Meaning of the Word 'Haole'?

[dick]

Too many times have I been the receiver of "haole go home," despite my being a fourth-generation caucasian here in Hawaii. Where am I supposed to go - back to Maui? It never fails, I'll go somewhere, and people will ask me, "eh, where you from?" and I dutifully answer, "Uh, Maui." And then I get "No, originally!" And I'm like, "Uh, Maui." Yeah, I'm white as a sheet, and speak proper English (although fluent in pidgin, I prefer not to use it). Everyone I meet thinks I'm from Seattle or somewhere. Once I get to talking with people, however, they are totally cool with me. Half of me is with them -- here's yet another fricken' haole -- but the other half of me is like, dude, you people (and I use that phrase for a reason) are gonna be thought of as slack-jaws forever if you keep up that attitude. Hawaii is Hawaii, and it's a great place, that's why I returned here after living away for so long, but the thought processes here are so backwards sometimes, it's worse than a trailer park. Hawaii has so much potential, yet lacks so much.

[Mocha]

It's unfortunate that some people are catagorized by the color of their skin. And here in Hawaii although we pride ourselves as being a melting pot of different ethnicities...racial bias happens. The incidents don't always come into the forefront, some people never mention it but it happens. Shame on those who practise this. And choosing to speak proper English is not a crime. :(

[aleno]

No matter where you live in this country, you'll find discrimination. I live on the mainland and the local people here have problems with tourist. They just wish they would keep on the I-5 and go to somewhere else. But you got those in business who depend on the money coming in. If Hawaii is bringing in so much money...then where is all that money going? I mean if tourism is bringing in money then where is the money going? Here in this community they say tourism generates half the budget but they still want to raise taxes. My neighbor says the money generated by tourism is going into trying to attract big business's and taking farm land and building a hundred new house's. It's a shame but they call it progress.

[Krash Kolohe]

Food for Thought:

“In Hawaii I received a new name, one that
defined me in ways I did not want to accept.

I came to be known as a haole, a term that
Hawaiians have applied to white-skinned
foreigners since the arrival of the British
sea captain James Cook in 1778.

At first they welcomed Cook as a god
and believed his ships came to the islands
on the winds of Lono, but his incessant and
arrogant demands for provisions soon made
him appear considerably less than divine.

His men took the women they wanted and
shot anyone who got in their way. The following
year Cook was bludgeoned to death on a beach
on the big island of Hawaii.

To be haole, therefore, is to participate in a
less than proud heritage of cultural arrogance,
racial prejudice and sexism dating back to the
early European explorers and traders, the sugar planters,
even some of the missionaries, and the large businesses
that would eventually join to form the Big Five.

The word haole, perhaps not inappropriately,
means "without breath, wind or spirit";
a colorless, paste-white absence of spirit and feeling,
an inability to appreciate the. land and the dignity
of its people.

This name challenges the presumed superiority
of white Western thinking, with its tendency to
objectify and oppress. Yet to be able to recognize
oneself as haole is also to be open to repentance,
and subsequently to anew wholeness.

To accept a new name, especially from those
whom one may have oppressed, is also to
entertain a new way of being.” --

Belden C. Lane is professor of
Theological Studies and American Studies
at Saint Louis University, St. Louis, Missouri

[Karen]

undefined
I had been told that the word "haole" meant foreigner originally, and in reality, but that now it means "caucasian." I am in my eleventh year of living on Oahu, and am a caucasian with dark brown hair and eyes. I am a native Texan, and have come to realize that what is called Aloha in Hawaii exists in Texas, but is called "Southern Hospitality." It appears to be the very same thing.

Texas and Hawaii have something else in common, and that is that both states were sovereign countries/nations long, long ago. No wonder both are very proud of their land, and heritage.

I don't mind being called a haole when it isn't slung in an ugly manner, but I prefer to be called that by a Native Hawaiian. I think it a bit odd if I am called that by someone that also couldn't attend the Kamehameha Schools, not having a bit of native blood in them, for they,too, were once foreigners to this land, if no native blood.

I have encountered a bit of racism here, but I have made some precious native Hawaiian friends, and we feel a kindred spirit. We help each other, hug a lot, give each other gifts, and pray for each other.

There are good and bad people in every state. There are some precious souls here, and in my native Texas.

I do not understand the history of these islands because I hear differing stories, but the man above knows all, and I care about and pray for justice, whatever that is, in these islands.

ABout the over crowding, this is a huge issue, and prices. I have dear friends that are native Hawaiian, and two of their six kids have moved to las Vegas, gotten jobs, are having kids and now buying houses, not returning to these islands, leaving their hearts here, but living on the mainland where they can afford a better standard of living. This is sad, and I do relate, because we are here because of hubby's job, a good one, and cannot yet return home, because this job that he loves and is so good at, isn't available in Texas, not yet, anyway.

Least I ramble, I will hush. Thanks for any replies.

[Krash Kolohe]

Back to basics...

Ha = breath of life
ole= No

Haole = None breathers.

This is fact. The native Hawaiians literally breathed
on each other as they greeted one another. Taking
in that persons breath was a co-mingling with that
person's spirit. Native American Indians and the
Native Eskimos did a similiar greeting. For the
Eskimos it was rubbing noses while breathing in
the other person's spirit.

Western form of greeting was to extend the
right hand ( the sword hand) to show you were
a friend and did not have a weapon in your
hand. That's how the "handshake" greeting
started...to show you didn't have a weapon.

When the Hawaiians saw the Westerners
greeting one another with an out stretched
hand ..

..they said..."eh..these people don't breath
on each other like we do...they are...non breathers...
HAOLE...

Bottom line is simply this: A different culture.
A different expression. A different perspective.

It was never meant to be disrespectful to the
Western culture. It was never mean to be
derogatory. It was simply an observation.

We are of the same race. We are of the same
maker. We are of the same destiny on planet
Earth.

Let's make it a good one while we are here.
We may never pass this way again.

[Karen]

Hi Krash!

thanks for the explanation, so very cool to learn this. Indeed it didn't start out with an insulting intent, but like so many words and phrases, such as the word "gay" it has totally changed in application/definition.

I am part Cherokee, and didn't know about the "breathing on" each other in greeting, just very cool to learn, and again, thanks.

I liked your last line of your post very much. It reminded me of a song I used to luv very much, that a musician friend of mine used to play for me, on the keyboard. It was the song with a title something like your line, about not passing this way again, "if there is any good that I can do, let me do it now, Oh Lord please show me how..." lol the words flood back, though I am void of the official title at this time.

A hearty amen, we need more Aloha Spirit/Southern Hospitality in this world desperately.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Krash's explanation is very cute but it's wrong. The "without breath" thing is a folk etymology that has developed over the years, but it's not supported by a close look at the Hawaiian language.

If you examine the words "ha" and "ole" using a proper Hawaiian dictionary (e.g. Pukui, Elbert, & Mo'okini), you see that "ha" is actually pronounced hā, and "ole" is actually pronounced 'ole. Hā'ole is not the same word as haole. This is a good example of the misunderstandings caused by using the English alphabet to represent Hawaiian words without the appropriate accent marks.

Haole just means "foreign". That's why it is also used in names such as koa haole (or more commonly, haole koa) meaning "foreign koa", which refers to the Leucaena leucocephala plant because when its shoots are young, they resemble the shoots of the native koa tree, Acacia koa. Koa haole is not named so because it has "no breath"; it's named so because it is a foreign plant.

[Eric]

Too many times have I been the receiver of "haole go home," despite my being a fourth-generation caucasian here in Hawaii. Where am I supposed to go - back to Maui? It never fails, I'll go somewhere, and people will ask me, "eh, where you from?" and I dutifully answer, "Uh, Maui." And then I get "No, originally!" And I'm like, "Uh, Maui." Yeah, I'm white as a sheet, and speak proper English (although fluent in pidgin, I prefer not to use it). Everyone I meet thinks I'm from Seattle or somewhere. Once I get to talking with people, however, they are totally cool with me. Half of me is with them -- here's yet another fricken' haole -- but the other half of me is like, dude, you people (and I use that phrase for a reason) are gonna be thought of as slack-jaws forever if you keep up that attitude. Hawaii is Hawaii, and it's a great place, that's why I returned here after living away for so long, but the thought processes here are so backwards sometimes, it's worse than a trailer park. Hawaii has so much potential, yet lacks so much.
Dick, welcome to the club of "folks who ignorant people think don't belong". I have Chinese-American friends in California who get that all the time.

"Hey, where are you from?"
"San Diego."
"No, where are you from originally?"
"Well, when I was a kid I lived in Illinois...
"No, no, where were you born?"
"Oh! Poughkeepsie, New York."
"..."

Slack-jaws live everywhere, I guess.

[Krash Kolohe]

Krash's explanation is very cute but it's wrong. The "without breath" thing is a folk etymology that has developed over the years, but it's not supported by a close look at the Hawaiian language.

If you examine the words "ha" and "ole" using a proper Hawaiian dictionary (e.g. Pukui, Elbert, & Mo'okini), you see that "ha" is actually pronounced hā, and "ole" is actually pronounced 'ole. Hā'ole is not the same word as haole. This is a good example of the misunderstandings caused by using the English alphabet to represent Hawaiian words without the appropriate accent marks.

