SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

[joshuatree]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

For what?
What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?

How about H1, H2, & H3? Was it not a US sub that provided electricity for Kauai after Iniki? Or wasn't it National Guard equipment transported by the SF to Maui to assist in storm clean up?

Incidentally, this removes any doubt that the two Superferrys were military prototypes financed with military-industrial complex cash (and state taxpayers).

Uhm....how?

[Nords]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

Was it not a US sub that provided electricity for Kauai after Iniki?

Not quite. That one's starting to gain urban-legend status.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08697.htm
http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2005...ulf-coast.html

It was the USS INDIANAPOLIS after Iwa, but that "reverse shore power" would've been limited to a mere 1600 amps and would've required overriding some interlocks. It was also a politically dangerous decision that would've required CNO/Naval Reactors permission. (Admiral Rickover was absolutely livid over the prospect of using military nuclear plants for civilian power but he'd retired earlier in 1982 and his input was no longer welcome.) In the end the plan was to just quietly provide a power boost to allow Kauai to restart their electric utility's generators, but another support vessel was standing by for that purpose so INDY power wasn't needed.

I was at COMSUBPAC Operations for the Iniki port egress. The subject of sending a submarine to Kauai came up again that morning and was met with howls of protest. We barely got everyone out of the harbor without running into each other, let alone routing someone over to Nawiliwili before we had any idea what the hurricane had done to the channel. IIRC an amphibious surface ship was also nominated for Kauai support that week, but by that time we had our hands full trying to get everyone back into port without running into each other.

That was an ugly week. Spouse was seven months pregnant at home so no way was I going to hide at HQ until the storm had passed. I didn't get out of the ops bunker until about 11 AM and the drive home was very exciting, but luckily no one else was on H-1 so it wasn't a problem if I was using two or three lanes with every wind gust. By that time I'd been up for about 30 hours, so I slept through Iniki's passage and then went back in that evening to start the return to port.

Funny how everyone complains about having the military in their backyard during peacetime.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

How about H1, H2, & H3? Was it not a US sub that provided electricity for Kauai after Iniki? Or wasn't it National Guard equipment transported by the SF to Maui to assist in storm clean up?

Freeways? We needed the US military to build us freeways?
Sub - debunked.
We couldn't handle that in-state without the military? If not, that's pathetic and risky.

Funny how everyone complains about having the military in their backyard during peacetime.

We should be worrying about an invasion?

[joshuatree]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

Freeways? We needed the US military to build us freeways?
Sub - debunked.
We couldn't handle that in-state without the military? If not, that's pathetic and risky.

Ron, I did not say we needed the US military to build us some freeways. But you did ask what has the US military contributed. Without their need to connect their bases, I would have like to see where we would come up with the funds for the other 80% of the costs for the H1, H2, and H3. There's a reason why they're named as interstates despite them not connecting to any other state.

Sub debunked but Nords did say there was a plan to use a sub to help Kauai kickstart their powerplants. And you left out the National Guard's contribution on Maui. Yes, you can say civilians could do the same job but all I am pointing out is what the US military has contributed.

Not quite. That one's starting to gain urban-legend status.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/08697.htm
http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2005...ulf-coast.html

It was the USS INDIANAPOLIS after Iwa, but that "reverse shore power" would've been limited to a mere 1600 amps and would've required overriding some interlocks. It was also a politically dangerous decision that would've required CNO/Naval Reactors permission. (Admiral Rickover was absolutely livid over the prospect of using military nuclear plants for civilian power but he'd retired earlier in 1982 and his input was no longer welcome.) In the end the plan was to just quietly provide a power boost to allow Kauai to restart their electric utility's generators, but another support vessel was standing by for that purpose so INDY power wasn't needed.

I was at COMSUBPAC Operations for the Iniki port egress. The subject of sending a submarine to Kauai came up again that morning and was met with howls of protest. We barely got everyone out of the harbor without running into each other, let alone routing someone over to Nawiliwili before we had any idea what the hurricane had done to the channel. IIRC an amphibious surface ship was also nominated for Kauai support that week, but by that time we had our hands full trying to get everyone back into port without running into each other.

That was an ugly week. Spouse was seven months pregnant at home so no way was I going to hide at HQ until the storm had passed. I didn't get out of the ops bunker until about 11 AM and the drive home was very exciting, but luckily no one else was on H-1 so it wasn't a problem if I was using two or three lanes with every wind gust. By that time I'd been up for about 30 hours, so I slept through Iniki's passage and then went back in that evening to start the return to port.

Funny how everyone complains about having the military in their backyard during peacetime.

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Nonetheless, it appears a sub could have been used to help Kauai restart their powerplants right?

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

We couldn't handle that in-state without the military? If not, that's pathetic and risky.

Ron, I did not say we needed the US military to build us some freeways. But you did ask what has the US military contributed. Without their need to connect their bases, I would have like to see where we would come up with the funds for the other 80% of the costs for the H1, H2, and H3. There's a reason why they're named as interstates despite them not connecting to any other state.

Sub debunked but Nords did say there was a plan to use a sub to help Kauai kickstart their powerplants. And you left out the National Guard's contribution on Maui. Yes, you can say civilians could do the same job but all I am pointing out is what the US military has contributed.

When I asked the question it was knowing well there are contrubutions pro and con the military are responsible for in whole or part.
But were they essential?
A smarter plan to limit cars and supporting a great rail system early on would have benefitted Oahu much better than promoting freeways and car sales.

