Grading the Public Schools

[pzarquon]

For the second year, Honolulu Magazine has published a list ranking Hawaii's public schools. Based on six criteria, the data collected by the Department of Education itself, they graded a system that might otherwise be impossible to grade objectively.

Schools with incomplete datasets got better "average scores," so the linear list isn't entirely accurate. Limiting it to those schools that had all data available (math and reading scores, satisfaction of students, teachers, and parents, etc.), we have Honolulu Magazine's:

Top 10 Schools:

Momilani Elementary
Kahala Elementary
Noelani Elementary
Ma`ema`e Elementary
Wilson Elementary
Koko Head Elementary
`Aikahi Elementary
Pearlridge Elementary
Mililani Mauka Elementary
Lunalilo Elementary


Bottom 10 Schools:

Wai`anae Intermediate
Nanakuli High & Intermediate
Wai`anae High
Campbell High
Waipahu High
Ka`u High & Palama Elementary
Laupahoehoe High & Elementary
Wai`anae Elementary
Moloka`i High & Elementary
`Ilima Intermediate

[Glen Miyashiro]

I have really conflicting emotions about Honolulu's approach to this topic.

On the one hand, as a middle-class parent of public school kids, my knee-jerk reaction is to roll my eyes and dismiss Honolulu as only catering to the "high society" crowd. Between the Gucci ads and the articles on multimillion-dollar architectural renovation projects, it's easy to caricature the magazine's readership as a bunch of Manoa-Nuuanu-Waialae-living, Reyn-Spooner-wearing, rich private school snobs who always look down on the public schools anyway. But that would be unfair, and more to the point, it would be an ad hominem attack that didn't address the article itself.

On the other hand, no one is denying that the public schools are pretty messed up, and could be doing a lot better. Even Pat Hamamoto, the DOE superintendent, says so. Average math and reading scores are low. Classrooms are in terrible condition, and school supplies are meager. And while there are plenty of dedicated hard-working teachers in the public schools, there are also some who are just plain incompetent (and almost no way to get rid of them).

But simply listing the effects of the problem, as I just did, is the easiest and least controversial part. All the other questions are a lot harder: what's causing these effects? what should we do about it? and how can we measure progress in making things better?

In my opinion, Honolulu's article doesn't offer any real help on any of these questions. On the surface, it looks like a straightforward ranking - but the devil is in the details. Honolulu clearly explains how the numerical ranks were calculated, and I take their word that the source data are all as they say. But I have problems with the way they amalgamated the source data, and the underlying assumptions they are making about what these data actually mean.

As pzarquon mentioned, the scores are an average of the following percentages:


a poll of students: given a choice, would you attend your school?
a poll of parents: would you recommend your child's school to others?
a poll of teachers: would you recommend your school to others?
% of students at the school who meet state standards

Clearly, the goal is for all of these measures to be at 100% for every school. But does it do any good to put these numbers together and use them to rank the schools? Does it really tell us anything useful, that helps us with identifying causes and suggesting solutions? I don't think it does. For starters, what good does it do to lump "satisfaction" in with test scores? They seem like apples and oranges to me. You sometimes have schools with low test scores but an enthusiastic community, or less often, vice versa. Another problem I have with this article is that they "graded" the schools on a curve, assigning an even distribution of A through F grades, rather than an absolute scale. I think it was rather gimmicky and done solely to fit with the 'school' theme.

If anything, the article really only accomplishes two things. One, it sells copy because everyone is curious as to how their own school ranks. You buy the issue, look up your school, and you can be smug or ambivalent or relieved or embarrassed, as appropriate. (Given the magazine's readership, probably the first.) And two, it is possible that the low-ranked schools might be shamed into trying to improve their rank, as one school principal is quoted as doing with last year's article.

I guess what annoys me the most about this article is that it doesn't really help. It doesn't analyze causes. It doesn't offer solutions. All it does is put together a list, based on numbers that in my opinion may not even be appropriately averaged. But then again, it's not a DOE report with figures and footnotes and analysis, it's an article in a popular magazine. Maybe I was expecting too much.

[scrivener]

Uuurrrrrgh! This is the third time I'm typing this response, because I keep hitting the ESC key instead of the OKINA key!

You should have seen the first response, too, because it was terrific. The second try was okay, but not nearly as good as the first. So this version should be utter crap, but I'll press on.