Haole just means "foreign". That's why it is also used in names such as koa haole (or more commonly, haole koa) meaning "foreign koa", which refers to the Leucaena leucocephala plant because when its shoots are young, they resemble the shoots of the native koa tree, Acacia koa. Koa haole is not named so because it has "no breath"; it's named so because it is a foreign plant.
~~~~~~~~~~

ahhh...the debate goes on. Thank you for your "correction" Mistah Miyashiro. It unfortunately, is not "a good example of misunderstandings caused by using the English aphabet to represent Hawaiian words..."

"ha" according to Mary Kawena Pukui, Samuel Elbert and Esther Mookini's "Hawaiian Dictionary, truly does have a broad definition of "..to breath, exhale.." I am reading it as we "speak". Also quoting that same resource: "'ole" has the first definition as ..."not, without, lacking,zero, nothing..."

More intresting takes on " ha'ole" ...

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/haole.html

http://www.frommers.com/destinations/oahu/0009020249.html

http://www.aspirenow.com/purpose_breath_belinda_08_00.htm

http://www.huna.com/ha_breathing.html

http://wind.prohosting.com/johreiki/DC/deliberate_creation_template2.html

oooh I could go on...but just consider the possibilities...of the word...the one I know was passed on to me by my kupuna ....who spoke fluent Hawaiian, was a la'au lapa au master and a personal friend of Mary Kawena Pukui...

hmmm...just consider the possibilities...and don't be so quick to dismiss a thought...a belief...a perception....simply enjoy.

peace

[pzarquon]

I agree with Glen. Not to diminish what your Kumu taught you, Krash, as stories and legends are about the most important part of Hawaiian culture as you can get. I have no doubt teachers tell the same story, and believe it... but I'm pretty sure it's been debunked.

Hawaiian was my discipline of choice at UH, and I took seven semesters of it. More than once the term 'haole' was discussed at length, and the folk tale of how it meant "lack of breath" - whether because Cook and newcomers didn't breathe each other's breath or because they smoked (the other popular explanation) - came up every time. The explanation was also consistently described in terms of an "urban myth," a modern hypothesis that became reknown simply due to repetition and a mildly plausible basis.

You knew the story well enough to post it here. More than a few folks have heard it often enough to publish it on the web. But you have to consider the credibility of your source. You can find websites that prove the earth is flat!

It's like how many recite as fact that hula was first performed by men, or was even only a man's practice - a "fact" accepted as gospel in some circles but easily refuted with research. (A more contemporary example would be the Ford Nova = "No Go" in Mexico story. Everyone knows it's true... but it isn't (http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp).)

Yes, the word/phrase "ha `ole" would mean without breath. But "haole" - no kahako, no `okina - is (1.) a standalone word that (2.) existed and was used prior to the arrival of Caucasians. It meant "foreigner" before Cook, and in context described visitors and delegations from other parts of Polynesia. When Cook arrived, therefore, they were haole - foreign, unfamiliar.

Keali`i Reichel, an entertainer but a strong scholar of Hawaiian in his own right, has spoken often about this. You can read extensive discussion of this topic in USENET (where linguists have also noted that "haole" seems phonetically related to the Marquesian "aoe," which has a similar definition). And I'm certain an e-mail to someone at the Hawaiian Language Center at UH Hilo or any other scholar could add more insight.

[Krash Kolohe]

Well, cheee ...Prophet why neva say you had 7 semesters??

I going fold up my beach mat, take my cooler and get off da beach.
Between you and Mistah Miyashiro ..hoo...hard for breathe ova hea.

No can hold a candle to dat level of edu-macation!

My bad.

Your thoughts were well written Prophet ...elegantly put.
Diplomatically expressed. The comment on earth being
flat was kinda one cheap shot..but eh...I respect your
right to express your self. It's cool.

Maybe somebody like de bunk some uddah "urban legend"....
maybe PELE or ....eh...how about the Night Marchers ...

Da line starts right afta I get off dis beach...da air stay kinda strange...
I wondah what is missing?? hmmmmm..... maybe FUN ...maybe ALOHA...
hmmm...I wondah?
:rolleyes:

[pzarquon]

No can hold a candle to dat level of edu-macation!Cute. You cite where your theory comes from, and it's earnest and genuine. I tell you where I'm coming from, and it's haughty and hollow. Your mentioning your kumu and "personal friend of Mary Kawena Pukui" was a reasonable way to frame your response. I cited my classes in the same way. It was simply "this is where I'm coming from," nothing more.
The comment on earth being flat was kinda one cheap shot..but eh...I respect your right to express your self. It's cool.Cheap shot? It was hardly intended that way. You cited various websites as evidence to bolster your theory as to how "haole" came from "ha `ole." My point was, just because it's on the web, doesn't mean it's so. You make, or anyone makes, an independent judgements as to what is credible. (I wouldn't expect you to find what anyone writes here as neccessarily credible, either.) You said yourself, it's "a thought...a belief...a perception..." Well, what you're experiencing here is a differentthought, belief, or perception. It seems a bit ridiculous to think that an opinion to the contrary of yours constitutes a lack of aloha. If we all agreed on anything, what kind of fun would any conversation be?

Actually, you make a good point of bringing up Madam Pele. After all, I just said, "stories and legends are about the most important part of Hawaiian culture as you can get." No one's trying to debunk disprove the existence or truth of Madam Pele. You're comparing apples and oranges.

What you've put forward here is a linguistic/academic theory of the origin of a word, not a piece of folklore. "This is fact," you declared... not "according to Hawaiian mythology," or, "some people say." With that assertion, it was something that I felt wasn't out of bounds for discussion.
I wondah what is missing?? hmmmmm..... maybe FUN ...maybe ALOHA... hmmm...I wondah?A pity you feel that way. I thought this was a pretty entertaining discussion.

[Karen]

I thought this was an interesting discussion, too! thanks to all for the input.

It is true that the written word has us all at its mercy, here. See what just happened since I posted?! People reacted to others' words here, with apparent misunderstanding. I think this is the one thing every forum could use a reminder of, at the top or something. That is that each writer writes his words while hearing them within his own mind, knowing what words are emphasized, what tone they are said in, and knowing his own attitude, etc.

We readers read the other writer's words without being able to hear the voice tone, inflection, or see any body language, etc. We furthermore read it within our own minds, and it can be at the mercy of what type of mood we are in that day, etc.

Every person I have read here has much to share, and I hope this place never suffers hatefulness, animosity, etc.

[kamlost]

Great forum. Great discussion.

I love the internet cause it goes beyond what I look like ;) in this world, I can be who I really am without worrying that a person is going to judge me by the way I'm dressed, etc.

I know some people who don't mind being called haole, and some who get absolutely angry at being referred to as haole.

Isn't it sometimes used as terms of endearment amongst friends who have different races?

[Glen Miyashiro]

Isn't it [haole] sometimes used as terms of endearment amongst friends who have different races?
Is it? I've never heard it used that way. I mean, if I hear someone say, "Eh, howzit, haole?" I'm gonna assume that the guy he's talking to is... well... haole. If he's not, I'll be confused. :rolleyes:

[pzarquon]

I think Kamlost means that haole is often used innocuously as an adjective when trying to identify a Caucasian in a group of people of different ethnicities. Say, if you want to help a friend find someone in an office, you'll say, "Look for the haole woman at the front desk." I have haole friends who definitely self-identify as haole.

It's the modifier, as in local haole, that often makes most of the difference. Being described as hapa haole or local haole is one thing. Being called a "frickin' haole" is something else entirely!

[Albert]

We seem to have an outbreak of these "what's in a word" threads.

In my experience (about 14 years now) of being an "outsider", I have heard "haole" most often used as just a descriptive term. "That haole guy".
I often heard it used when I was working for an insurance broker downtown, just to distinguish who was being talked about.

If you want to use "haole" as something racist and negative, you need to use an adjective before it (the one that starts with F and ends with -ing works very well).

[kamlost]

~.~

Friends of mine who are not haoles call each other haole - teasingly.

And when they call a haole that within a group, I guess it depends on, like what you guys said, it depends on the adjective before it. The tones make a huge difference too!

[craigwatanabe]

My wife told me about the way Hawaiians breathe as a greeting to one another, she's Hawaiian as well. So what is the exact translation of Hauna then as in stink breath as we know it?

I also read that Captain Cook wasn't merely killed, he was eaten as well. So with that said, Captain Cook...the other white meat. :eek:

Oh man that was bad, I'm sorry for that remark but it kinda all tied in.

Regardless of meaning in today's verbage I understood Haole as someone not from this land. So I call my Hawaiian/Japanese friend who was born and raised in L.A. a Katonka Mahaole instead of the native Hawaiian: Kanaka Maoli.

What really amazes me is that the most extreme Hawaiian activists have Haole last names! Like Trask. What's up with that? :)

[Karen]

What really amazes me is that the most extreme Hawaiian activists have Haole last names! Like Trask. What's up with that? :)"

LOL well, Kamehameha is founded on the will of a lady with a very haole name, BISHOP! (G) Was she married to a haole? Oh man, this thread reminds me of eleven years ago, we'd just moved into the island, and a neighborhood boy got aggravated at one of my daughers, called her a haole, and she had already been visiting with his sisters, so she reminded him he was a large part, haole! He denied it till one of his sisters reminded him that one of their grandparents is total haole, and another one is part. I kid you not, he acted shocked, but had probably seen them the day before or something. what matters is to this day, he is a dear friend, calls me "auntie" and I get hugged every time I see him anywhere. He has grown up into a really fine teen.

Whatever haole means, I am not a bit insulted nor intimidated to be called one. (G) Heck, some have tried to insult me, but it just rolls off me like water off a duck's back.

[craigwatanabe]

The difference is that Bernice Pauahi Bishop is very much Hawaiian, her husband Charles Reed Bishop (who dedicated the Bishop Muesum to his wife) was the haole, so to speak. Hmmm but she has a haole first name. Oh my.
:eek:

[hanai]

Another thought regarding the "without breath" meaning, in New Zealand, Hawai'i's southern Polynesian cousin with a very similar language (apparently identical before the missionaries intervened), white Europeans are referred to as 'Pakeha', same word 'ha' meaning breath of life, origin is because the newcomers were not familiar with the 'hongi' or nose rub greeting of polynesian cultures, wherein the breath of life is intermingled.

[kamlost]

so, halitosis is a no-no.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Another thought regarding the "without breath" meaning, in New Zealand, Hawai'i's southern Polynesian cousin with a very similar language (apparently identical before the missionaries intervened), white Europeans are referred to as 'Pakeha', same word 'ha' meaning breath of life, origin is because the newcomers were not familiar with the 'hongi' or nose rub greeting of polynesian cultures, wherein the breath of life is intermingled.
