Hawaii's Gas Cap Law

[pzarquon]

Whether or not it can be fixed, Lingle has confirmed that she'll implement the controversial gas cap law (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/04/bz/bz01p.html) in September, as established by the Legislature.
"We firmly believe that (price caps are) the wrong approach" [DBEDT Director Ted] Liu said in an interview this week. "If a repeal bill fails, the gas price cap law is the law. I want to absolve you of any notion that the governor is not going to implement it, or that DBEDT is not going to implement it."
Like Hawaii's bottle bill (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=3126), it looks like this one's got too much inertia to stop now. If it can't be tweaked, the only hope is that it isn't too disastrous... else we'll be in pretty deep kimchee before we can back out of it.

Regulating such a price-sensitive and competitive industry is, IMHO, a bad idea. And of course, there's good evidence that this "gas cap" will in fact raise prices at times, as there are indeed places on the mainland that pay more for gas than we do.

The Advertiser has an interesting graph (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/dailypix/2005/Feb/04/bz01a.gif) (which rightfully notes we see more ups than downs, compared to other markets)... but I'd really like to see a line added for what the gas cap price would've been if the law was already in place.

[scrivener]

The gas-cap law is a lousy idea, for reasons you've already stated. Tying the price of anything to the price of similar items somewhere else is dicey. The economy is like the weather--if you could somehow do something to modify the weather in one part of the world, you're going to screw up some other part of the world. There are too many variables to confidently make one kind of adjustment like this without screwing up something else.

The energy-crisis in California a few years ago was partially the result of a price-fixing law where the state got too involved in the market.

As Pz says, if the law had passed as it was originally written, prices here would have been ridiculously, unnecessarily higher than they were when the prices in California shot up at a steeper rate than the prices elsewhere. Remember, the original language tied the price in Hawaii to the average price in California.

So legislators are saying they fixed it, but they really have no way of knowing that. There's nothing that says what happened in California couldn't happen in these other places that will affect the price, and there's no way to predict how dramatically something like that could happen.

The gas-companies here have been screwing us, yes, I know. The solution, however, is not to legislate prices by some totally irrelevant means. Fix whatever's CAUSING the high gas prices, if it can indeed be fixed. Artifically setting the prices is bad, bad, bad news. This is NOT what we need our elected officials to be spending their time on.

[Glen Miyashiro]

I don't think that gasoline prices here are too high, or that they need capping. Gasoline prices in the USA are artificially low due to oil company tax breaks that are so long-standing and so ingrained into the tax code that we're not even aware of them. If you compare with Europe or Japan, gasoline in the USA is a bargain. And everybody who complains about traffic should recognize that our low gas prices are partially responsible for the near-24-hour freeway gridlock we also enjoy.

[Konaguy]

Ok let me point this question ? If the oil companies are not gouging us,
how can Costco sell 87 grade gas at 2.34 a gallon here in Kona. But you
drive down the hill the Tesoro is charging 2.59 for 87 grade gas.
The so called gas tax argument doesn't fly here as I would assume when
I buy gas at Costco I'm paying the same gas taxes as I would be if I bought
at Tesoro.

[scrivener]

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=price%20gouging):
price gouging
n : pricing above the market when no alternative retailer is available

What the gas companies have done is not price-gouging, since, as you point out, there are alternative retailers. Now, what they seem to have been found guilty of is price-fixing: colluding with the competition to keep prices above a certain level, removing the aspect of competition that keeps businesses honest. That is in violation of the spirit of free enterprise, not to mention anti-trust laws. It is not a crime for businesses to set prices higher than they need, and in fact the laws of supply and demand almost dictate that. People have complained about high gas prices, but most of them are still buying SUVs and other gas-guzzlers. When the gas prices truly have gotten too high, people will drive less, purchase more fuel-efficient vehicles, and buy less gas. This will force the gas companies to lower their prices.

Costco makes the bulk of its money not on sales, but on annual membership fees. Remember, you're not paying eighty-three cents less per gallon--Tesoro doesn't charge you annual fees. Of course, for those extra bucks per tank, nor does it make you wait in really long lines. Nor does it insist you pay with a credit card. Nor is it located in just one remote location. Nor does it open at nine and close at eight. Nor, if you're feeling the munchies while you're filling up, does it make you guy twelve bucks worth of M&Ms if all you want is one small bag.

One could argue that gasoline in today's society is like water, electricity, and telephone service--a complete societal necessity--and therefore a public utility. If this is the case, local governments need to make it so and cut out the pretense that gas companies are allowed to run their businesses the way they consider most beneficial to themselves within the confines of the law, like all other businesses are supposed to do.