I don't fault Honolulu its report. The article never claims to be a measuring device by which the actual quality of schools is judged (at least, it didn't last year). It's clear, from the published criteria, that this is a report on attitudes people have toward their schools, and that's valuable in itself, even if it only repeats what people might already know.

Yes, the survey is weighted in a way that favors schools in more affluent neighborhoods. There's something to be gained in knowing this, but I'll get to that later. I'd rather give my interpretation of these numbers first.

Children in wealthy neighborhoods are going to appreciate the education they're being given because that's what they're taught. They are unlikely to miss school except in appropriate circumstances, and they are likely to have some concept of "the future" and education's role in it. They might not love the work, but they'll understand (for the most part) that the work is necessary if they're going to grow up and live the lives their parents live.

Parents who live in these neighborhoods, understanding the value of education, will not settle for something they find dissatisfying in their children's schooling. They are likely to understand where problem areas are, and they are likely to do something about them. Nuuanu Elementary, for example, long known as one of the better public elementary schools on the island, had parent-funded and parent-administered before- and after-school programs long before the Waihee administration launched the A-Plus program.

Of course, you know what happens then. Parents from other areas are drawn to neighborhoods such as Nuuanu because of the school--parents who have the same values. When the parent-population is surveyed, these are not going to be the parents who express dissatisfaction with the school.

Then, there are the teachers. When schools such as Nuuanu, Ma`ema`e, and Noelani have such supportive parents and such dedicated students, they attract teachers. This gives administrators the freedom to choose the teachers that will fit in and work with the system that's in place. Better teachers mean better students. Better students mean happier parents. Happier parents mean better teachers.

In environments such as this, standards-based testing is not an unfair assessment tool.

Now compare that to schools in rural areas. No, rural does not mean "poor," necessarily, but it does mean, as a rule, less-educated parents. It also means, in Hawaii's case, a culture that values family so much that school will often be given second priority on a more regular basis. Attendance is often not stressed by parents in these communities, and family or work situations often make it difficult for parents to regulate students' attendance. Many of these parents don't just work hard--they work hard just to scrape by, often at more than one job. No matter how you look at it, this is just not conducive to active parental leadership in influencing the direction a school can move in.

It's not an appealing environment for teachers, whose jobs are difficult enough as it is without having to be social workers, too, so the rural schools tend to be stepping-stones for young teachers waiting for opportunities closer to home and in more supportive neighborhoods. I have been told on a few occasions of young teachers at Moloka`i High who fly home to Oahu on Friday afternoons and fly back on Sunday evenings. And no matter what anyone tells you, even great young teachers struggle in their first couple of years--it's okay, though, because they get better. But if they get better and then move on to other schools, the rural schools ALWAYS have the first- and second-year teachers.

All this would be enough to affect standards-based assessment, but when you throw in the higher immigrant populations at these schools, it's almost a can't-win battle. The unions won't let schools pay rural teachers more, and the state won't adjust standards for ESL students. How is a school with an immigrant population of 50% supposed to measure up to schools with children who will be third- and fourth-generation college graduates? At schools such as Honowai Elementary (where I went to school from third through sixth grades), the teachers should consider it a triumph just to have the seats full of students who make meaningful progress in a foreign place, speaking a foreign language.

An interesting study is Pearl Ridge Elementary, where I worked in the A-Plus program for a semester in the program's inaugural year. Pearl Ridge draws kids from the upper-income Royal Summit and from the much lower-income surrounding area (the school is located right behind Kam Drive-In, very close to several low-income apartment complexes). The administration at this school has worked hard--really hard--to instill in its students a meaningful sense of school pride. Its students have won national awards for work created in its high-tech video-editing lab, which has increased the school's exposure and reputation. I'm not knowledgable enough about the school to draw any credible conclusions, but here's a school that has a lot going against it, yet remains in the top ten. It seems to me that strong leadership and good teachers can go a long way in establishing a school's rep. Of course, Pearl Ridge's central location doesn't hurt it, either.

There's got to be more to the article than its allowing its readers the chance to gloat. Remember, Honolulu readership has a stake in what's going on in rural schools, too--educated, employed people are less likely to end up in need of public assistance and are less likely to commit property crimes. It's in the best interest of the magazine's readership to look at the disparity here and figure out what it's going to do about it, because it's a very small island.