A quick google indicates that in New Zealand they're not too sure about the origin of pakeha either. Best guess seems to be that it was a shortening of pakepakeha, which were mythical fair-skinned creatures who lived in the forest. (Maybe like the menehune, but paler?) I didn't find anybody's web page making a connection to the "ha"="breath" thing.

[kamlost]

Someone edited my post :(

[craigwatanabe]

I had my post completely removed, what gives?

[hanai]

Thats strange...Hmm?!??! :confused:

[Mahina]

The word "haole" was around long before Captain Cook appeared and long before it morphed into meaning someone of Caucasian descent. Its meaning was and always has been "stranger".

It is used in our Kumulipo...the traditional creation and geneological chant of the Hawaiian royal family.

In the Fifth Chant it says: "Hanau ke Po'ohaole, he haole kela" which, translated means "Born were the fair-haired, they were strangers."

It was also used in an ancient legend (can't find it...sorry) that refers to a pig-man on the Big Island..."pu'u haole"...who was a stranger who came and frightened the wahine of kalapana. There are also stories with references to na pua haole, strange flowers, etc.

As far as the word "haole" coming from "ha ole" (without breath), I suppose it could be that over time the two words were run together to the single word with the pronunciation we have today. It should be remembered that being without breath did not necessarily mean that people did not exchange breath in the traditional face-to-face greeting among our people, but had many other meanings as well. "Breath" contains the power of life, the spirit and essence of who we are as a people and thus to be "ha ole" or without breath can mean that a person does not have the spirit within that makes one Hawaiian.

In any case, "ha ole" or "haole"....neither should be considered as being negative when applied to someone...unless, as Albert pointed, it is preceded with an insulting adjective or said in a demeaning way. :;

[craigwatanabe]

so why is it then that the more vocal Hawaiian activists like Ms. Trask used the word Haole in a derogative way last year? It seems I only hear the phrase F@#n Haole uttered from the very people who embrace the Hawaiian language as sacred! I hardly consider the use of the Hawaiian language in that manner as sacred or revered in any stretch.

[kimo55]

so why is it then that the more vocal Hawaiian activists like Ms. Trask used the word Haole in a derogative way last year? It seems I only hear the phrase F@#n Haole uttered from the very people who embrace the Hawaiian language as sacred! I hardly consider the use of the Hawaiian language in that manner as sacred or revered in any stretch.


prolly cuz it's je'like you get da kine early pidgin (like what we grew up with in kailua in da 60's) and den get da odda kine, more modern li dat, with some cali and L.A. gangbanger crap thrown in. And of course, the really early pidgin like you get early hawaii days, when the original (i suppose) pidgin was being formed; the 20s and thirties?


just like that, there is early "ancient" Hawaiian, then there is the "transistional tongue" I call it, wherein meanings are beginning to get altered as the era of contact with outsiders makes the language morph into something else... then we have the so called 'modern' hawaiian language...

"It's clear as mud but at least it covered the ground..."

[craigwatanabe]

Thanks or Mahalo for that translation but...HAH?!

[kimo55]

Thanks or Mahalo for that translation but...HAH?!
'chumean "HAH!?"?!

Im tellin you there are many meanings to each hawaiian word; depending on the context, and depending on the era that word was defined in!
so hah! there!

I had my post completely removed, what gives?
Thats strange...Hmm?!??! :confused:
you mess wit da sacred Hawaiian words, brah
you goin' get kahuna'd!

'chout!

[admin]

Sorry, I only caught up with this thread today. Were these edited and missing posts in this topic specifically?

I certainly haven't edited or removed any messages here. I don't think Mel or Helen have either (they've been kind enough to be volunteer firefighters, but will hopefully never have to suit up). I know we had an earlier thread (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=1128) on 'haole' but you don't have any posts there...

When posts are edited, there should definitely be a notation. Something like "fixed quote tags" or "resized large image."

Outright removal of posts will likely never happen, unless you post a close up photo of some kind of gaping wet orifice (and you're lucky if you missed this particular episode!) or something... and even in that case, there'll definitely also be a notation as to why.

Apart from that, if anything, posts are occasionally moved, threads split into separate topics, and the like. But what you write should always be retained. At worst, if you get lost, the "Search" function should help you reconnect.

Again, I have no answers for this particular thread. If you want to help me figure it out, please PM me, and of course anytime if you have other questions or concerns.

[kimo55]

Outright removal of posts will likely never happen, unless you post a close up photo of some kind of gaping wet orifice

eeewww!
THIS post shoulda been removed.

[craigwatanabe]

'chumean "HAH!?"?!


Im tellin you there are many meanings to each hawaiian word; depending on the context, and depending on the era that word was defined in!
so hah! there!


This is a perfect example as to how pidgin can be misinterpreted by your statement.

I didn't mean Hah as in, "Humph you don't know what you're talking about."

Notice the question mark before the exclamation point? That makes the pidgin of saying Hah as, "Whoa dat dakine UH talk try talk mo simple for dakine buggas like us."

so your "Hah! There!" Needs to be restated as "Get um? Shoot we go eat"

Got em? Okay...latas. :)

[craigwatanabe]

eeewww!
THIS post shoulda been removed.

What's wrong with a mouth? Long pause...insert dirty thought... :eek: Ho man what you was tinking brudda? :D

[Glen Miyashiro]

Outright removal of posts will likely never happen, unless you post a close up photo of some kind of gaping wet orifice (and you're lucky if you missed this particular episode!) or something... and even in that case, there'll definitely also be a notation as to why.
Yeah, I saw that one when it got posted. Yipes. Glad you were on top of it.

Err. That didn't sound right. :p

[Glen Miyashiro]

["haole"] was also used in an ancient legend (can't find it...sorry) that refers to a pig-man on the Big Island..."pu'u haole"...who was a stranger who came and frightened the wahine of kalapana. There are also stories with references to na pua haole, strange flowers, etc.
Would that pig-man be Kamapua'a? Lemme see... there's a portion of He Mo'olelo no Kamapua'a (http://www2.hawaii.edu/~kroddy/moolelo/kamapuaa/helu3.htm) that has "haole" in it, is this what you were thinking of? I can't read Hawaiian so I'm not sure if it's the right reference.

E ka ehu, e ka uli,
E ka hiwa, ka maha kea,
Ke kukui, ka maumau,
Ka hala uhaloa,
Ke-a oo, ke-a piwai,
Ka haole nui maka alohilohi.

[Mahina]

Would that pig-man be Kamapua'a?

Ka haole nui maka alohilohi.

That line is from the chant to Kamapua'a, but he is not the pig-man I'm referring to. I still can't find it....

At any rate, the line above translates "A big stranger with bright eyes..."

Oh yeah....in my original post above I wrote "pu'u haole". It should have been pua'a haole. E kala mai....went back and fixed it (well, tried, but cannot get back into da post lidat...grrrrrr).

[Kalani]

I also read that Captain Cook wasn't merely killed, he was eaten as well. So with that said, Captain Cook...the other white meat.
I heard of that from a person not from Hawaii. Cook was cooked, but not eaten. The body is put in the imu in order to remove the flesh leaving only the bones.

What really amazes me is that the most extreme Hawaiian activists have Haole last names! Like Trask. What's up with that? :)
One doesn't need a Hawaiian surname or a male Hawaiian ancestor for multiple generations in order to be an "activist" as you call it. I guess you weren't really exposed to many Hawaiians from homestead. If you were, you would know exactly how hard it is for these people to leave these areas and strive for better education. Who could send their children to better schools? Na Haole! Including those that intermarried, and in turn you have hapa haole children being well educated. Hawaiians like the Trask sisters, Kekuni Blaisdell, Edward Ayau, P. Burgess, and many others.

[Kalani]

Hmmm but she has a haole first name. Oh my.
:eek:
Many Hawaiians in those days took Christian names when they were baptized. Even Ka'ahumanu took one after she was baptized.

[Kalani]

Krash's explanation is very cute but it's wrong. The "without breath" thing is a folk etymology that has developed over the years, but it's not supported by a close look at the Hawaiian language.
Krash's explanation is funny, but definitely not far from the truth. The fact is, "haole" was given to those who never followed the protocols of greeting, and that was the exchange of "ha" where they would "honi" (sniff). "ho mai ka ihu" is the term that was used when they would "honi".

If you examine the words "ha" and "ole" using a proper Hawaiian dictionary (e.g. Pukui, Elbert, & Mo'okini), you see that "ha" is actually pronounced hā, and "ole" is actually pronounced 'ole. Hā'ole is not the same word as haole. This is a good example of the misunderstandings caused by using the English alphabet to represent Hawaiian words without the appropriate accent marks.
Glen, can you explain when the dictionary was established? Keep in mind that you are not considering changes in any given language which is the norm, not to mention only less than 200 years of Hawaiian orthography which only in recent years has it been stabilized with minimum changes unlike the changes it went through since the 1820s, the 70s, and of course in the 90s.

What you also failed to mention was that you are making the assumption since its inception the word "haole" was always been pronounced the way that we do it today. Let me give you some examples.

Today many people pronounce the island of Molokai as it is. Whereas they say the correct way is w/ the 'okina - Moloka'i. There obviously was a change in pronunciation. The question is, which is the correct way? I say that b/c what many people don't realize is the story of how Moloka'i is NOT the correct pronunciation or at least not the original pronunciation. Had Captain Cook know how to use an 'okina in distinguishing names, it may have been easier. But if he did, would we see the island name as it is pronounced today? I say that b/c the use of the 'okina as told to me by kupuna of that island was incorporated later in the 40s or so, probably due to songs being composed of that island and was sung like that. Like how "`onaona" is sung 'ona-'ona, but is not the correct pronunciation. But Capt. Cook only wrote down what he heard and what he heard was Morotai, not Molokai nor Moloka'i.

Look at Diamond Head. The Hawaiian name is Lē'ahi. But even that term is new. How new? We know that during Ka'ahumanu's time it was already known as that, but prior to that, that mountain was known as Lae'ahi, named of the brow of the 'ahi fish that would swim past that area.

Given those examples, it proves that Hawaiians even prior to European contact have changed the pronunciation of their words. You are making the assumption that HAOLE, although that word has been used in chants during the time of Paumakua, a chief who lived 30 generations before Kamehameha, was NOT pronounced with the 'okina.

My point being, what you see written down today as "haole" cannot invalidate the original meaning or its original inception. And that even in the chant of Paumakua where the description ka haole nui maka alohilohi... which refers to the big foreigners with bright eyes, is not written with all the accent marks. Does that mean 'ālohilohi was pronounced differently then b/c it wasn't written with its 'okina and kahakō?

... is not named so because it has "no breath"; it's named so because it is a foreign plant.
