sailed from our "mythical" homeland of Hawaiki).

So are you saying that you are part of the migrant Polynesian group that overpowered the earlier inhabitants of what is now called the Hawaiian Islands? Because you were part of the dominant emergent group, that gives you special right to the Islands. Do you see where I'm going with this? How is that different than what the early European Colonists did when they supplanted the previous native occupants?

Kamehameha just requires that all students be [some amount of] "n/Native Hawaiian." In that way, it is inaccurate to say that attending Kamehameha makes you "n/Native Hawaiian," as there are unfortunately many "n/Native Hawaiians" who cannot attend. Rather, you are able to attend Kamehameha because you are "n/Native Hawaiian."

According to posters on the Kamehameha thread that is not true. Some 100% Anglos do attend. So does that make them native Hawaiians just because they attend?

Although I am 100% Anglo (I guess), I was made an official matapule (talking chief) by my noble, Fakatulolo, in an official kava ceremenoy in Tonga, that gives me special rights and priveleges in the Tongan culture. That makes me an official citizen of the Kingdom of Tonga. Does that give me some rights as an honorary Polynesian? Do I have a stake and claim for the mantle of Tongan? Does it make me a "special" person? No, it makes me a LUCKY person. Lucky to be a small part of the Polynesian culture that I so admire and cherish. You see, Kahea, we are proud of the same thing and we both want to see the Polynesian cultures flourish. What is the best way to accomplish that? Hawaiian Independence? I'm not sure.

I will leave you with this, hoku me'a (my friend). You are a law student. This is good practice for you to learn the art of contructive debate under fire. You are doing fine so far, remaining cool, but there are some gaps in your logic for which you will be skewered by an experienced, practiced attorney on perhaps a different subject in a differenet venue at some time in the future, but that's the way you learn. I am not an experienced, practiced attorney for the record.

BTW, I have some problems with your survey. If you are interested, send me a PM.

Monumanumonoia

[Menehune Man]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Jus' wanted to add link from this morning's newspaper.

Honolulu Advertiser

No personal comment at this time.

[matapule]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Will "native Hawaiians" issue an apology to the peoples that inhabited the islands prior to their arrival, that were essentially anihilated? Just wondering.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Will "native Hawaiians" issue an apology to the peoples that inhabited the islands prior to their arrival, that were essentially anihilated? Just wondering.

Are there any descendant-representatives of those peoples still around to receive said proposed apology?

[matapule]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Are there any descendant-representatives of those peoples still around to receive said proposed apology?

Perhaps some left in a diluted form, just like few 100% Hawaiians left. Are there any slaves left? I can think of one nation that probably owes my ancestors an apology. Will I get? No.

Isn't the point being an apology to recognize your past transgressions? If so, I hereby apologize to everyone that I or my ancestors may have intentionally or unintentionally hurt or harmed whether real or imagined. I'm sorry.

Let's get beyond racism.

[Random]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

Perhaps some left in a diluted form, just like few 100% Hawaiians left. Are there any slaves left? I can think of one nation that probably owes my ancestors an apology. Will I get? No.

And what nation owes you and your ancestor an apology?

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Native Hawaiian independence?

I have quite a mix of bloodlines in my own family tree; too complex to figure out who were the conquerors and who were the vanquished. However, had they not met in whatever historical context in which they did, I would not exist today.

Therefore, I neither desire nor request any apology or redress from any particular racial/ethnic/national group, for any past wrongs, actual or perceived, against my ancestors.

This does not negate anyone else's wish for an apology, mind you; it only reflects how I wish to resolve the issue on my own behalf.