[dick]

I hear people weeping about the public school system here all the time. As a product of public schools (Kula Elementary, Maui High) and UH Manoa, I can say that it all worked out well for me (even though I may not be the brightest bulb in the scoreboard). What many don't want to accept is that school is what you make of it. Just going there won't do a thing for you. Students actually have to study, and this involves studying outside of school. This is what education is all about. School is only one part of the equation. If there is no support at home, even the best school can't do a thing. A friend of mine had the same public education as I did, and is now a professor of mathematics at Harvard. But he did a helluva lot of studying outside the classroom. If you want it bad enough, you can get anything you want. One of the big things about private schools is that the parents have so much invested in that education they'll make sure thier kids learn all that they can and make it worth the money.

[Mocha]

You said it very succinctly Dick...education IS what you make of it. We were very fortunate to have saved money early enough to spend on sending our kids to private schools. I think they would have done fine at public schools but we had gone to private schools so wanted to give our kids the "privilege" also. The kids really do appreciate the sacrifice...they tell us now. They all have good jobs and are self-sufficient. BRAVO to you for telling it how it is. :)

[aleno]

As a product of Public schools in Hawaii, I agree with all of you.
I also believe more parent participation is key to the education of the children. Most of the parents probably didn't get much out of school, especially those they say thought of family before school.
The survey should only be used as a tool to regain control of parents having a say in the way schools are being runned. It would be nice to have your school at the top of the list but more community involvement is necessary. More parents need to take responsibility for their childrens education and become involved with the future of their children.

[Mocha]

Unfortunately at schools where there should be more parent involvement...the parents are working 2+ jobs and can't take the time to attend meetings at the school. Private schools have their own problems too...and some of the parents close their eyes to the problems telling the school to "just deal with it". :(

[dick]

Yeah, parent involvement is key. And I do realize that a big problem is that many here have to work so hard to stay afloat, so they don't always have the time and energy to devote what they should to thier childrens' educations. And that in and of itself is a sad commentary on the state of affairs in Hawaii. I consider myself fortunate and thankful that my parents were so bent on my doing well in school. The threat always lurked in the background that if I did poorly I'd be sent to a private school. I wanted to hang with my friends who all went to public schools (strange incentive, I know). My dad went to Punahou, and wasn't all that big on public schools (he cringed at my choosing UH Manoa, but it had one of the best programs in the country for my major - which is why I chose to go there), but agreed to give it a shot as long as I applied myself.

[pzarquon]

Not so strange! I considered private school a disincentive as well. My dad loves to tell the story of how, after he got through all the hoops you needed to jump through to get an application into Kamehameha Schools, I went to the interview. The staffer asked, "So, why do you want to come to Kamehameha Schools?" My answer was, "I don't." It was a very short interview.

I liked my public school experience, although I may have been in the minority. I say this even though I was the typical sci-fi geek outcast with bad skin, and a popular target of all sorts of pranks and harassment (particularly in Intermediate School). The masochist that I am, I see all that now more as "character building." I might not be a Stanford grad working at a New York law firm, but compared to some of my peers, I think I turned out okay nonetheless.

Besides... there are bad apples in every bunch. I'm sure we all have a story or two of the "child prodigy" that went off the rails.

To me, I see in myself a good exhibit in the "parenting counts" argument. I went to Lunalilo Elementary and Washington Intermediate, both "urban" schools, and was surrounded by heaps of bad influences (and got picked up by the cops myself more than once). Yet, people who meet me today figure I went to Punahou or Iolani, and it takes effort to speak pidgin. (Not that pidgin is a bad thing... I'd speak it well if I could!) The fact of the matter is, I'm more a product of my parents than I am of my schools, and both of them worked. Heck, my dad was in the Army Reserves and eventually divorced my mom, so I barely saw him. Yet, to my chagrin, a lot of folks say I'm a spittin' image of him.

I agree, the challenges for parents are only greater today. My wife stays home with the kids, but that's a nearly impossible luxury for most, and we make some pretty tough sacrifices to make it happen. But for parents who try, I think they have a great chance at raising great kids... at least versus those kids who are just left entirely in the hands of the state.