No, haole became to mean "foreign" in regards to those who didn't follow the protocols and that word evolved to mean foreign versus the other word for foreign.

[Kalani]

The word "haole" was around long before Captain Cook appeared and long before it morphed into meaning someone of Caucasian descent. Its meaning was and always has been "stranger".

It is used in our Kumulipo...the traditional creation and geneological chant of the Hawaiian royal family.

The Kumulipo was composed during the time of Lonoikamakahiki. "Haole" was being used even the time of Paumakua, 30 generations before Kamehameha.

[craigwatanabe]

it would be interesting to trace it's polynesian (Tahitian?) roots. Then you can really see just how far back it went. Kon Tiki anyone?

[Kalani]

it would be interesting to trace it's polynesian (Tahitian?) roots. Then you can really see just how far back it went. Kon Tiki anyone?
They use "taiora" (sp?) but I have no idea of the origin. Samoans use palagi, and I remember reading something about the origin. I thought it had to do with "lagi" (heaven/sky) but I could be wrong.

[craigwatanabe]

They use "taiora" (sp?) but I have no idea of the origin. Samoans use palagi, and I remember reading something about the origin. I thought it had to do with "lagi" (heaven/sky) but I could be wrong.

yeah I can see if it started with "taiora" or "lagi". Drink some really potent Okolehau den da lips get real wobbly kine so if you said "Eh Taiora" or "Eh Lagi" (especially dat one) it could come out "Eh Haole" You gotta be pretty sloshed to think "taiora" but da mout says, "Haole". But "lagi" yeah da tongue no lift up and da "L" sound comes out "H" and same with the "G" sound, come out "L" because da brain still tinking "L" by da time you stay on da "G". Hmmm...makes sense to me! :D

[Kalani]

yeah I can see if it started with "taiora" or "lagi". Drink some really potent Okolehau den da lips get real wobbly kine so if you said "Eh Taiora" or "Eh Lagi" (especially dat one) it could come out "Eh Haole" You gotta be pretty sloshed to think "taiora" but da mout says, "Haole". But "lagi" yeah da tongue no lift up and da "L" sound comes out "H" and same with the "G" sound, come out "L" because da brain still tinking "L" by da time you stay on da "G". Hmmm...makes sense to me! :D
"Okolehau is only Hawaiian and not (as far as I know) a drink throughout Polynesia.

BTW, the T and L are not similar. The L and R are, just as the K and T, so there is no way that they would be similar. If you knew what happens within your mouth whenever these letters are pronounced, then you'd understand.

h = voiceless
t = voiceless alveolar stop
k = voiceless velar stop

The L and R in many languages around the word unlike in English are that they both are pronounced by channeling air throughthe central part of the mouth. The R is called a central approximant while the L is a lateral approximant.

As for the G, it is spelled with a G but is not pronounced like a G but rather an ng sound.

[Pelix]

what i've always found funny is how close the word for "roach" is to haole- and how so many oversensitive people get really miffed about it

[Nohealani]

Another thought regarding the "without breath" meaning, in New Zealand, Hawai'i's southern Polynesian cousin with a very similar language (apparently identical before the missionaries intervened), white Europeans are referred to as 'Pakeha', same word 'ha' meaning breath of life, origin is because the newcomers were not familiar with the 'hongi' or nose rub greeting of polynesian cultures, wherein the breath of life is intermingled.


I agree with you...I just came back from NZ after 5 months at the University of Auckland...similarities in culture and traditions are apparent among the Maori and Hawaiians, especially the sharing of one's breath as a sign to create a bonding between two individuals...I'll just keep this light as the speculation of "what's in a word?" tends to bring about many opposing views.

[Tutulady]

...I also read that Captain Cook wasn't merely killed, he was eaten as well. So with that said, Captain Cook...the other white meat. :eek:

Oh man that was bad, I'm sorry for that remark but it kinda all tied in.
Aue! Another misconception of an ancient sacred practice meant to ensure the highest honor afforded an "ali'i". Cooks body was treated as though he was a high chief and accorded rituals and protocols reserved only for the highest of priests and ali'i. He was taken to the heiau and rituals/protocols were completed over his body which involved (trying to keep this as short as possible so not going into great detail here) his body being put in an imu, to strip the flesh (gathered and put on the side to be cast in the sea by trusted kahu/caretakers once the heiau ceremonies are done) away from the bones, to clean said bones and wrap them according to ancient rituals and this is what is presented back to his people. After the whole process is completed, those who attended the ceremonies had to go through a cleansing ritual that clears them of defilement and "frees" them from the burdens of those tasks. One is not allowed to re-enter society until they have completed this process as they are considered defiled and may bring harm to all those they come into contact with. In ancient times, anyone caught disobeying the protocols were ostracized (sp?) and may eventually be killed. Kanaka maoli never participated in canibalism! There are chants and mo'o'olelo that speak of people, said to have committed canibalism and how they were treated. I can't remember, specifically, an example of such a chant but I do know some of those protocols, and have participated in kanu activities albeit on a modified scale considering today's laws relating to burials. I have been trained in such protocols being a past member (I haven't participated in recent years due to health issues) of Hui Malama, as well as, my family's own burial rituals/protocols.

[wala'au haole]

Since the word appears in my username, I figured I should throw in my 2 cents.

Having grown up in Hawaii and spent all my adult life here so far, whenever I was referred to as "haole" it was a description of the fact that I'm mostly of Caucasian ethnicity, thus fair-skinned with European features, and this term was vitually always used for identification purposes.

Usual context: "Oh, you're looking for the haole guy there on the right, yeah that's him..."

[warriorfan808]

In my opinion, the word Haole is very much racist. I have seen it used as a racist term far too many times to ever use it to describe anyone. Sure I've heard it used as a description, but not nearly as much as racist.

I've heard the word used in situations without the Fbomb dropped before it or even in a sentence that didn't seem bad. Like, "Tell the haoles this" or ,"The haole lady in the front, tell her try come".. etc. The thing is, the people seemed suprised and insulted.

Many might say it means foreigner, but we all know that the word means, "white" now. I know some white people that are second generation here on the islands that are called haole. Are they still foreigners? Doesn't this word exclude them?

It's a racist word that I've heard being used in the same context as the, "N" word. Sugar coat it all you want, but those are the facts.

[Miulang]

In my opinion, the word Haole is very much racist. I have seen it used as a racist term far too many times to ever use it to describe anyone. Sure I've heard it used as a description, but not nearly as much as racist.

I've heard the word used in situations without the Fbomb dropped before it or even in a sentence that didn't seem bad. Like, "Tell the haoles this" or ,"The haole lady in the front, tell her try come".. etc. The thing is, the people seemed suprised and insulted.

Many might say it means foreigner, but we all know that the word means, "white" now. I know some white people that are second generation here on the islands that are called haole. Are they still foreigners? Doesn't this word exclude them?

It's a racist word that I've heard being used in the same context as the, "N" word. Sugar coat it all you want, but those are the facts.
It's only racist if you choose it to be and your attitude reflects that interpretation. ;)

Miulang

[Pomai44]

I don’t like getting into these types of conversations because most people have already formed their opinion before the conversation has started an rarely change that opinion.

But having said that I only wanted to bring up the fact that the main problem with trying to say what the original meaning of a word haole is, is almost impossible, due to the fact that the Hawaiian language was not a written language but a spoken one. For theoretical purposes the Hawaiian people came to these islands about 1000 years ago, so for about 800 years the language was handed down from one generation to the other, anyone who believes that the language an meanings stayed the same throughout all that time is sadly mistaken, it is a fact that if you tell a story (chant) over an over it will not be the same as it started out to be, just through human error, even if they tried their best to repeat it exactly as was told to them. So to assume that the Hawaiian Language of today is the same as it was a thousand years ago is wrong. Who’s right and who’s wrong proably doesn’t matter, because it could be that neither is.

Now for my opinion, my mother inlaw was pure Hawaiian born in 1916, she had told me that her mother who I think was born in 1886 on Kaua’i had told her the meaning of haole was the without spirituality version. Now does that mean that that is the true meaining of the word NO, but unless I was able to talk to a Hawaiian who was around here a thousand years ago, I can’t say for sure what the meaning of the word is, all we can do is have our own opinion, including the scholars of UH. So IMHO you can be a haole an be of any race, Hawaiian, Japanese, Filipino, African and also Caucasian.
;)

[Jonah K]

So IMHO you can be a haole an be of any race, Hawaiian, Japanese, Filipino, African and also Caucasian.
;)
In general, anyone who's not kanaka maoli is haole. Those who believe that the word haole is analogous to the infamous "N" word that's occasionally used to refer to haole pā'ele (aka pōpolo) are just hūpō. :cool:

Now if some haole was referred to as an 'elelū kea, 'ōkole kāmano or equally "poetic" Hawaiian phrase, they might have a right to feel offended. ;)

[warriorfan808]

It's only racist if you choose it to be and your attitude reflects that interpretation. ;)

Miulang

If I choose it to be? Are you serious? I'm not haole, but I have seen it used in a racist way many times. Are you confident to say that it is not used in a racist way? I'm not ignorant to believe that it is always used as a racist term, but not everyone is educated by the meaning and even if they were, that does not mean they'll use it properly.

I remember back in High School, there was a, "Kill the Haole Day". This was a day that kids that were ligher did not go to school because of the fear they would get jumped. I didn't see the local japanese; korean, filipino; samoan , etc kids getting picked on because of the color of their skin. That's exactly how it is being used. We have words to describe an ethnic background, but lately haole has been used to exclude people of fair colored skin.

I am confident enough to say, those that grew up in Hawaii, have seen it used in a racist way.

[warriorfan808]

In general, anyone who's not kanaka maoli is haole. Those who believe that the word haole is analogous to the infamous "N" word that's occasionally used to refer to haole pā'ele (aka pōpolo) are just hūpō. :cool:

Now if some haole was referred to as an 'elelū kea, 'ōkole kāmano or equally "poetic" Hawaiian phrase, they might have a right to feel offended. ;)


The N word was infamously used to refer to african amerian people to show that they were inferior. Not inferior as a person, but inferior as a race. How many times have you heard the sentence, "stupid haole"? How about, "Shuddup, Haole..you don't know sh.."? I've seen people with valid comments being dismissed and called, "haole" because of the color of their skin.

If you really believe that the word haole is never used in a racist way, then you my friend are the one taht is hūpō.

[kimo55]

I don’t like getting into these types of conversations because most people have already formed their opinion before the conversation has started an rarely change that opinion.
