Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

[joshuatree]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Mahalo for your questions Joshuatree.



It's not that I think that life would be some fantasy world where every native still lived home. I do believe that less would have been displaced if their country was still in tact. I don't believe that it would be getting to the point it is now where more Hawaiians are living on the CONUS than in their ancestral homelands. I think it's a sad day when any place starts to lose their indigenous peoples.



I can't speak for every Hawaiian/part Hawaiian out there. But my mana'o on this is that the majority wouldn't want to kick out non natives to begin with.

What if Hawaiians were given some islands back? Some could probably live with that and be quite happy while others wouldn't step down until there is complete restoration of the kingdom.



Just because it's a trend in the CONUS doesn't mean it should happen to the Kanaka Maoli, does it? I don't get why indigenous people have to conform and go through exactly what everyone else in the western world does. I don't understand the "everyone else is doing it, you need to" mentality. Wouldn't it be a beautiful thing if Hawai`i worked to preserve the ways of life of their own native people? I don't see it as entitlement, I see it as allowing a people native to this place (many of you love) to live where they belong. So many claim to love the 'aina, it's culture, it's traditions, it's people, but soon enough gonna be no more Hawaiians there to be kumu or to live in a traditional way.

Hey LK, thanks for answering my questions.

Regarding the trend, no, it doesn't mean it should happen to Kanaka Maoli but what I was trying to point out is that this trend isn't necessarily a CONUS trend. It's happening all over the world, even in the non-western world. All I'm trying to say is, it seems be an overly generalized blanket statement to say the present day realities and struggles (two income households, etc) is purely a creation of the western world. Sometimes, there are world forces that simply no particular race is driving but all end up bending to.

I know there is no such solution that satisfies everyone. Never did in the past, don't expect it to happen in the future. But again, based on present day realities, I would think giving back some of the islands under native Hawaiian control and having a similar arrangement like what many native American tribes have would be the best compromise. Once that is set up, there should be set a time frame for all the current federal assisted programs for native Hawaiians to end. Because at that point, it should be considered reparations as complete and also the playing field is leveled. Hopefully over that time frame, healing has been done. Anyway, that's just my $.02.

[Lei K]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

I know there is no such solution that satisfies everyone. Never did in the past, don't expect it to happen in the future. But again, based on present day realities, I would think giving back some of the islands under native Hawaiian control and having a similar arrangement like what many native American tribes have would be the best compromise. Once that is set up, there should be set a time frame for all the current federal assisted programs for native Hawaiians to end. Because at that point, it should be considered reparations as complete and also the playing field is leveled. Hopefully over that time frame, healing has been done. Anyway, that's just my $.02.

I appreciate your mana'o, your open mind, and how polite you are. Mahalo so very much.

[Keanu]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

I'd like to thank Tim for his patience.

I haven't forgotten my promise to respond to his presumption. I'm working on it.

[timkona]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Thanks Keanu. I also have Mr. Abercrombie working on the same answer. If he responds, I will certainly share it with you.

At this point, I have a feeling that there may be a viable, logical, justifiable answer to the question of why it is that some Hawaiians are naturally inferior to other races and therefore deserving of entitlement programs rooted in race based selection criteria. Otherwise, why would Keanu be working on it so hard? Why would Mr. Abercrombie promote such an idea?

Yessireeee.......the great and mighty Timkona is on the verge of having his mind changed about a particular subject. In this case, the natural and/or genetic inferiority of a race based solely upon their pedigree, to wit, a notion that I do not presently embrace.

But if it be the case, then it is world shaking news along the lines of Cro-Magnon vs. Neanderthal.

I am actually excited a little. (and not in a sarcastic way)

[Mililani]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

The republicans are hypocrites for claiming that special legal privileges for Native Hawaiians are unconstitutional. The whole damn U.S. annexation of Hawaii was unconstitutional.The Newlands Resolution, the illegal act which "provided" for the annexation of the Hawaiian Islands to the United States and signed by a corrupt U.S. President was itself unconstitutional. I challenge anyone to cite the provision within the framework of the United States Constitution that enables the U.S. government to annex a foreign territory (which Hawaii was at the time) to the United States by joint resolution.

Now THIS is what I would like to see brought to the floor! We don't need no friggin special priviledges. The US has already acknowledged the wrong they've done, now its time for them to do something about it! We are still fighting this injustice.

Why is that? Because they don't care. None of what's happened to the hawaiian people matter to them!

[timkona]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

We don't need no friggin special priviledges.

That's what I've been saying. Finally, a voice of reason. Clearly, Mililani is one who has made a success of her life. Good on ya !!

[Keanu]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Thanks Keanu. I also have Mr. Abercrombie working on the same answer. If he responds, I will certainly share it with you.

At this point, I have a feeling that there may be a viable, logical, justifiable answer to the question of why it is that some Hawaiians are naturally inferior to other races and therefore deserving of entitlement programs rooted in race based selection criteria. Otherwise, why would Keanu be working on it so hard? Why would Mr. Abercrombie promote such an idea?

Yessireeee.......the great and mighty Timkona is on the verge of having his mind changed about a particular subject. In this case, the natural and/or genetic inferiority of a race based solely upon their pedigree, to wit, a notion that I do not presently embrace.