[Eric]

Not so strange! I considered private school a disincentive as well. My dad loves to tell the story of how, after he got through all the hoops you needed to jump through to get an application into Kamehameha Schools, I went to the interview. The staffer asked, "So, why do you want to come to Kamehameha Schools?" My answer was, "I don't." It was a very short interview.
Ha! My cousin tells a similar story about his son, who he badgered into an Iolani interview and aptitude test. The boy took the test... and got every single question wrong. On purpose. Now that takes talent! :rolleyes:

[dick]

The pidgin thing is an interesting theory. I was prohibited from speaking pidgin when at home, but encouraged to speak it with friends. Why? My dad, who grew up in Honolulu could speak it fluently, and knew that it was an important part of living in Hawaii, but at the same time knew that in order to function in "the real world" one needed to know how to speak "proper" English, without a pidgin accent. I consider myself trilingual (pidgin, English, Japanese (of all things)). I spoke "full-pidgin" when in school with my friends, yet was in advanced English throughout school. People take one look at me and think I'm from Seattle, but when I start talking, it's a different story.

[Kekaha Roots]

I hear people weeping about the public school system here all the time. As a product of public schools (Kula Elementary, Maui High) and UH Manoa, I can say that it all worked out well for me (even though I may not be the brightest bulb in the scoreboard). What many don't want to accept is that school is what you make of it. Just going there won't do a thing for you. Students actually have to study, and this involves studying outside of school. This is what education is all about. School is only one part of the equation. If there is no support at home, even the best school can't do a thing. A friend of mine had the same public education as I did, and is now a professor of mathematics at Harvard. But he did a helluva lot of studying outside the classroom. If you want it bad enough, you can get anything you want. One of the big things about private schools is that the parents have so much invested in that education they'll make sure thier kids learn all that they can and make it worth the money.

I'm a few years late to this thread, but I believe you've hit the nail on the head. IMO, education is what you make of it. I strongly believe the more support and active participation that a parent has with their children, the better they will do in school. Even though my daughter went to a Blue Ribbon school, my wife & I still had to dedicate a lot of time with her each week to ensure that she was getting all of the educational concepts down.

[manoasurfer123]

The pidgin thing is an interesting theory. I was prohibited from speaking pidgin when at home, but encouraged to speak it with friends. Why? My dad, who grew up in Honolulu could speak it fluently, and knew that it was an important part of living in Hawaii, but at the same time knew that in order to function in "the real world" one needed to know how to speak "proper" English, without a pidgin accent. I consider myself trilingual (pidgin, English, Japanese (of all things)). I spoke "full-pidgin" when in school with my friends, yet was in advanced English throughout school. People take one look at me and think I'm from Seattle, but when I start talking, it's a different story.
Dick that's funny... Me being from the Northwest... I would say you look like you come from the Northwest...

Now the funnier thing... I used to have a people tell me "you look local...until you open your mouth"

Now that I've lived here for 10 years plus... When I see tourists... I pretend to talk the worst pidgeon that I possibly can... !!! and they get a big kick out of thinking they are talking "Hawaiian" with a local :o and I dunno any Hawaiian!

[lissy]

I have a question that I would like to pose to you all. I am moving to the island with a group called Teach For America. Fifty-seven of us have been chosen to teach on the Leeward coast in many of the schools that are now struggling. I will be teaching special education in the 4th and 5th grade at Nanaikapono in Nanakuli. I am a new teacher, but my plan is to continue to teach in the schools that need me the most throughout my career. My father has done so for thirty-five years in the most struggling schools in New York, I hope to do so in Hawaii.

I am moving to the island with three of my own children. I have a ten year old daughter, a five year old son and a 14 month old baby girl. I am considering moving to the Makaha Valley Plantation for two reasons. One is simple economics, it is hard to get by with a teachers salary anywhere in the world. The second reason is that I would like to live near to the community I teach in since I realize that I have a lot to learn from community members about the culture and norms of the community. Also, I would like to be near my students and their families so I can have greater access to them and a better chance to help them.

That being said, I am concerned about where Iwill send my own children to school. I researched Makaha Elementary which seems to have the same test scores as many of the "better" schools on the island, if not slightly lower. I am looking for advice from people that live on the island as to whether or not you would advise me to live in Makaha with my children. I am looking to make the best decision for them, and am the first to admit that I have a lot to learn about Hawaii the Island and the culture of Hawaii. I thank you in advance for any advice you give me, it is truly appreciated.

Thank you,

Lissette

[manoasurfer123]

Lizz, I work for the DOE...

I commend you on what you are doing.