That is very true. Add that to the fact that most any and every Hawaiian word has many meanings depending on the context. And the incredible dogma of: "Well, 'Haole' means only THIS" shows an extreme lack of understanding with the Hawaiian language and general communication here in our islands.
Which means, much of what they hear in Hawaii will be misconstrued.
Leading to pointless argumentation, and wallowing deeper in the muck and mire of resentment and ignorance.

[warriorfan808]

I've heard both definitions growing up. From my Hawaiian history teacher, I heard that haole meant foreigner and from my Kapuna and many other teachers, "without breath". I figured the without breathe version came first, but those sources posted earlier rebute those beliefs. Makes me wonder if the, "without breath" may have been a way of describing other foreigners that came before Captain Cook.

Days have changed from the times we used to burn faggots.

Before I get banned, I meant, "bundle of sticks". This thread is labled, "Meaning of the Word Haole" and I wanted to point out that although the original meaning has many noble meanings, the way it is oftenly used now doesn't. As sad as it might be, a word's meaning changes after the context it is used dramatically changes. Haole just happens to be one of those words that has been given another meaning, IMO a racist one.

BTW, I did say ANOTHER and not ONLY, I am aware of the other meanings.

[kimo55]

As sad as it might be, a word's meaning changes after the context it is used dramatically changes.


Don't know how or why it is sad that a word may have many meanings depending on the context. That is just the nature of a 'foreign language'. Foreign to some, not foreign to others.
And it will remain foreign the more one adamantly states; 'haole' is only a racist word.

(we have seen it for years here on H.T and other "chat rooms".

"uh I wuz called 'haole' and I am deeply offended..."

[warriorfan808]

Don't know how or why it is sad that a word may have many meanings depending on the context. That is just the nature of a 'foreign language'. Foreign to some, not foreign to others.
And it will remain foreign the more one adamantly states; 'haole' is only a racist word.

(we have seen it for years here on H.T and other "chat rooms".

"uh I wuz called 'haole' and I am deeply offended..."

Guess you didn't get that last part when I said I didn't say ONLY, but I guess you can feel free to add it in because you want to.

Also, it is sad if a word is changed into a negative word because of the context it is being used at the time.

You sound like one of them people that say it's ok to use the N word. "Oh I was called N and I'm deeply offended". Well if there are people getting offended by it, there has to be a reason? Lack of knowledge of what the word actually means? I would agree to that. The context to how the word is being used? I've seen it many times.

Also, read on. I'm not haole nor have I ever been called haole. When I was a dumb kid that didn't know any better, I actually used that word a lot and picked on kids.

I'm not going to say that the other meanings aren't correct. In fact, go back and reread my post and you'll see that I stated that I didn't say ONLY. However, twist my words anyway you want. You're fooling yourself if you think the word isn't used in a racial context.

[kimo55]

yes, and it is obvious from my post I sound like one of them people that say it's ok to use the M word. and the F word and the L phrase.

"microwave"
and also
"fiduciary"
as well as
"Leaves in a summer's day"...


yea. it all follows! yer right!

[Miulang]

I'm not going to say that the other meanings aren't correct. In fact, go back and reread my post and you'll see that I stated that I didn't say ONLY. However, twist my words anyway you want. You're fooling yourself if you think the word isn't used in a racial context.
And that is why I said what I said. I don't use that term in a perjorative way and feel sorry for anybody who does and also anybody who perceives it to be perjorative and acts out because of it. ALL of us can say that other races have perjorative names for us, but not many strike out at others because of it, all the way from "half breed" to "popolo". Sometimes, we even use those perjoratives when referring to each other of the same race in a joking manner. Only in that case, it's OK to use descriptions in a perjorative manner and not take umbrage. Go figure. If you're not haole, how come you so upset then? :D P.S. Reread what Jonah K. says below. ;) In degrees of offensiveness, I think "haole" is a far far better thing to be called than "poor white trash" or "slant eyed gook". :eek:

Miulang

[Jonah K]

The N word was infamously used to refer to african amerian people to show that they were inferior. Not inferior as a person, but inferior as a race. How many times have you heard the sentence, "stupid haole"? How about, "Shuddup, Haole..you don't know sh.."? I've seen people with valid comments being dismissed and called, "haole" because of the color of their skin.

If you really believe that the word haole is never used in a racist way, then you my friend are the one taht is hūpō.
There's a monograph by law professor Randall Kennedy that thoroughly covers the history of the "N" word. Here's a link....
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0375421726/002-5709907-8751229?v=glance&n=283155

The Hawaiian word haole is no where near as assaultive, no matter how much one might try to argue the point. Other "H" words, such as the English word "honkey" (also spelled "honky" and "honkie") and the Japanese word hakujin are more assaultive and racialized than haole will ever be. However, it can be argued that the word haole is a word of exclusion, much like the Japanese word gaijin ("outside person" or "foreigner") and that it separates the native from the non-native. :cool:

[warriorfan808]

And that is why I said what I said. I don't use that term in a perjorative way and feel sorry for anybody who does and also anybody who perceives it to be perjorative and acts out because of it. ALL of us can say that other races have perjorative names for us, but not many strike out at others because of it, all the way from "half breed" to "popolo". Sometimes, we even use those perjoratives when referring to each other of the same race in a joking manner. Only in that case, it's OK to use descriptions in a perjorative manner and not take umbrage. Go figure. If you're not haole, how come you so upset then? :D P.S. Reread what Jonah K. says below. ;) In degrees of offensiveness, I think "haole" is a far far better thing to be called than "poor white trash" or "slant eyed gook". :eek:

Miulang

My niece that I raised on my own since she was 3 is light skinned and has been picked on a lot by local kids, even though she is local herself. Kids have said, "Don't play with her, she's a haole". She asked me what it meant and I gave her the foreigner definition. Later she tells me that the kids don't like her because they think she's white. Even though they see me, I'm as tanned as they come. I guess when it hits close to home, you go back and see how you may have misused the word yourself.

Of course I had a talk with the kid's parents and let them know that their kids shouldn't be saying that, especially because they aren't hawaiian themselves. Trust me, they have some very ignorant parents out there.

Also going to the mainland and being called the N word because I was darker than everyone else kinda opened up my eyes and let me see the other side of the coin. I remember hearing white people say, "There are black people and then there are "N", them there are N's." To me that was an ignorant comment. To me there are people and then they are jacka****, I could care less that color the person is.

[kimo55]

I could care less that color the person is.
Me, I could NOT care less what someone's color is. Fer myself, I mostly judge by other criteria.

[warriorfan808]

Me, I could NOT care less what someon'e color is. Fer myself, I mostly judge by other criteria.


sorry, I most have had a typo, but I do mean the same thing.

[kimo55]

that's ok, I most have done a typo also....

[Glen Miyashiro]

My niece that I raised on my own since she was 3 is light skinned and has been picked on a lot by local kids, even though she is local herself. Kids have said, "Don't play with her, she's a haole". She asked me what it meant and I gave her the foreigner definition. Later she tells me that the kids don't like her because they think she's white. Even though they see me, I'm as tanned as they come. I guess when it hits close to home, you go back and see how you may have misused the word yourself.

Of course I had a talk with the kid's parents and let them know that their kids shouldn't be saying that, especially because they aren't hawaiian themselves. Trust me, they have some very ignorant parents out there.

Also going to the mainland and being called the N word because I was darker than everyone else kinda opened up my eyes and let me see the other side of the coin. I remember hearing white people say, "There are black people and then there are "N", them there are N's." To me that was an ignorant comment. To me there are people and then they are jacka****, I could care less that color the person is.So here in the islands people see you and think you're haole. And when you were on the mainland you were so dark people thought you were black. Ho, now that's confusing.

[warriorfan808]

that's ok, I most have done a typo also....


It happens to the best of us. Just as long as what is written is understandable, I don't see a problem with it. This is a forum, not a classroom. I'm more of a Math and Science guy, got my BS and avoided writing as much as possible.

[warriorfan808]

So here in the islands people see you and think you're haole. And when you were on the mainland you were so dark people thought you were black. Ho, now that's confusing.


It all depends on the part of the mainland I visited or lived in. While in Kentucky, people were very racist and ignorant. They thought people of Hawaii lived in grass huts and fornicated with their siblings.

I tried to explain to them some of the crap that was done to Hawaiians and some of them actually dismissed it and tried to justify what happened by saying, "Sh** happens to every culture" or, "They done worse to their own kine".

[Nalu]

It all depends on the part of the mainland I visited or lived in. While in Kentucky, people were very racist and ignorant. They thought people of Hawaii lived in grass huts and fornicated with their siblings.

I tried to explain to them some of the crap that was done to Hawaiians and some of them actually dismissed it and tried to justify what happened by saying, "Sh** happens to every culture" or, "They done worse to their own kine".

How contradictory. If those in Kentucky were so ignorant to believe that people who live here live in grass huts, how would they be so astute to know what Hawaiians did to their own? Your statement makes little sense and sounds fabricated.

[manoasurfer123]

Funny thing after I read a lot of these posts.

When I was living in Washington as I was growing up... because I was Mullatto...(half black half white)

The town I lived in had a very low percentage of African American people, and because of this...there was a high prejudice towards African Americans.

At the time... I had plenty family in Hawaii...and to avoid the "Nigger" name tag that would have been associated with me... my parents taught me the phrase hapa haole...which at the time where I lived just meant Half White.

Funny thing is... most the people would think I was Mexican or Indian due to the large amount of immigrant farm workers in the area. (they were really considered the lower part of the social stratification in the area...therefore, using the words...hapa haole would at least get me away from being associated (by skin tone alone) with the (harsh words to follow...) "Spics" or the "Indians"

The word Haole can be used many different ways.... I have heard it used from a descriptive word to a racist word to a word that pretty much was mis-pronounced...ie; they said "hole" when it was spelled Haole however they thought the "A" was misplaced.

[warriorfan808]