But if it be the case, then it is world shaking news along the lines of Cro-Magnon vs. Neanderthal.

I am actually excited a little. (and not in a sarcastic way)

Tim, don't get your hopes up too much. You see I don't share your views that Hawaiians are inferior. The fact of the matter is that these programs have been in place for years to assure that Hawaiians would always have a place in their ancestral homelands. Those like Princess Bernice Pauahi Bishop and Prince Jonah Kuhio Kalanianaole had incredible foresight. They wanted to assure that their people would be able to survive an ever changing Hawai'i. I asked you a question as to what you would do with the DHHL and the Kamehameha Schools. Your answers are what I will respond to. I've been looking at various statistics and find your suggestions not only incredibly naive and short-sighted but unfeasible as well. It is to be quite frank, completely inane. You seek to solve one (self perceived) problem by creating another, and seek to remove one (self perceived) form of racism for another. I know a lot of hard working Hawaiians who simply would not be able to afford a 600 thousand dollar home. This has nothing to do with inferiority. Hawaiians didn't drive up the cost of housing and real estate.The ties we forge as Hawaiians bind us to the land, not our wallets. I'm actually disappointed in you Tim. It's gotten to the point where If I gave you a penny for your thoughts, I'd expect change.

[TuNnL]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

I have a feeling that there may be a viable, logical, justifiable answer to the question of why it is that some Hawaiians are naturally inferior to other races and therefore deserving of entitlement programs rooted in race based selection criteria. Otherwise, why would Keanu be working on it so hard? Why would Mr. Abercrombie promote such an idea?

*sigh* Tim, you continue to present the same close-minded, condescending attitude to the kanaka maoli people. Native Hawaiians are not necessarily naturally inferior to other races, but that doesn’t mean they are not deserving of entitlement programs. On the same token, you also err in your assumption that these programs are “rooted in race.”

Native Hawaiians are entitled to reparations from the federal government because of the special trust relationship that exists between them as beneficiaries of a political entity (the Hawaiian Kingdom) and the U.S. government, as detailed in the Hawaiian Homelands Commission Act of 1921. It’s important to recognize that the United Nations never formally recognized the United States’ annexation (which was and remains illegal, under the U.S. Constitution) of the islands.

Mililani’s point that the U.S. formally apologized for committing wrongdoing, only further reinforces the legitimacy of Native Hawaiian claims.

Again, Tim, you arrogantly point the finger at any aboriginal descendants who are trying to tap any available resources to preserve what is left of their home and culture. Yet why is it that you who feel so strongly that these laws should be stricken from the books, are not suing the federal government for removal of these laws?

Could it because you are a typical conceited haole more concerned about “putting people in their place” then “taking appropriate action?” No, I suspect it is because you are really feigning ignorance and are trying to impose your “white culture or no culture” mentality on anyone who happens to disagree — through whatever means accomplishes that end.

You know you are wrong, so you frame the debate in such a way that it misses the point entirely.

[timkona]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

No way can you pin me down as to say that I think of any race as superior or inferior to any other. No Way. Sheesh, that's the argument you guys (Keanu, Abercrombie, Tunnl, et al) are trying to make.

My argument is simply that race plays no part in the role of poverty, ignorance, or potential. There are handicapped folks of all races. And there are heads of state of all races. And there are homeless of all races. And there are millionaires of all races. And truck drivers, professors, thieves, politicians, good students, bad students, loners, gadflys, priests, and boat builders.

Sounds to me like the argument is singularly about reparations, where Hawaiians are then equated, in a political not cultural way, to Native American Indians, Alaskans, Guamanians, Puerto Ricans, hell......half the damned planet if you go back far enough over the last 300 odd years. We been conquesting the hell out of the planet, like the Borg on Star Trek, except nothing is ever organized or "fixed" when we leave.

Seems as though our choices are to turn back the clock, or to set a time limit for reparations. After several generations, things change. Man's conquest of man is the history of the world. I'm not sorry for something I am not responsible for. The punishment of the conquester by the conquested, in the form of reparations, is a new idea in the history of humankind. Unfortunately, the punishment is meted out upon those who may not have had a hand in the act. Nobody chides The Kingdom of Hawaii for not defending herself stronger. But yet, in today's world, people who refer to themselves as the victims really had no dog in the fight, same as I led no missionary expeditions to conquer Hawaii.

It therefore leads to the question of how did ANY Hawaiian end up with some land if the monarcy, at one time owned it all? And if the monarchy decided to give land to the people (Mahele), how come some people didn't get any? So if ANY Hawaiian got some, then how come some Hawaiians don't have any?

Just like reservations. You got some Indians that own, and some that don't. How did the renters get to a point where they don't own.

Poverty knows no race. Dole out the land on many different basis - the poor, the unable, etc. etc. But don't bring race to the matter. Racial separation is an anachronistic concept, born of egomaniacal ignorance, which is the best defense, culturally speaking, for any culture under attack by the changing of the times. Easier to preserve a culture by inclusion rather than exclusion. The US vs THEM mentality is so destructive.