Unless you are planning on sending your children to a private school.
I believe you will need to send your children to a school that is in the place of your geographic region.

You may apply for a GE (Geographic Exemption) http://doe.k12.hi.us/ge/index.htm

That way maybe you could send them to a school closer to the one that you are teaching at... or even the school that you are actually teaching at.

I wish you the best of luck. You can also get general information at:http://doe.k12.hi.us/

Manoa

[lissy]

Thank you for your support, I appreciate it. Do you have any personal knowledge with Makaha elementary? My research indicates that while it once scored poorly on the tests, it seems to be doing better now...I would just like to know the opinion of someone on the island. Thank you again.

[manoasurfer123]

You can see the most public information available regarding the status of Makaka Students at this site.

http://165.248.6.166/data/school.asp?schoolcode=258

[manoasurfer123]

How is your kids school doing as far as others?

How does your kids school rank?

This is recent data on Hawaiis Public Schools... Click on your school for more info.

http://165.248.6.166/data/schoollist.asp

I feel it's important that we all know as much about our public schools as possible.

Manoa

[timkona]

If ANY child comes out of public school with an education, and does well in school, then it is safe to say that the schools & teachers are not the problem.

Send your kid to school clean, well-fed, rested, and with good behavior, and you will be astonished at how well our schools perform.

Pretty soon, good parents will rise up against bad parents in the form of grilling down on the bad/disruptive students in the schools. It will truly be a revolution.

[CranBeree]

i graduated from a private school. i went to Mililani High School for one year to try it out. I HATED IT. the teachers didn't care about your work they only cared if you showed up to class, if i were to question something they said it was talking back and being subordinate instead of having a discussion. my experience was so crappy. i wanted to go to public school - i went to a private school for most of my life. me and my mom got into it and after i had a taste of public school i told my mom i was wrong and please send me back to private! just my 2 cents :)

[pzarquon]

I'm a proud graduate of the public school system, and of Mililani High School. That said, I credit easily 97 percent of who I am to how I was raised by my parents. No matter what the systematic failings there may be in any school system, I am confident that parents are key to success... and that bad parents are more likely the cause of "bad students" rather than a bad school.

Even if you send a good kid to a bad school, the kid will still reap whatever benefits there are while continuing to develop into a good person via his or her upbringing.

Similarly, sending a kid to Punahou or Iolani or Yale or Harvard is no guarantee that you won't end up with a psychopath!

Was Mililani High School a bad school? Not in my opinion, especially compared to some of the stories my friends from other schools told. :p Then again, I'd be hard pressed to remember a single thing I learned in a classroom... except for "everything else" -- the stuff that wasn't in a textbook or on a syllabus.

[manoasurfer123]

I went to a public school in the mainland.

I now work for the public schools here in Hawaii.

Working for the DOE you see a lot of the problems.
It seems as though most of us in administration seem to put our kids
through private schools because we know how bad the situation is.

There are good public schools and bad ones.... Mililani High happens to be one that we consider a fortunate Public School...

My wife went to Pahoa High on the Big Island and that is said to be one of the Worst... (Okay Erika... Blast Away... I know you graduated with my Auntie from there and you guys came out alright.... ) however Pahoa has changed since you guys went to school there...

And I would certainly not send my child there now... however, many residents don't have a choice as that is the only High School within 20 - 30 miles of where they live.

[timkona]

Without naming names or specifics to CYA, can you eleborate on some of the problems that you see in the day to day workings of the BOE?

You don't gotta answer this question if you feel like it would put your job at risk.

[manoasurfer123]

Without naming names or specifics to CYA, can you eleborate on some of the problems that you see in the day to day workings of the BOE?

You don't gotta answer this question if you feel like it would put your job at risk.
I don't work with the day to day operations of the BOE.

They don't even work together on a day to day basis.

However, if you would like to attend any of their meetings... you can.
They are open to the public.

However, I can say from a personal perspective... I think if we broke up the state level bureacracy that runs the DOE and broke it down to a county or district level... I think things might be a little better.

They are trying to do this in a sense with the Weighted Student Funding Formula... however, to me this is like attempting to take from the rich to give to the poor... however, I don't think this will even come close to solving the problems...

The DOE here in Hawaii is a very complex beast...run by a lot of politics!

The BOE website can be found at:
http://www.boe.k12.hi.us/

There next meeting with a full board will be on Thursday July 20th.