How contradictory. If those in Kentucky were so ignorant to believe that people who live here live in grass huts, how would they be so astute to know what Hawaiians did to their own? Your statement makes little sense and sounds fabricated.

Sorry if things didn't come out clearly. I meant to say that some thought that we lived in grass huts and some believed we fornicated with our siblings. Call me a liar all you want, but I was told this. The grass hut thing was brought up by many people. The fornicating with siblings came from a guy who heard that polynesians hooked up with their brothers and sisters. Not too far fetched if you think of polynesian history.

Hope that makes sense now. I am not a liar.

[warriorfan808]

Funny thing after I read a lot of these posts.

When I was living in Washington as I was growing up... because I was Mullatto...(half black half white)

The town I lived in had a very low percentage of African American people, and because of this...there was a high prejudice towards African Americans.

At the time... I had plenty family in Hawaii...and to avoid the "Nigger" name tag that would have been associated with me... my parents taught me the phrase hapa haole...which at the time where I lived just meant Half White.

Funny thing is... most the people would think I was Mexican or Indian due to the large amount of immigrant farm workers in the area. (they were really considered the lower part of the social stratification in the area...therefore, using the words...hapa haole would at least get me away from being associated (by skin tone alone) with the (harsh words to follow...) "Spics" or the "Indians"

The word Haole can be used many different ways.... I have heard it used from a descriptive word to a racist word to a word that pretty much was mis-pronounced...ie; they said "hole" when it was spelled Haole however they thought the "A" was misplaced.

What part of Washington? I have family living in Burmington (spelling). I was suppose to go up there to live, but things changed. How's the Hawaii transplant population there?

[Jonah K]

Funny thing after I read a lot of these posts.

When I was living in Washington as I was growing up... because I was Mullatto...(half black half white)

The town I lived in had a very low percentage of African American people, and because of this...there was a high prejudice towards African Americans.

At the time... I had plenty family in Hawaii...and to avoid the "Nigger" name tag that would have been associated with me... my parents taught me the phrase hapa haole...which at the time where I lived just meant Half White.

Funny thing is... most the people would think I was Mexican or Indian due to the large amount of immigrant farm workers in the area. (they were really considered the lower part of the social stratification in the area...therefore, using the words...hapa haole would at least get me away from being associated (by skin tone alone) with the (harsh words to follow...) "Spics" or the "Indians"

The word Haole can be used many different ways.... I have heard it used from a descriptive word to a racist word to a word that pretty much was mis-pronounced...ie; they said "hole" when it was spelled Haole however they thought the "A" was misplaced.
Haven't heard the word "mulatto" used in a long time, I thought it fell into disuse along with the word "negro." :cool: It's somewhat interesting that your parents taught you the phrase hapa haole, while hapa pōpolo is equally apt. There's a great deal of politics behind the appropriation of the Hawaiian word hapa by the "multiracial" community (particularly those that have some Asian ancestry) to describe themselves. Here's a link that delves into the issue in more detail....
http://www.realhapas.com/

[warriorfan808]

sounds like all Hawaiians are hapa now a days. The most Hawaiian person I've ever know is my friend Trevor, I think he's 75% Hawaiian. The cool thing is, his whole family speaks Hawaiian.

[Pomai44]

The Hawaiian word haole is no where near as assaultive, :cool:

Using the word Haole in the race context, it's not the word Haole that is assaultive (Ho I like dat word) it's the word used in front of it. Also the word pōpolo is another word that has become misued because it does not mean Black, but over the years that's what it has come to mean by the people who use it. So in a thousand of years from now if you where to come back I would suspect that a lot of the words used today will not mean the same as they do now. This whole topic does not just apply to the Hawaiian language it really applies to most languages, hence "He's bad man" or how about "He's gay" and many others. When people say these phrases are they saying that the man in question is a bad man or is the man a really happy person? :rolleyes:

[alohabear]

After seeing the movie CRASH (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1144992-crash/) , I do believe that we are ALL racist in one form or another. It's the message I'm getting from the posts in this thread. Living in this wonderful place has just made us better people because there is no race the is the majority.

[newroots]

on guam they do a similar thing as breathing on each other... its called mangingi. to greet an elder (usually a relative) you take their hand and sniff it. their supposedly taking in or sniffing their spirit. so yeah.. another fun fact

[newroots]

yeah. i think everyone is racist in one form or another.. race is so important becuase its ones identity. around the world , most especially in the pacific oceania region , peoples identity are fading i think.. preserving that identity and its authenticity might come off as being ''racist''.. which i guess , it sort of is but , considering how colonized the pacific region is , i think its only fair that the indigenous peoples get a good hold of their land and stuff before its too late. ''native'' shouldn't be just another in ingredient in the melting pot..

in the united states , everyone is supposed to have equal rights. but i dont think thier will ever be a black president (at least anytime soon) , the reason being becuase america isnt ready to give up their identity as a ''white nation''..... thats a little far fetched but you know... white politicians think they'll be best in securing and handling america's issues.

[Adri]

This thread made me remember a discussion a teacher was having with a young student many years ago. The young student was using "haole" in a negative way to taunt another student. In explaining why the young student should not do so, the teacher told him that he was also technically a haole since he was causasian. The young student was very upset and said he was going to tell his mother what the teacher said. When he told his mother what the teacher said, the mother (according to the student) smacked him on the head and said, "Stupid. You are haole." The chastened student said all that time he thought he was Portagee. *g*

[kimo55]

undefined
I had been told that the word "haole" meant foreigner originally, and in reality, but that now it means "caucasian."
stop, stop, stop, everyone right there.
It means many things; according to the context. JUST as with many, if not all.... other Hawaiian words, do too.
Mainland semantical dogma can NOT be translated to da islands;
ONE word does NOT mean ONE thing. here.
k den.

[craigwatanabe]

In this case however, Haole has taken on a derogatory definition unfortunately. One of the sad truths is though that some of Hawaii's strongest opponents of the occupation of "Haole" are Hawaiians that have Haole last names like...shall I say: Trask?

[sinjin]

One of the sad truths is though that some of Hawaii's strongest opponents of the occupation of "Haole" are Hawaiians that have Haole last names like...shall I say: Trask?
To me this demonstrates that the issue is not race but culture.

I would blame state government for the fact that development does not translate into a higher standard of living for most Hawaiians and locals.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I don't mind the Haole tag, but I'd be curious to see someone throw around the G work for Asians or the N word for blacks/African Americans or S word for Hispanics. And if you missed it the last time, I don't mind being a Haole - it's not a sin. However, I have encountered several anti-Haole sentiments in the water - but I am usually able to diffuse them with my surf-ability. Sure, there have been occasions where a group of "local" thugs have pushed me to another break - I move on because I am not a fan of fighting and I'd rather catch 5 smaller waves than 1 bigger one. But then, I'm in the water waiting for a wave/my turn and I have to laugh . . . . a cute (and not much English speaking) Asian girl will paddle out and is "accepted" because they are not Haole. In any case, it makes me laugh. I apologize (sarcasm) for having white skin.
Aloha Ragin,

Haole is our word. If we were going to call a black person the "n" word, we would be imitating something else from somewhere else--and using that lense for that word. As for blacks, we call them Popolo or Pa'ele. As for Asians, we don't call them Asians, because we don't see Asians as uh, Asians. We call them Pake, we call the Kepani or Japani and so forth, without confusing ethnicities. And a haole is a haole. A slur is a slur, but seeing someone as who he is isn't a slur--its recognition. Take it for that, and don't give away your mana because you are seeing it for something that well might not be.

So relax. Plenty of everybody has all kinds of bloods here.

[Stephen]

I half heartedly apologize for the reply that I am about to type. . . .

While I respect Pua'i Mana'o's response, I must reply. As I mentioned, I don't mind being called a haole - ask any of my local pals and they'll tell you that I refer to myself as a haole. Your word/my word is a lame argument. The word haole 200 years ago meant foreigner (or no breath or foreign breath, etc) - not stupid white arsehole (which it has evolved into.) I absolutely respect the evolution of the word - idiot white people visit the islands (along with idiots of every other race/color/creed) and support the stereotype. And I know I should have been more specific about the Asian racial slur - I was just trying to make a point - the words are all hurtful and should disappear. In the same vein, since we're separating the variations of Asian descent, why are there not different terms for haoles of different descent - are the Irish/English/German/Italian haoles so similar that they require no differentiantion?

I feel that I must point out that using a racial term can be offensive - while it might not bother me to be called a haole (even with the expletives pre and post,) it does offend some people. It is all too often used in a negative manner as a racial epithet - and I'm not saying to stop using, but think before you speak (cause we all know I don't!)

No, really, I have not been overserved. Read the above ramblings with a grain of salt - they are tainted with the fruit of the vine, but that's not to say they aren't the smartest words put to internet paper today.

Ragin like a Mo Fo Cajun

[Mahi Waina]

Haole, honky, gringo, round-eye, paleface. It's enough to make me want to join the Aryan Brotherhood - except I'm afraid of guns.

[nachodaddy]

What I don't understand is when I cruise down the road I see in backs of peoples windows big ol' stickers saying; "Chamorro Power", "Hawaiian Power" and various incantations representing the hispanic and latino communities (all ending in the word "power" tho')

I have not seen a "White Power" sticker though. Do they even make them?

[blueyecicle]

What I don't understand is when I cruise down the road I see in backs of peoples windows big ol' stickers saying; "Chamorro Power", "Hawaiian Power" and various incantations representing the hispanic and latino communities (all ending in the word "power" tho')

I have not seen a "White Power" sticker though. Do they even make them?
I don't think its legal...I think you get in trouble for displaying one. Here in Oregon specifially Eugene you can be ticketed for it. :eek:

[nachodaddy]

I don't think its legal...I think you get in trouble for displaying one. Here in Oregon specifially Eugene you can be ticketed for it. :eek:

So, is it a double standard???? One is OK, the other will get you a ticket???

Or would you get a ticket for having any variation of a _____ Power sticker in your window?

