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  • Re: Gun Control

    I must admit, I'm ignorant of the definition of "manslaughter" in Florida. If this link is really the instructions given to the jury, I don't think I would understand it any better. I guess that's why people are suppose to use a lawyer instead of representing themselves.

    Perhaps what I ultimately want is an in-depth story / documentary about how much turmoil there is in Zimmerman's life, even though he was found not guilty. A wake up call about the ownership and usage of firearms.

    On another note, here's one lawyer's critique about the prosecution's closing argument.
    "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
    "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
    "
    Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

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    • Re: Gun Control

      In interview Zimmerman's brother made it clear Martin was responsible for his own death. Zimmerman's attorneys said in interview that it was disgraceful the state even brought the case against Zimmerman. Also said if Zimmerman had been Black the case wouldn't have even been brought.
      Last edited by Kalalau; July 14, 2013, 02:07 AM.

      Comment


      • Re: Gun Control

        In this lawyer's analysis of the testimony, it seems the prosecutor's witnesses ended up supporting the defense's claim of self-defense (especially Jenna Lauer's cross examination).

        Shockingly, she was unable to identify Zimmerman, because of the severity of his injuries. This powerful testimony obviously strongly supported the defense’s theory of the case that Zimmerman had been the subject of a brutal aggravated assault by Martin, against which he had necessarily used deadly force in self-defense. With that statement Lauer had struck a heavy blow against the State’s theory of the case, of an innocent young black boy ruthless murdered, and in favor of the theory of the defense.
        She described the screams as those of a person in desperate need of help

        At that point O’Mara asked her, you mean, like the screams of a person who was being subjected to this? And he held up the photo of the blood back of Zimmerman’s head taken at the scene.
        O'Mara is the defense attorney.

        On re-direct we were treated to the astonishing efforts of de la Rionda to aggressively impeach his own witness.

        You couldn’t really see anything, could you? No.
        Rionda is the prosecutor.

        Finally, de la Rionda made perhaps the biggest blunder of the trial to date. He is perhaps the luckiest prosecutor in the country today that his mistake occurred outside the view of the jury.

        He concluded, somehow, that he had found some “social media” dirt on Lauer that he could use to discredit her and destroy her credibility.
        Lauer is Rionda's own witness.


        Yet you told us that you weren’t following Robert Zimmerman, didn’t you, asked de la Rionda triumphantly.

        Wait a minute, Lauer said. That says, “Follow”, not “Following”. That’s so I can follow him if I want to, it doesn’t say that I am following him. de la Rionda appeared confused.

        Lauer explained, “All this means is that Robert Zimmmerman is following ME, not that I’m following HIM.”
        All I can say is Rionda shouldn't contemplate becoming a defense attorney
        "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
        "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
        "
        Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

        Comment


        • Re: Gun Control

          The really relevant question isn't what would have happened if Zimmerman had been Black, but what would have happened if Martin had been white. Say, a rich white girl. A rich white girl getting followed by Zimmerman. She defends herself. When her defense begins to overcome Zimmerman he shoots her. If the result at trial would have been any different its not equal protection, is it. Say one of the girls kidnapped in Cleveland had resisted Castro and when her fighting started to overcome him, he shot her. Would our legal system reward him? Our legal system seems to say that resisting guys like Zimmerman or Castro is fundamentally wrong, an invitation to barf justifiable homicide.

          Comment


          • Re: Gun Control

            A Black defendant:


            (CNN) -- Saying he had no discretion under state law, a judge sentenced a Jacksonville, Florida, woman to 20 years in prison Friday for firing a warning shot in an effort to scare off her abusive husband.
            Marissa Alexander unsuccessfully tried to use Florida's controversial "stand your ground" law to derail the prosecution, but a jury in March convicted her of aggravated assault after just 12 minutes of deliberation.
            The case, which was prosecuted by the same state attorney who is handling the Trayvon Martin case, has gained the attention of civil rights leaders who say the African-American woman was persecuted because of her race.
            After the sentencing, Rep. Corrine Brown confronted State Attorney Angela Corey in the hallway, accusing her of being overzealous, according to video from CNN affiliate WJXT.
            "There is no justification for 20 years," Brown told Corey during an exchange frequently interrupted by onlookers. "All the community was asking for was mercy and justice," she said.
            Corey said she had offered Alexander a plea bargain that would have resulted in a three-year prison sentence, but Alexander chose to take the case to a jury trial, where a conviction would carry a mandatory sentence under a Florida law known as "10-20-life."