It will be broadcast state wide on Saturday July 22nd at Noon on Channel 56 (all islands channel 56)

[CranBeree]

the thing i noticed between private vs public are the teachers..in private school the teachers teach you beyond just passing a test or the class, they push you to work harder, in public school as long as you show up to class and do mediocre work you get an A.....


i also think if you raise your kids knowing the value of a good education and to push them to go beyond i think kids will exel in any type of setting be it private or public. i do notice that private school kids get the better treatment though. the other sad part of this are some kids that graduated private and have done absolutely nothing with their lives/education.

[jimnyo]

You may apply for a GE (Geographic Exemption) http://doe.k12.hi.us/ge/index.htm


Manoa

does anybody know why this page has been taken down? has the policy on ge's changed?

[manoasurfer123]

good one...

thanks for the heads up... will look for other sources of info...

[manoasurfer123]

(3) Application for students who reside less than one mile from school, or are on geographic exception under section 8-27-5(c)(2) shall be made by submitting a written request to the school the student attends. [Eff 3/3/84; comp 9/5/95; am and comp 3/29/03] (Auth: HRS §302A-1112) (Imp: Hawaii Const. Art. X, §3; HRS §§302A-1101, 302A-1112, 302A-406)
http://lilinote.k12.hi.us/PUBLIC/ADMINR1.NSF/85255a0a0010ae82852555340060479d/46c3be2b8fd8e9960a2567600065e204?OpenDocument
a link regarding transportation of students.

But I dunno what happened w/ that original link...

Maybe too many people were printing it out and saying... see ... it says here that I can...!

Dang... I no can find it now... it really was there at one time though...

Interesting re-direct though :eek:
Information removed at request of responsible office. Questions? Please contact 692-7290 or email
wassssup w/ that? :confused:

[jimnyo]

yeah, weird, huh?

[Leo Lakio]

wassssup w/ that? :confused:Why not call the provided phone number and ask? :rolleyes:

[manoasurfer123]

Why not call the provided phone number and ask? :rolleyes:
Cause I don't need to know that badly!

And knowing the state... I might get bumped around to 5 didn't people on the phone...then a secretary would take my name and number and not get back to me until next year! ;)

[Got2HaVKaYaNoW]

My Nephews school I think is good and all but....

This (http://hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?p=100469#post100469) was my poor nephews experience just the other week.....I don't remember having all that in first grade..

[jimnyo]

i didn't call b/c i was too lazy, but i did send an email. they got back to me today. they said:

The GE guidelines and procedures are currently being updated due to NCLB requirements.
Please call our helpdesk at 692-7290 if you need questions or assistance with the GE procedures.

hmmm...

[manoasurfer123]

Which will take a few years knowing the way the state works...

another run around?

[timkona]

I'm so tired of hearing how bad Hawaii Public Schools are performing. If one kid graduates, and goes to Harvard, it's pretty safe to say that the schools are a success. Aren't all created equal? If Janie can read, what's Johnny's problem?

Nobody wants to cast blame on parents who send underfed, underslept, under-behaved, brats to a perceived baby-sitter. Those same parents will bad-mouth intelligent, hard working, successful people, who they perceive as the bad guys in their lives, rather than pointing out role-models for their children.

That's right Crackpipe Carla. I'm talking about you. And you too, Welfare William. Oh, and I almost forgot Tent-Town Tittah. Got 6 kids, with 4 different fathers, and can't figure out how to pay for them all. Duh.

Now that I read, on Thursday mornings, to the kids at my daughters school, I have seen the problem with Hawaii Public Schools. It's the families. Fercrisakes, there is one 3rd grader who is just starting to read finally. Breaks my heart. But I focus on that kid, and I know they gonna make it.

Somebody gotta say it !! It's the balls truth.

The problem with Hawaii Public Schools can be found in some families. The tragedy is that it only takes one kid to disrupt a class of 30.

And then you got the apologists, who say that more resources should be aimed at the disruptive kid, rather than the other 29 who can behave themselves and want to learn.

Put the paddle back in the classroom, and watch test scores skyrocket.

arrrrrrgggghhhhhhh !!!

ps - The times are changing to where parents, like me, are starting to point out, label, and complain vociferously about the select kids who are the problems. This subject is a real sore-spot with me now that my kid is starting school.