[Keanu]

So, is it a double standard???? One is OK, the other will get you a ticket???

Or would you get a ticket for having any variation of a _____ Power sticker in your window?


You don't see Hawaiians or Chamorros out there wearing hoods and burning crosses do you?

[nachodaddy]

You don't see Hawaiians or Chamorros out there wearing hoods and burning crosses do you?

So, if I follow your train of thought, all white people wear hoods and burn crosses. Correct?

[Keanu]

So, if I follow your train of thought, all white people wear hoods and burn crosses. Correct?

The "White power" slogan is associated with Klansmen and the Aryan Nation, or did that fact somehow escape you?

[nachodaddy]

The "White power" slogan is associated with Klansmen and the Aryan Nation, or did that fact somehow escape you?

So, it is guilt by association now????

Let's switch gears a bit, would it be OK to have an "Irish Power" sticker in your window?

[manoasurfer123]

What I don't understand is when I cruise down the road I see in backs of peoples windows big ol' stickers saying; "Chamorro Power", "Hawaiian Power" and various incantations representing the hispanic and latino communities (all ending in the word "power" tho')

I have not seen a "White Power" sticker though. Do they even make them?
It's called the confederate flag in the south! No words needed! Not like your going to see a bunch of Black people running around their car with a confederate flag on it.

[nachodaddy]

It's called the confederate flag in the south! No words needed! Not like your going to see a bunch of Black people running around their car with a confederate flag on it.

Great, another variable, and it is Manoa. I can play two games at once tho'.

So Manoa, if I read you correctly, if I have a confederate flag on my car that means I am a cross burning rascist?

[manoasurfer123]

Great, another variable, and it is Manoa. I can play two games at once tho'.

So Manoa, if I read you correctly, if I have a confederate flag on my car that means I am a cross burning rascist?
Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery, or of the Jim Crow laws established by the many Southern states enforcing racial segregation within their borders for almost a century later. As a result, there have been numerous political fights over the use of the Confederate battle flag in Southern state flags, at sporting events at Southern universities, and on public buildings. According to Civil War historian and southerner Shelby Foote, the flag traditionally represented the south's resistance to northern political dominance generally; it became racially charged during the Civil Rights Movement, when protecting segregation suddenly became the focal point of that resistance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag

No that's not what I'm saying.... however, many may see it that way. (but now I have an idea for your signature when I win this weeks football pickem)

[nachodaddy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_flag

No that's not what I'm saying.... however, many may see it that way.

Cool, because I am pretty sure you are not that close minded.............. :)

You gotta win first, and the rules work both ways so you better have two more in the wings. :) :)

[Leo Lakio]

Yes, on several counts, regarding the slogan "White Power." Yes, it is guilt by association with the crimes of supremacist groups. Yes, it is a double-standard, in that "Hawaiian Power" or "Irish Power" decals will not have the same effect (well, depending on where you are in the world; "Irish Power" may cause consternation in parts of the UK, such as Northern Ireland.)

Can you imagine if someone had a sticker proclaiming "Haole Power" or "Haole Pride" on a vehicle in the Islands? That car wouldn't be in drivable shape for long. But "Hawaiian Pride" is accepted without question - I believe that's nachodaddy's point.

It's the price any dominant cultural group has to pay for said dominance (whether past, present or diminishing), in a place where there are distinct cultures that are or have been dominated. At least we live in a land where differing cultural heritage can be honored and celebrated publicly. That is not the case in so many other nations - Zimbabwe, Iran, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Tibet, etc. etc.

[nachodaddy]

Yes, on several counts, regarding the slogan "White Power." Yes, it is guilt by association with the crimes of supremacist groups. Yes, it is a double-standard, in that "Hawaiian Power" or "Irish Power" decals will not have the same effect (well, depending on where you are in the world; "Irish Power" may cause consternation in parts of the UK, such as Northern Ireland.)

Can you imagine if someone had a sticker proclaiming "Haole Power" or "Haole Pride" on a vehicle in the Islands? That car wouldn't be in drivable shape for long. But "Hawaiian Pride" is accepted without question - I believe that's nachodaddy's point.

It's the price any dominant cultural group has to pay for said dominance (whether past, present or diminishing), in a place where there are distinct cultures that are or have been dominated. At least we live in a land where differing cultural heritage can be honored and celebrated publicly. That is not the case in so many other nations - Zimbabwe, Iran, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, Tibet, etc. etc.

Dang Leo, how are we supposed to educate the young'ins when old farts like you and me give them the answers?

You get the "A". :)

[blueyecicle]

So, is it a double standard???? One is OK, the other will get you a ticket???

Or would you get a ticket for having any variation of a _____ Power sticker in your window?

I know it's OK to have black power stickers ( I see them often here) but they say white power has something to do with propoganda and hate crimes and inciting problems.

I would have to dig for the articles.
Thats just here.

I know they had a big run up on a man getting ticketed and facing prosecution locally for have one on his car. Big news for the free speech advocates and race issues. It is a double standard (on free speech anyways) but what the heck ya going to do?? Small problem of many big ones here.

[nachodaddy]

I know it's OK to have black power stickers ( I see them often here) but they say white power has something to do with propoganda and hate crimes and inciting problems.

I would have to dig for the articles.
Thats just here.

I know they had a big run up on a man getting ticketed and facing prosecution locally for have one on his car. Big news for the free speech advocates and race issues. It is a double standard (on free speech anyways) but what the heck ya going to do?? Small problem of many big ones here.

No need to dig, point has been made, it is like that in many places, irrespective of geography.

[Leo Lakio]

Dang Leo, how are we supposed to educate the young'ins when old farts like you and me give them the answers?Sorry... :o Guess it's a good thing I never went into teaching; I'd probably get too frustrated waiting for students to figure things out for themselves - I'd rather cram my own twisted values down their throats! :rolleyes:

[Leo Lakio]

It's called the confederate flag in the south!And of course, how people respond to that flag will differ in South Carolina from reactions in North Dakota, Oregon, or Vermont.

[Keanu]

So, it is guilt by association now????

Let's switch gears a bit, would it be OK to have an "Irish Power" sticker in your window?


We are talking about Hawai'i. I'm sure alot of people here either don't know or could not care less about the IRA so your analogy is rather impertinent as it applies to Hawai'i.

[Bard]

I think it's sad that white people of various ancestry have lost the desire and the ability to be proud of their heritage in a non-destructive manner (the Irish Festival type, not the hoods and burning crosses type :)). I think part of the problem is that there kinda is a homogenized "white people" culture now which is shared among most of western Europe, the US, etc. So in that sense, yeah, it's somewhat appropriate to refer to all white people with one ethnic description.

It also brings back to mind something Pua'i Mana'o said earlier, about piko. It's harsh to lose your heritage because it helps to find one's way in the world to know where one came from (so to speak.. obviously I wasn't there with my ancestors more than a couple of generations back). A lot of white people in America have done exactly that though. Their "ancestry" goes back about 5 generations, to when whoever it was came here.

I just wanna say too that that discussion earlier inspired me to go do some genealogy, and I found some really interesting things. Scottish and Irish people for example have a lot in common with Hawaiians as far as having a foreign power come in and take over their islands, destroy their culture, and so on.

[Leo Lakio]

I think it's sad that white people of various ancestry have lost the desire and the ability to be proud of their heritage in a non-destructive manner (the Irish Festival type, not the hoods and burning crosses type :)). I think part of the problem is that there kinda is a homogenized "white people" culture now which is shared among most of western Europe, the US, etc. So in that sense, yeah, it's somewhat appropriate to refer to all white people with one ethnic description.I think a large part of that comes again from the "domination" aspect I spoke of earlier. European Caucasians were such a dominating colonization force throughout the world, and not that long ago, that the indigenous peoples of many of those lands didn't really care whether it was the British, the Dutch, the Spanish, the French, the Portuguese or the Belgians who they needed to overthrow and get out of their home.

All us haoles look alike, you know :D --- especially if we are an ugly and unwelcome invader, come to take the riches of someone else's land.

Except the Portuguese. Why is it that Potagees are distinct from other haole groups in Hawai`i? Is it because many of the supervisors of plantation crews (would it be correct to say luna in this context?) were Portuguese?

[sinjin]

Why is it some people act as though they've been out of town for the last 5 centuries? Whitey doesn't need to be reminded that he's powerful.

[MadAzza]

Except the Portuguese. Why is it that Potagees are distinct from other haole groups in Hawai`i?

Because racism is inherently illogical.

[Pua'i Mana'o]

nah, people can logically justify their racist attitudes.

Racism is inherently visceral. Its the way it feels in the pit of one's stomach that propels the hate. Some people get a "rational" or "moral" high from it.

[nachodaddy]

We are talking about Hawai'i. I'm sure alot of people here either don't know or could not care less about the IRA so your analogy is rather impertinent as it applies to Hawai'i.

I WAS talking about Hawaii. Try not to connect dots that are not there.

The question is still on the floor.

[Bard]

Why is it some people act as though they've been out of town for the last 5 centuries? Whitey doesn't need to be reminded that he's powerful.

This bothers me and I had to think for a while why. It goes something like this:

I guess the idea is, people feel a need to have "____ Power!" stickers because they feel like they need to remind themselves that they are real human beings on par with anyone else. "Girl Power!" -- women have just as much right to things as men. "Irish Power!" -- Irish people are just as worthy as any other human beings (early in the US, people used to hang out "Irish Not Wanted" signs on their businesses.. whee). Whatever. It's a reminder that you're more than the trash that some other people try to make you feel like.

How about hearing this all growing up: "hey ya little sh**, your kind, and thus you, are responsible for most of the ills of the modern world. go f yourself." So yes, there's a reason for it, for some.

I know not all white people care... when I think of a lot of people I know back in the south... you have a point. :( But that's just it: painting all of us with that broad brush is, like Spock said :), illogical.

[Leo Lakio]