If local governments aren't willing to do it--and they shouldn't be--they and we need to back off and express ourselves via our purchases. If the gas companies lose enough business, believe me, they'll respond in as customer-friendly a manner as necessary.

[Miulang]

Up here, a gallon of regular unleaded is going for anywhere from $1.85 to $1.96 right now. Our gas prices would be lower, except our state government has decided to add about 25 cents per gallon for their take. Supposedly this is being collected to help with road repair, etc., but our potholes don't seem to be getting fixed as often as we would like. And then we've got another tax based on the price of your car (we renew our license tabs every year) that's supposed to be used for funding a light rail system for Puget Sound and another one just for King County to fund a monorail system.

Hawai'i gas prices have always been higher than the contiguous US, primarily because of the expense of shipping, so your motorists are kind of a captive audience. But a gas cap without also providing funding for public transportation is a little short sighted; if people perceive that the prices will never exceed a certain amount per gallon, it will not encourage them to conserve.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

There is a thing called the Costco cash card which you can use the Costco pumps. You can also use your banks ATM card along with only American Express.Since I'm not a member of Costco but my Dad is I use the Costco cash card.

The difference in gas is not 83 cents, but 25 cents between Costco here in Kona and the Tesoro down the hill in Kaloko. Generally that goes the same
with other Gasoline vendors here in Kona.

To me the other vendors of gas have no justification in my eyes to be selling
gas for 25 cents more than what Costco charges. I back up my complaint
by refusing to buy gas at anywhere besides Costco except in extreme circumstances.

[Miulang]

According to this article (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Feb/21/bz/bz04p.html) in today's Advertiser, if the newly passed gasoline price cap had been in effect last year, it would have saved the average Honolulu driver a little over $21.00 per vehicle. $21.00 is going to maybe buy one good meal at a restaurant every year (or 4 trips to McD).

The only problem with tax ceilings of any kind is rarely do lawmakers put a floor on how low the prices can get. What this does is encourage the enterprising businesspeople to keep prices closer to the ceiling so they can make more profit.

"..."If we could get more margin, we'd keep it," said Bill Green, a former owner and current consultant to Kahala Shell. "I know that's not a good public thing to say. (But) there'd be no reason for us to lower a price because we're already on the ragged edge."

O'ahu retailers contend margins on gasoline are low relative to high land, labor and tax costs. Profits on car washes, service bays and convenience-store sales typically are higher, Green said. "...

So how will the State pay for highway improvements without that extra nickel a gallon? Will you guys take it in the shorts in the form of higher State income taxes, because the gas station owners are not going to willingly give up any extra profit they can make for the good of the motoring public.

Miulang

[Miulang]

A consulting group in VA just released a report (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Apr/16/bz/bz01p.html) that was commissioned by the Public Utilities Commission that indicates the wholesale price of gas would go down if the gas cap is enacted Sept. 1. However, there is no guarantee that the consumer will see that 10-15 cent decrease because there is no ceiling on profits that can be made by the individual stations. As I stated in previous posts, the individual owners (and the chains) are in business to make money, and they aren't going to give up their profits without a fight. If some retailers leave the market because they aren't making money, it will drive the cost of gas up anyway, because it will become more scarce and you'll have to drive farther to fuel up.

One other consideraton now is funding for your light rail system. More than likely, any savings are probably going to be chewed up with additional taxes on fuel to fund public transportation.

The only good thing you guys have going for you is that the price fluctuations that we're seeing up here on the Mainland (like a 20 cent/gallon jump in a week) aren't affecting you. You're used to paying more than $2.50/gallon all the time anyway.

Miulang

[scrivener]

The only good thing you guys have going for you is that the price fluctuations that we're seeing up here on the Mainland (like a 20 cent/gallon jump in a week) aren't affecting you. You're used to paying more than $2.50/gallon all the time anyway.

Gee. For some reason, that's not making me feel a whole lot better.

[Miulang]

Well, the Advertiser (http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2005/Apr/20/bz/bz02p.html) and StarBulletin (http://starbulletin.com/2005/04/20/news/index2.html) have slightly different takes on what imposition of the gas cap will mean for Hawai'i drivers. I tend to believe the StarBulletin's reporting a little more---that if the gas cap is imposed, Hawai'i drivers will be getting a real crapshoot where your prices might actually go up pretty drastically, because the cap is based on the wholesale price of gasoline, not the retail price per gallon, and there's no ceiling on the amount of profit an individual station can make.