[manoasurfer123]

I'm so tired of hearing how bad Hawaii Public Schools are performing. If one kid graduates, and goes to Harvard, it's pretty safe to say that the schools are a success. Aren't all created equal? If Janie can read, what's Johnny's problem?

Nobody wants to cast blame on parents who send underfed, underslept, under-behaved, brats to a perceived baby-sitter. Those same parents will bad-mouth intelligent, hard working, successful people, who they perceive as the bad guys in their lives, rather than pointing out role-models for their children.

That's right Crackpipe Carla. I'm talking about you. And you too, Welfare William. Oh, and I almost forgot Tent-Town Tittah. Got 6 kids, with 4 different fathers, and can't figure out how to pay for them all. Duh.

Now that I read, on Thursday mornings, to the kids at my daughters school, I have seen the problem with Hawaii Public Schools. It's the families. Fercrisakes, there is one 3rd grader who is just starting to read finally. Breaks my heart. But I focus on that kid, and I know they gonna make it.

Somebody gotta say it !! It's the balls truth.

The problem with Hawaii Public Schools can be found in some families. The tragedy is that it only takes one kid to disrupt a class of 30.

And then you got the apologists, who say that more resources should be aimed at the disruptive kid, rather than the other 29 who can behave themselves and want to learn.

Put the paddle back in the classroom, and watch test scores skyrocket.

arrrrrrgggghhhhhhh !!!

ps - The times are changing to where parents, like me, are starting to point out, label, and complain vociferously about the select kids who are the problems. This subject is a real sore-spot with me now that my kid is starting school.
What you on tonight TK?

I'm not on any kine battle juice right now... baby and family are up...

But if this thread is still alive by next monday....

I get some input on this latest one....

[TuNnL]

Knowing the state... I might get bumped around to 5 didn't people on the phone...then a secretary would take my name and number and not get back to me until next year! ;)This is exactly what happened to me when I tried to inform the Office of Elections that my name was misspelled on the absentee ballot they mailed me! First the lady told me, “Oh, I’m sorry. Absentee ballots are handled by the city clerk’s office. You have to call them directly.” So I call the city clerk’s office and the guy tells me, “Oh, I’m sorry. I will have to have the appropriate person call you. Give me your phone number and they will get back to you.”

Guess what.

They never got back to me!!! I actually had to call the office again and remind them that it was their office that told me they would have an answer. The woman at that point told me, “we’ll change it to the correct spelling in our system.”

So as of this writing, I still don’t know whether my absentee ballot will count because it has the wrong spelling, and now they’ve changed their records to reflect the correct spelling! If this sounds confusing, imagine if you were the one who had this problem.

[Glen Miyashiro]

My God. I agree with Tim! :eek:

[timkona]

Glen.....you're comin around. There's is still hope the schools, but it's gonna take years to undo what the last 30 years hath wrought.

[manoasurfer123]

This is exactly what happened to me when I tried to inform the Office of Elections that my name was misspelled on the absentee ballot they mailed me! First the lady told me, “Oh, I’m sorry. Absentee ballots are handled by the city clerk’s office. You have to call them directly.” So I call the city clerk’s office and the guy tells me, “Oh, I’m sorry. I will have to have the appropriate person call you. Give me your phone number and they will get back to you.”

Guess what.

They never got back to me!!! I actually had to call the office again and remind them that it was their office that told me they would have an answer. The woman at that point told me, “we’ll change it to the correct spelling in our system.”

So as of this writing, I still don’t know whether my absentee ballot will count because it has the wrong spelling, and now they’ve changed their records to reflect the correct spelling! If this sounds confusing, imagine if you were the one who had this problem.
Did you tell them it was a Capital N and a Capital L in your name? :p

[Glen Miyashiro]

Glen.....you're comin around. There's is still hope the schools, but it's gonna take years to undo what the last 30 years hath wrought.Tim, we probably still differ (strongly!) on what the best solution is, but I completely agree with you on the problem.

Like I've said before: if you want better schools, send them better kids. Parents bear the vast majority of the credit, and the blame, for how their kids turn out. So for me, the real question is, what can be done (and by who?) to improve the situation so that these families are raising better kids?

[timkona]

The kids must get the basics of behavior, discipline, morality, as well as the 3 R's. If the former is not available in the home, that makes it even more imperative that it become the standard in schools. We can have basic morality without the interference of the "god" thing. But we cannot have basic morality in the schools if the teachers are continually stripped of their authority and absolute power.