            Comment


            • Re: Gun Control

              I think the Zimmerman case most especially the verdict make the case real well for a resurrection of the Black Panthers. If the system won't respect Black people because its the right thing to do, maybe it will respect them out of fear of people packing guns. Looking at it this way, Martin was murdered because he was unarmed. No getting around it. I am sorry its that kind of world. Seriously, real sorry. But there's no sense pretending people are nice and that the justice system cares about non whites. Its a matter of survival. Arm the children.

              Comment


              • Re: Gun Control

                Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                The really relevant question isn't what would have happened if Zimmerman had been Black, but what would have happened if Martin had been white. Say, a rich white girl. A rich white girl getting followed by Zimmerman.
                Good question. Politics and public outcry definitely have an influence on our justice system, no doubt.

                I'm guessing the most effect it would have had on Zimmerman would have been he'd get arrested and charged or arrested, not charged, and released. That's mostly it.

                From what little I read, the police never arrested Zimmerman because his story lined up and there was no evidence to the contrary. I think lack of evidence of what happened before Martin was mounted on Zimmerman and punching him is what led to the not guilty verdict.

                A self defense lawyer Andrew Branca felt:

                When I took my first serious look at this case, some six or so months ago, and worked though the existing discovery file, I thought to myself, the State’s got nothing.
                From a political point of view, it's not surprising that the State sought prosecution, even if it didn't appear the State had much in the way of real evidence.

                After the State closed their case, and it was evident they didn't have any (evidence) aces up their sleeves, the Defense asked for an acquittal. The judge denied the request, which Branca felt showed the judge's bias.

                Then there's a story about a whistleblower in the State office claiming they were withholding evidence from the Defense.

                After all of this effort to nail Zimmerman, in the end the jury ended up declaring him innocent. I assume they felt the State didn't have enough real evidence.

                So if Martin was a rich white girl, yeah, there would have been an effect, but I don't know if it would have changed the final outcome.


                Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                A Black defendant:


                (CNN) -- Saying he had no discretion under state law, a judge sentenced a Jacksonville, Florida, woman to 20 years in prison Friday for firing a warning shot in an effort to scare off her abusive husband.
                From what little I've read about self defense law, firing a warning shot is a big no-no. This is the problem with people paying money for guns but not paying money for good training; specifically legal training.

                Often times the way the legal system works doesn't match the way the average citizen thinks it does. If you go into court without legal representation, you're going in blind. If you buy a firearm for self defense without knowledge of self defense law, you're going in blind.

                If you had a video of a woman being attacked by a man, and there was a green and red light to indicate when she was legally allowed to shoot him, the light could be flashing back and forth, second by second. It's that crazy when a person is and isn't allowed to shoot in self defense.

                One of the things you learn is to say very little to the police, until you have an attorney present. Anything you can and say will be used against you (and it can't be used to help you). The police can lie to you, but you can't lie to the police.

                I don't know what self defense legal training Marissa Alexander received, but I'm gonna bet she didn't have much.

                I doubt she even watched this video.


                Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                Martin was murdered because he was unarmed. No getting around it.
                That's a bit of a stretch, in my opinion. In the end, the State couldn't find enough hard evidence.


                I am sorry its that kind of world. Seriously, real sorry. But there's no sense pretending people are nice and that the justice system cares about non whites. Its a matter of survival. Arm the children.
                I agree we live in a bad world, but I don't think firearms is the first thing we should arm children with.
                Last edited by MyopicJoe; July 14, 2013, 09:26 PM.
                "By concealing your desires, you may trick people into being cruel about the wrong thing." --Steven Aylett, Fain the Sorcerer
                "You gotta get me to the tall corn." --David Mamet, Spartan
                "
                Amateurs talk technology, professionals talk conditions." --(unknown)