Miulang

[Moto]

Scrivener mentions a good point about Costco, with them being a Wholesale Membership Warehouse. Another factor that people often times miss is, Costco does not depend on profit from their gas sales to support their business. Their big profit margin is based on small profits on volume sales. They achieve that primarily in their warehouse, not at the gas pumps. Therefore, Costco can utilize a strategy of taking very little profit for each gallon of gas and using it as a loss leader to get people to join their membership and shop in their warehouse where they will make their real $$. I'm always going "broke" saving $$ at Costco.

On the other hand, a large number of service stations only pump gas and has an attached convenience store. They cannot make their profits based on volume, because their operation is too small. So they need to add a significant profit to make it worth their while to stay in business. The service stations that have a repair business associated with their gas sales do not generate sufficient business on repairs to simply break even on gas sales.

We should be lucky that these service stations are able to survive and stay in business even though they have an huge environmental liability with the possibility of leaking fuel tanks, or as seen on another link when customers come in and decide to fill their tanks while smoking a cigarette. For some, (and I am not one, for we have a Costco close by), a trip to Costco is out of the way or when the gas service is not open, and you need gas, you are really happy to see a 24/7 station available several blocks from your house. Essentially, that is what you are paying the premium price for.

And no, I do not own a service station, just trying to give another point of view.

[pzarquon]

Public hearing on gas cap void of key ingredient: The public (http://www.khon.com/khon/displayStory.cfm?storyID=4632)
What if the state asked for residents' input on how to implement the gas cap this fall and no one showed up? That was virtually the case Monday night at a public meeting held at Aiea High School... "At the very least I thought some more industry people, the retail station owners, who have been so vocal at the Legislature would have come out tonight. But there was none of that," said John Cole, state consumer advocacy director.For a guy who's a self-proclaimed liberal lefty, I gotta say I think this "gas cap" scheme is a bad idea. Gas prices are going up everywhere anyway... hell, state taxes on gas are likely going up too (which makes this plan even more ridiculous), and IMHO any plan that tries to "fix" the open marketplace is almost guaranteed to make things worse (i.e. how does capping wholesale prices guarantee any relief at the retail level?).

Anyway, whether or not you support this thing, for information on upcoming meetings (neighbor islands, now), visit the Department of Commerce & Consumer Affairs (http://www.hawaii.gov/dcca/areas/dca/) site.

[scrivener]

Come . . . to the LIGHT side, PZ!
The Libertarians are calling you . . .

[Surfingfarmboy]

Did any one happen to see on the news yesterday that a Shell station in Malibu, CA is charging $3.29 to $3.49 a gallon? The report didn't make reference if this was the prevailing price of gas in the Malibu area, or if it was an isolated station.

Gasoline here in Rhode Island is generally about $2.22-2.25; go across the border into Massachusetts, and one can find it for about a nickel less per gallon.

I mention this, with the higher prices of gas we've seen of late, because I tell all my friends and acqaintences here that the prices one sees listed on the price signs at the gas stations reminds me of the prices I used to see when I lived in Hawai'i, relative to mainland gas prices. I remember when there was such a marked difference between mainland and Hawai'i gas prices; now there really isn't that much of a significant difference, or in some (rare) instances, Hawai'i has even lower prices than the prevailing prices, say in San Francisco or Chicago.

[pzarquon]

Come . . . to the LIGHT side, PZ!
The Libertarians are calling you . . .I've heard the call before. :p On quick read, the fit seems better (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian) than most. (And hell, they had Erin O'Bryn (http://www.hawaiithreads.com/showthread.php?t=2641) as a candidate!) If I bother to answer it, though, I end up getting thrown back in. I'm pretty much too inconsistent to be anything but trouble for any organized movement. I merely self identify as a commie pinko tree-hugging hippy leftist because I'd rather get the pigeonholing out of the way first, then get to the real discussion.
I remember when there was such a marked difference between mainland and Hawai'i gas prices; now there really isn't that much of a significant difference, or in some (rare) instances, Hawai'i has even lower prices than the prevailing prices, say in San Francisco or Chicago.Absolutely, and this is happening more and more often, which is finally generating skepticism that our market is really that far out of step, especially accounting for transportation and tax costs. The ridiculous formula the "gas cap" is based on, therefore, can conceivably (and I'd say will most likely) give us prices higher than what they'd be naturally. In fact, the original formula - which focused on the West Coast only - was definitely going to mean higher prices. I sincerely doubt politicians can get something right that even economists fear to tackle. So my preference is that they just butt out and focus on other issues.