[manoasurfer123]

The kids must get the basics of behavior, discipline, morality, as well as the 3 R's. If the former is not available in the home, that makes it even more imperative that it become the standard in schools. We can have basic morality without the interference of the "god" thing. But we cannot have basic morality in the schools if the teachers are continually stripped of their authority and absolute power.
Why is Writing and Arithmetic considered an R?

Or then what is the 2nd and 3rd R?

Reading, Riting and Rithmetic? (if were starting them with those 3 r's then were starting them out wrong in the beginning)

Reading, Raving and Relaxing?;)

[timkona]

Where I'm from, it was retin, ritin, ritmetic

[Got2HaVKaYaNoW]

The 3 R's I was taught was:

Respect

Resourcefulness

Responsibility

* did anyone else learn that?

[SouthKona]

My God. I agree with Tim! :eek:
It is almost unbelievable ..... but I DO TOO (well, 95% of it).

[timkona]

I keep trying to convince you idealogues that I am the first RepubliCRAT of all time.

[SouthKona]

you idealogues
Thank goodness the world has not tilted out of orbit after all, now TimKona and I are back in disagreement again.

[timkona]

It should not be surprising that you would agree with several of the positions I take on several different issues. The world is not RIGHT or LEFT. It is both, depending on the issue. And I am not "middle of the road" on any issue.

You gotta read "The Bell Curve". Put's the institution of education in a whole new light.

[SouthKona]

It should not be surprising that you would agree with several of the positions I take on several different issues.
Actually, it is not that I so often disagree with WHAT you are saying, as HOW you are saying it. (Please, no PC lesson).
But, let's not go there, we are getting along so well for now. ;)

[Pua'i Mana'o]

I graduated from public school. Spent my entire K-12 existence in them. Was surrounded by many gifted kids, had good teachers, and experienced enough rigor that I was bored in many of my college classes.

My children attend public schools (Hawaiian immersion/PCS). The staff is committed and the parental involvement is quite high. Aside from the legislative and administrative hoops that the schools endure, I am satisfied with the degree that my kids are being challenged and developed.

Sweeping statements of our public schools as failures ignore the bright sides.

[TuNnL]

The kids must get the basics of behavior, discipline, morality, as well as the 3 R's. If the former is not available in the home, that makes it even more imperative that it become the standard in schools. We can have basic morality without the interference of the "god" thing. But we cannot have basic morality in the schools if the teachers are continually stripped of their authority and absolute power.While recently I have actually sided with timkona on certain things, I believe this is his first post that I completely agree with - 100%. This micromanagement thing by the BOE of the DOE has really spiraled out of control.

[manoasurfer123]

so TuNnL then...what are your 3 R's?

[TuNnL]

Readin,’ wRitin,’ and Running Computer programs? :D

[Leo Lakio]

Readin,’ wRitin,’ and Running Computer programs? :DHow about:
Readin,’ wRitin,’ and HawaiiThReads?

[waioli kai]

In addition to the single Hawaii public elementary school attended over the past ten years by my children is another elementary school in the district where I and my wife have occassionally taught. As a teacher and parent experiencing such direct HI public education experience, my current position of teaching two different required high school science courses to mostly 9th and 10th graders has resulted in my possession of some very mixed opinions regarding the public education system in Hawaii.

Assigning a grade to each elementary school I would give each a B+, while for the high school where I teach, into which these aforementioned two schools' students are headed, I would grade it with the same leniency I grant too many of its/our students: a D-, and that is being gracious.

As no doubt in so many of our public high schools, classroom discipline is a big problem. For those students who care not one wit about being "left behind", those students should either be put in a disciplinary-work bootcamp for a few months and/or turned over on a full-time basis to our society's workforce: either one of or both such experiences should then be sufficient to allow such would-be students the experience they need to make a well-reasoned choice about whether or not they want to take advantage of the 12years of free education our society affords them.

[timkona]

As no doubt in so many of our public high schools, classroom discipline is a big problem

That's what I keep saying. And it's also what 4 of my friends who are teachers consistently say. Only takes 1 brat to screw up an education for 27 other kids.

And thanks to soft-shelled political philosophies for the last 30 years, teachers have been stripped of their absolute authority in the classroom.

Please refer to my signature for further explanation.