                Comment


                • Re: Gun Control

                  Maybe we have missed the point about a jury of peers. I believe it was an all white jury that approved of Zimmerman's murder. It was an all white jury that let off the 4 LA cops videotaped beating Rodney King thereby causing riots that claimed over 50 lives and cost billions. A lawyer friend told about a case he'd worked on where a Black defendant had several alibi witnesses who placed him dozens of miles from the scene of a crime, but they were all Black and another all white jury chose to believe they were all lying and convicted the guy who went away for decades until DNA evidence proved he was always innocent. Wouldn't it be nice if those jurors could go to jail for their evil verdicts? I am not going to say that all whites are racists, but there may be a tendency in that direction and these problems might be taken care of with segregated juries. Whites don't seem to be up to the requirement of being open minded and impartial, we seem to have a poor track record. Maybe thats part of why so many Black youths are in prison. So why not just be reasonable, when we want a jury of peers, get a jury of peers, Blacks judging Blacks and whites judging whites. Fairness and impartiality is a high requirement and evidence is strong that we are not up to it in terms of race.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Gun Control

                    Racism can be subtle. It can be something we are not even aware of. Here's an example. A bi racial couple throws parties. He, Black, she, white. They invite their friends. These are intelligent aware people not likely to be bigots, but the Black people party in one room, the whites in another. Nobody is being hostile or unfriendly, I think it just comes down to comfort, you are comfortable with whats familiar. Its possible these all white juries, the people on them consider themselves open minded, but still tend to give a Black person, a Black defendant, a bit more scrutiny or suspicion or doubt than they would a white defendant, and not even be aware they are doing it. So to be fair it would seem like having exclusively white or exclusively Black juries is a mistake, it seems like it would be a sensible thing to have juries ethnically mixed. I don't think this is as much of a problem in Hawai'i as it is on the mainland, but the record seems pretty clear that it is a problem on the mainland.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Gun Control

                      Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                      I believe it was an all white jury that approved of Zimmerman's murder.
                      No such thing happened. The jury decided that Zimmerman was not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Given the photos of Zimmerman's injuries, I don't think they had a choice. An all black jury would surely have done exactly the same.
                      Greg

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                      • Re: Gun Control

                        Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                        I believe it was an all white jury ...
                        Popping in briefly because I really dislike seeing these kinds of errors continuing to circulate without correction. One of the jurors was described as "black or Hispanic" during jury selection.

                        Back to lurking now...

                        Comment


                        • Re: Gun Control

                          Hispanic. 5 whites, one hispanic. It might have been nice to have had at least one Black on the jury, maybe impart a little perspective. "Peers", that sort of stuff. Racism can be real subtle. Seems like Zimmerman could have been an example even though he used the n. word and swore a lot on the tapes but he probably thought of himself as a perfectly reasonable open minded fair man. Probably coincided with how the jurors thought. Too bad Martin tried to defend himself. He should have known his place, maybe Zimmerman would have left him alone if he hadn't tried to act like a white man would have under the same circumstances. I wonder if Zimmerman will chalk up some more victims now that he's been freed. Maybe one of the jurors kids will attract his interest, or one of his defense attorneys kids. A nice stable sort to be armed and lurking and pretending to be a cop. We can all rest easier. We need more Zimmermans.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Gun Control

                            Seems like the case was made to fail. Just like selecting an all white jury in the Rodney King beating case although these guys did chose one Hispanic, from Zimmerman's ethnic background. Well, they got their wish. American justice disgraces, humiliates itself again. They see no problem with convincing millions of people of the unfairness, the bias, the prejudice, the bigotry of the system. There was some quote from Jefferson about fearing for the country if there is a just God. Amen.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Gun Control

                              Seems the Zimmerman jury was filled with a bunch of dolts, every time you hear one of them speak the kid was as doomed in court as he was that rainy night.
                              https://www.facebook.com/Bobby-Ingan...5875444640256/

                              Comment


                              • Re: Gun Control

                                Originally posted by Kalalau View Post
                                Seems like the case was made to fail.
                                Four of the six jurors were gun nuts. It wasn't Zimmerman who was on trial, it was gun control that was on trial and the jury was packed with gun nuts. Even the prosecutor admitted he was a gun nut.

                                And now, apparently, Zimmerman gets his gun back. I think anyone who encounters Zimmerman now should be able to claim "great fear of their life" and claim self-defense.

                                STRICT GUN CONTROL NOW!
                                Peace, Love, and Local Grindz

                                People who form FIRM opinions with so little knowledge only pretend to be open-minded. They select their facts like food from a buffet. David R. Dow

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