Whitey doesn't need to be reminded that he's powerful.The ones who desire that kind of reminder, those who would most support "White Power" symbols, are often those who preferred the days when "whitey" was dominant everywhere, and are uncomfortable (to say the least) with seeing other racial groups as equals. In many cases, they may have had experiences that led them to feel inferior - and the easiest way to feel superior is to try to make someone else out to be the inferior party. Rather than work to build yourself up, just push someone else down below your point on the scale.

Having said that, I need to be very clear: I am in no way suggesting that nachodaddy fits this profile; I do not believe that is relevant to the point he is trying to make, and I hope everyone understands that.

[WindwardOahuRN]

early in the US, people used to hang out "Irish Not Wanted" signs on their businesses.. whee

Very common in newspaper ads. Just the letters were used---"NINA"---No Irish Need Apply.

The story was told to me by my grandmother.

[sinjin]

This bothers me and I had to think for a while why. It goes something like this:

I guess the idea is, people feel a need to have "____ Power!" stickers because they feel like they need to remind themselves that they are real human beings on par with anyone else. "Girl Power!" -- women have just as much right to things as men. "Irish Power!" -- Irish people are just as worthy as any other human beings (early in the US, people used to hang out "Irish Not Wanted" signs on their businesses.. whee). Whatever. It's a reminder that you're more than the trash that some other people try to make you feel like. That's about the size of it.

How about hearing this all growing up: "hey ya little sh**, your kind, and thus you, are responsible for most of the ills of the modern world. go f yourself." So yes, there's a reason for it, for some.Never said it was fair but something to think about before moving your haole keikis to Hawaii.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Except the Portuguese. Why is it that Potagees are distinct from other haole groups in Hawai`i? Is it because many of the supervisors of plantation crews (would it be correct to say luna in this context?) were Portuguese?You got it.

Back then, the planters didn't think of the Portuguese as "white people". They were European and thus a cut above the Orientals, but not really "white" the way Anglo-Saxons were. But they were still imported labor, usually uneducated and rural, as opposed to, say, the better-considered Scottish sugar mill engineers.

Remember that this was around the same time in the 19th century when the American East Coast was starting to see waves of immigrants from Central and Southern Europe -- Italians, Polish, etc. -- and those immigrants weren't really considered "white" either. There was an interesting Talk of the Nation program (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4714309) on NPR last summer about that.

[Bard]

Never said it was fair but something to think about before moving your haole keikis to Hawaii.

Point. :)

Sorry, didn't mean to get worked up about that. I just meant to say that you don't have to be a minority to feel the burn. That racism exists is a burden to everyone who doesn't want it, white people not being exempt as a whole.

If people thought more about their ancestry (and that of others), they might realize that racism is us vs us vs us vs... not us vs them.

[blueyecicle]

And of course, how people respond to that flag will differ in South Carolina from reactions in North Dakota, Oregon, or Vermont.
Yeah, here it's just another curtain! :p

[Leo Lakio]

Yeah, here it's just another curtain! :pIf it's in the right window, you could lift it up every day with a shout of "the South will rise again!"

[blueyecicle]

If it's in the right window, you could lift it up every day with a shout of "the South will rise again!" Good point! LOL j/k

It's generally in the same house or beside on with rainbow flag curtains, US flag curtains and let;s not forget Tye Dye curtains! Man I am tired of seeing flag curtians in this town! :p
Oh and let's not forget the HUGE wooden painted peace sign on the window outside the curtain! Oh and the dove....we are fond of freakin doves!

[Palolo Joe]

Can you imagine if someone had a sticker proclaiming "Haole Power" or "Haole Pride" on a vehicle in the Islands? That car wouldn't be in drivable shape for long.
One of my hapa cousins about 10 years ago used to ride around his neighborhood with a "Homegrown Haole" decal on his car.

He lived in Nanakuli. Never had a problem. Then again, he also had Hawaiian and Samoan blood... but definitely pulled more of the haole side.

It's not the use of the word haole... it's the words you use in conjunction with it...

[nachodaddy]

Point. :)

Sorry, didn't mean to get worked up about that. I just meant to say that you don't have to be a minority to feel the burn. That racism exists is a burden to everyone who doesn't want it, white people not being exempt as a whole.

If people thought more about their ancestry (and that of others), they might realize that racism is us vs us vs us vs... not us vs them.

Excellent points all and in all. I really like the last one tho'. Who we are versus who we think we are (or are supposed to be for that matter). Another wrench in the works is when we find out who we are is based on what other people think we should be (or it's evil twin, the one that exists only to be a mirror of what we want to be the most). A big conundrum, an even bigger conundrum when the hate goes away and the veil comes off. Naked. Maybe, for the first time.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

Bloody Brits. Screwed the world up for everyone. :)

[Whitepoint3rchum]

The ones who desire that kind of reminder, those who would most support "White Power" symbols, are often those who preferred the days when "whitey" was dominant everywhere, and are uncomfortable (to say the least) with seeing other racial groups as equals. In many cases, they may have had experiences that led them to feel inferior - and the easiest way to feel superior is to try to make someone else out to be the inferior party. Rather than work to build yourself up, just push someone else down below your point on the scale.

Having said that, I need to be very clear: I am in no way suggesting that nachodaddy fits this profile; I do not believe that is relevant to the point he is trying to make, and I hope everyone understands that.


Isn't nachodaddy Asian? I'm pretty sure he commented on that in one of his posts on another thread.

[nachodaddy]

Isn't nachodaddy Asian? I'm pretty sure he commented on that in one of his posts on another thread.

Why, yes, yes I am. Did I do something or say something to the contrary?

[nachodaddy]

Actually I am Oriental, does that change anything?

[Whitepoint3rchum]

It sucks to have an affiliation just based on skin color with peoples of the past percieved as screwing up the world, but how did this happen? How is it that most people think of the white man as the powerful majority when there are probably more people in the country of China than the whole of Western Europe? It's interesting to me that the white cutures, despite being at a numbers disadvantage, managed to screw the world up so bad. Is it better weaponry? A more ruthless and cut-throat approach developed from living in a harsh european environment? Is it that the europeans got tired of killing each other by and large and so plotted against the rest of earths inhabitants? (Yes that last one was a joke...) It's very interesting to me how so few came to dominate the world way back and even though lands have been returned to indigenous peoples they are still viewed as the oppressor. Aren't they trying to advance like evryone else? Just some questions, I don't know what my viewpoint on the issue is.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

Actually I am Oriental, does that change anything?
Nope, but in one of Leo's post he said something to the effect of him being sure your not a white supremist or at least he hoped so. I was just clarifying for him that your not white and therefore it would be even more illogical for you to be a white supremist.

Actually after rereading his post he doesn't make a reference to white supremests but I infered that's kinda where he was going. Sorry college has taken its toll on my mental acuity this past week. Once again sorry for the misinterpretation. Disregard spelling.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

Please disregard spelling.

[TuNnL]

Why is it that Potagees are distinct from other haole groups in Hawai`i? Is it because many of the supervisors of plantation crews (would it be correct to say luna in this context?) were Portuguese?Yes, you are correct. And you have probably raised one of the most interesting points on this board (except Maddie, who seems to think dismissing it is funny), since I’m sure the lot of us are now forced to go back to our history books and figure this one out.

[nachodaddy]

Nope, but in one of Leo's post he said something to the effect of him being sure your not a white supremist or at least he hoped so. I was just clarifying for him that your not white and therefore it would be even more illogical for you to be a white supremist.

Actually after rereading his post he doesn't make a reference to white supremests but I infered that's kinda where he was going. Sorry college has taken its toll on my mental acuity this past week. Once again sorry for the misinterpretation. Disregard spelling.

I would make a very poor white supremacist. Even with the sheet pulled way down low.

Go kill something on your X Box, it will make you feel better. :)

[Whitepoint3rchum]

WTF? I didn't say you were a white supremist. I said I thought Leo Lakio called you a white supremist and therefore I felt obliged to tell him that you're Asian. That's all. That's it.

[nachodaddy]

WTF? I didn't say you were a white supremist. I said I thought Leo Lakio called you a white supremist and therefore I felt obliged to tell him that you're Asian. That's all. That's it.

.........and I did not say you did. I am cool with ya.

Here: :) :) for emphasis.

On second thought, go smoke a bowl and try to DDR, that is always fun.

:) just in case.

[Keanu]

I WAS talking about Hawaii. Try not to connect dots that are not there.

The question is still on the floor.

You WERE talking about Hawai'i? lol, by referencing Irish people and the IRA?... surely you jest.

[nachodaddy]

You WERE talking about Hawai'i? lol, by referencing Irish people and the IRA?... surely you jest.

I jest right back atcha......... please engage the quote button if you are so sure.

My name is not Leo, BTW.

[Whitepoint3rchum]

.........and I did not say you did. I am cool with ya.

Here: :) :) for emphasis.

On second thought, go smoke a bowl and try to DDR, that is always fun.

:) just in case.


Ah see, this week has even annihilated my sense of humor. Damn I hate midterms...

[Keanu]

I jest right back atcha......... please engage the quote button if you are so sure.

My name is not Leo, BTW.

This is the comment in question.........

So, it is guilt by association now????

Let's switch gears a bit, would it be OK to have an "Irish Power" sticker in your window?


Okay, I'll bite and answer your question. Sure... you'd be hard pressed to find Hawaiians who hold Ireland and Irish businessmen responsible for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy. So Irish are white too, sure but they are not arrogant racist America white.

[nachodaddy]

Okay, I'll bite and answer your question. Sure... you'd be hard pressed to find Hawaiians who hold Ireland and Irish businessmen responsible for the overthrow of the Hawaiian Monarchy. So Irish are white too, sure but they are not arrogant racist America white.

Ya see, no IRA involved. Thanks for the answer. I think I understand where you are coming from but I just want to make sure.

"Irish Power" is OK but "Scottish Power" is not, correct?

[Pua'i Mana'o]

As I mentioned, I don't mind being called a haole - ask any of my local pals and they'll tell you that I refer to myself as a haole. Your word/my word is a lame argument. The word haole 200 years ago meant foreigner (or no breath or foreign breath, etc) - not stupid white arsehole (which it has evolved into.) I absolutely respect the evolution of the word -
Ragin like a Mo Fo Cajun


a couple of things here:

1) cultural lens isn't a "lame argument". Its the truth