Great that the Navy provided some help. A super ferry would be better than a sub most probably and should have been here long ago.

I did address Maui, see at top.

But Hawaii has most always been lacking in preservation, preparedness, and innovative thinking, to our detriment. Thus allowing the military an inroad for things we otherwise may have done well without.

[joshuatree]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

I did address Maui, see at top.

Noted, thanks.

When I asked the question it was knowing well there are contrubutions pro and con the military are responsible for in whole or part.
But were they essential?

I was merely answering the original question.

"What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?"

[cyleet99]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

I'm cheering on a ferry, any ferry...not necessarily the military.

If Hawai`i wants to provide for itself more readily without relying on the outside world, interisland transport for goods and services needs to diversify.

I guess we could use large canoes and sail power.

[Nords]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

Thank you for the detailed explanation. Nonetheless, it appears a sub could have been used to help Kauai restart their powerplants right?

In the same manner that any of us could drive our cars over there, help them hook up a set of jumper cables, and rev our engine while they tried to crank their starters.

The military's pretty experienced at disaster relief-- medical personnel, food, water, labor-- no problem. Unloading a bunch of generators on the pier and getting them to where they need to be-- fine. Spouse had a Navy Reserve billet as a military liaison to the state civil defense and FEMA staffs, and hers was just one of three billets in the state. Those guys went on active duty for exercises and emergencies. When the civil authorities ask for military help there's a whole avalanche of transportation, materials, & labor. Submarines aren't on the list. They could be specifically requested, of course, but there are so many bigger & better things to ask for.

Using a naval vessel to power a civilian utility has been the "third rail" of the naval nuclear power community for over 50 years, and overriding a bunch of interlocks to make it happen is technically difficult & physically dangerous. Once INDY got over there and swapped technical info with the utility's staff I bet everybody backed off and waited for a shipment of generators. I've melted & blown up my share of military electrical equipment over the years and I doubt even the cowboys were willing to "give it a try".

When HECO lost power after the lightning strike they managed to restart their plants all by themselves. Hopefully every other state utility company can do the same for themselves by now. Diesel generators are a lot cheaper-- and probably faster-- than military assistance.

Eisenhower created the interstate highway system during the Cold War specifically as military infrastructure. States weren't obligated to participate but nobody wanted to see California other states grabbing all the federal funding. For example, Hawaii is one of the few states to have a waiver allowing our "interstate" highways to not have a straight & flat one-mile stretch in every five to provide for military aircraft emergency runways. (I don't think the MILSPEC includes pothole-free, but that's a different thread.) States don't have to build interstates, of course, but a fundamental Constitutional shift has been the states giving the federal govt some degree of power in exchange for a share of the tax revenue.

The military may be a noisy, messy, poorly-behaved, and even dangerous tenant to have on your property-- and insurance is expensive if it's never used-- but they're both good to have around during an emergency.

Speaking of tenants: the best tenants we've ever had in our rental have been military families. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but at least they rarely get laid off or have trouble taking care of the place.

[craigwatanabe]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

For what?
What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades that has greatly benefited the state other than $ from troop's pockets?

Massive polluters, stolen lands, lethal residuals from explosives, remaining ordinence waiting to kill/maim. What's to love?

Tax dollars, second largest industry in this state, retail spending. And the military isn't as bad as you state. Sure they pollute, but so does our construction and tourism industries. Stole lands? No our federal government stole the lands not the military. And all the talk about explosives, remaining ordinance...when was the last time a local resident was blown up or maimed walking around the city of Honolulu or anywhere there can walk around right now? NEVER...that was the last time someone was hurt with unexploded military ordinance.

What has the military done for Hawaii in the last few decades? Well for one thing my boy is in the US Marines right now and he is being taxed at both the state and federal level. His state tax dollars go into the State's General Fund like all local boys and gals who enter the service. What has the military done for Hawaii ever? They've been there in times of natural disasters, they've helped local communities with playgrounds. They do more than just protect our freedoms, they are in our communities, in our retail establishments, and in the general public. The military is made up of people like you and me with one difference, their job is more demanding than yours.

They take your crap and protect that ass for which your crap comes out of.

[Ron Whitfield]

OK...

...take the $ and emotion out of your reply, and what's left?

[helen]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

Assuming that the Army gets these ships and base some of them here in Hawaii, then what?

The Army is not going run these ships as a regular scheduled ferry service between the islands.

[Ron Whitfield]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

The Army is not going run these ships as a regular scheduled ferry service between the islands.

What precident is there to such diversity?
Other than possible emergency relief/rescue actions, I don't see the military using their high tech vessels for anything 'civil'.

[Mike_Lowery]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

Assuming that the Army gets these ships and base some of them here in Hawaii, then what?

The Army is not going run these ships as a regular scheduled ferry service between the islands.

Then the Strykers tear up the islands!

[Random]

Re: SuperFerry out - ArmyFerry in

I say ... let the North Koreans take over ... or blow us off the face of the earth.

That way nobody wins, including the US and Hawaiians.

Armageddon sounds a lot better nowadays.

Besides, when disaster strikes, we get plenny (albeit small) fishing boats.

[joshuatree]

Re: OK...

...take the $ and emotion out of your reply, and what's left?

Hmm...."They've been there in times of natural disasters, they've helped local communities with playgrounds."???