[Keanu]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

No way can you pin me down as to say that I think of any race as superior or inferior to any other. No Way. Sheesh, that's the argument you guys (Keanu, Abercrombie, Tunnl, et al) are trying to make.

My argument is simply that race plays no part in the role of poverty, ignorance, or potential. There are handicapped folks of all races. And there are heads of state of all races. And there are homeless of all races. And there are millionaires of all races. And truck drivers, professors, thieves, politicians, good students, bad students, loners, gadflys, priests, and boat builders.

Sounds to me like the argument is singularly about reparations, where Hawaiians are then equated, in a political not cultural way, to Native American Indians, Alaskans, Guamanians, Puerto Ricans, hell......half the damned planet if you go back far enough over the last 300 odd years. We been conquesting the hell out of the planet, like the Borg on Star Trek, except nothing is ever organized or "fixed" when we leave.

Seems as though our choices are to turn back the clock, or to set a time limit for reparations. After several generations, things change. Man's conquest of man is the history of the world. I'm not sorry for something I am not responsible for. The punishment of the conquester by the conquested, in the form of reparations, is a new idea in the history of humankind. Unfortunately, the punishment is meted out upon those who may not have had a hand in the act. Nobody chides The Kingdom of Hawaii for not defending herself stronger. But yet, in today's world, people who refer to themselves as the victims really had no dog in the fight, same as I led no missionary expeditions to conquer Hawaii.

It therefore leads to the question of how did ANY Hawaiian end up with some land if the monarcy, at one time owned it all? And if the monarchy decided to give land to the people (Mahele), how come some people didn't get any? So if ANY Hawaiian got some, then how come some Hawaiians don't have any?

Just like reservations. You got some Indians that own, and some that don't. How did the renters get to a point where they don't own.

Poverty knows no race. Dole out the land on many different basis - the poor, the unable, etc. etc. But don't bring race to the matter. Racial separation is an anachronistic concept, born of egomaniacal ignorance, which is the best defense, culturally speaking, for any culture under attack by the changing of the times. Easier to preserve a culture by inclusion rather than exclusion. The US vs THEM mentality is so destructive.

Tim, you live in a fantasy world. Tell Alice I said hello next time you have your tea party with her.

My argument has nothing to do with perceived inferiority/superiority of races. That's your argument or at least the one that you are trying to make. It's unfortunate that you lack the ability to see anything but your skewed perpsective. I know I'm wasting my time but at least I can be content with the fact that all the statistics I've looked at thus far blows your thoughts clean out of the water. I will gladly post those numbers when I finish my research.

[LikaNui]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Could it because you are a typical conceited haole more concerned about “putting people in their place” then “taking appropriate action?”

Racist remarks -- by anybody -- do absolutely nothing to further anyone's cause and have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads.

[waioli kai]

hypocriticUS special privilege$ = hypocriticUS entitlement$

. hypocriticUS special privilege$ = hypocriticUS entitlement$

---We don't need no friggin special priviledges.-- tkona 139614

So now it's "special priviledges" instead of "entitlements"? One can take that to mean that tkona has understood and agrees with wkai's previous posts re: 'entitlements', and, he is hereby acknowledging the fact that he himself is recipient to entitlement$

; therefore ?, tkona was suffocading under his indefensible habit of putting-down people [especially Hawaiians who are such an unlucky people such to have to be hosting (albeit involuntarily to varying degrees) on their own lands individuals whose hypocriticUS ideology is so offensive toward Hawai'ians?

yet he proudly proclaims/infers when not alleges that his economic standing, relative to Hawai'ians or anyone else in the world, is not a consequence of or a result of, something which can be rationally construed to be "special privileges" afforded him.

[timkona]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Hey Waioli, wasn't me who made the special priveledges quote. It was Mililani. I was just pointing out the rationality of the statement, and the fact that I agree.

I been trying to think of entitlements that I have received based upon the color of my skin, or the pedigree of my parents. Have not come up with any yet.

Imagine any kind of entitlement given to modern American males, but not to others?? That would be volatile in today's PC world.

[Leo Lakio]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

a typical conceited haole

Racist remarks -- by anybody -- do absolutely nothing to further anyone's cause and have absolutely no place on Hawaii Threads.

You know, I read TuNnL's post shortly before heading out to a meeting, and knew that I would have to respond to these words when I returned - and LikaNui beat me to it.

When you use a phrase like TuNnL's unfortunate words quoted above, it's as racist as saying "all Hawaiians (insert behavior or belief here.)" And it damages the argument being made. I would hope we all remain aware of our personal biases, and make effort to keep the discussion more civil.

[Miulang]

Re: Mr. Abercrombie has the floor

Imagine any kind of entitlement given to modern American males, but not to others?? That would be volatile in today's PC world.

American white males typically will earn more than any women with comparable skills and abilities in the US, and this has been true even with the advent of the Equal Rights Amendment. That is the "entitlement" males have in this country, even though many US single parent households are headed by women, as are the majority of small businesses. So putting aside race issues, there continues to be a gender discrepancy in wages, too, although some corporations are now using "pay for performance" measurements in figuring out bonuses.

Miulang