[mel]

With the gas cap law kicking in soon and prices tied to the mainland, gas could indeed cost more thus adding to the cumulative cost of Hawaii's ever increasing cost of living. Remember it was the pinko, left leaning Democrats in the Hawaii legislature who pushed this law through. And mostly they are the same people responsible for forcing the the GE Tax increase down our throats along with a host of other tax increases they concocted this past legislative session to rob even more money out of our wallets.

Get these damn red diaper doper babies out of office already. Enough is enough. Our wallets are aching.

http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[Konaguy]

Mel, I guess you want to pay $3, 4$, $5 a gallon for gas ? But seriously
I'm not sure a gas cap is going to work. I really don't know if there is
a solution....it is just annoying the price goes up up up :(

[pzarquon]

Look at Europe and other "first world" nations with exhausted natural resources. We'll be paying $5 a gallon, eventually. It's not a matter of if, but when. No one likes paying more for gas, but a gas cap is shortsighted and will potentially backfire. The solution that's simply too big to swallow is to reduce our consumption, not meddle with the price.

[mel]

Mel, I guess you want to pay $3, 4$, $5 a gallon for gas ? But seriously
I'm not sure a gas cap is going to work. I really don't know if there is
a solution....it is just annoying the price goes up up up :(

Kind of funny response from someone supposedly trying to ignore me.

Well I am sure you know that if the gas cap is tied to the now higher prices in some states, that our own prices will go higher too.

Don't forget Hawaii has the highest gas taxes in the U.S. I have long been advocating a reduction of the gas tax but of course none of the pinko socialistic communist Democrats want anything to do with this....

So Hawaii remains in a gas tax hell quagmire of continued high prices that will top $3 or more by the end of the year if not next.

And yes, like everyone over here, I am against paying higher prices for anything, especially taxes (which the legislature is socking it to us with the GE tax increase) and gasoline. That said, we will continue to buy gasoline no matter how much it costs because as red blooded Pontiac Montana, Toyota Corolla, Ford Ranger XL owning Americans, we all love our vehicles... new and old. Damn if we will abandon them and ride some awful tax train.

http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[Miulang]

Well, the State now also has to find a way to pay for the new equipment and additional staff it's going to take to administer the "Real ID" legislation that will get signed into law by Prez Bush because it got tacked on to the Supplemental Funding bill for funding troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. And the Feds aren't planning to help subsidize the cost of this to the States.

So how will Hawai'i pay for the additional cost? Through the GET or through additional gas taxes? Or maybe make it "pay as you go" and charge each license holder some obnoxious fee like $50 to get a new 4 year license? Pick your poison.

Miulang

[Miulang]

When I lived in downtown Boston, I didn't have a car. I lived right around the corner from work and whenever I needed to go someplace, I hopped on a subway car. I froze in the winter and boiled in the summer on those subway cars, but I never felt the need (or could afford the atrocious parking fees) for a car. Then I moved to the outskirts of downtown Boston and had to commute. I had a car by then, but I still used the subways to get to and from work. Then I moved farther out and finally started driving my car. If there had been a way for me to conveniently use public transportation, I would have gladly garaged the car except on weekends (drivers in Massachusetts are dangerously nuts).

I just went to the Metro bus site and had it calculate the fastest way for me to get to and from home to work (about 25 miles away). I would need to make 3 transfers each way and it would take about 2 hours total for me to traverse those 25 miles.My company would subsidize my commute by 50%, so it would only cost me $2.00 daily instead of the $4.00 it would normally cost me as a full fare passenger.

It costs me about $32 for gas every week to drive 200 miles. In a month, I spend about $128 on gas, excluding insurance and wear and tear on the car. A one month 2-zone transit card costs about $80.

It takes me about a half hour to drive those 25 miles each way. So every month I spend 16 hours on the road. If I took the bus(es), I would spend twice as much time on my commute.

At this point, it doesn't make economic sense for me to make those 3 bus transfers because it doubles my commute time, and time, to me, is also worth money (and more pillow time).

When gas prices get up to about $3.50/gallon is about when I think I will start using the bus and my bike to commute to work.

As I have said previously, the reason why your gas cap won't work is because it only caps wholesale prices, not retail prices. What will happen is the refineries will leave town because they can't make a profit and the remaining gas stations will have to import all the oil products, and that will mean your retail gas prices (and the price of all the goods you are getting GET-taxed on) will rise. And as long as there's no ceiling on the profits the retailers can make, you guys will be in a canoe with no paddle.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

"Said by Mel
Kind of funny response from someone supposedly trying to ignore me."


Well I'm not logged in all the time when looking through the threads. Hence
I get to see all your ultra conservative, obnoxious postings. I even got to
see your ditribe in another thread because someone quoted the whole thing.
Really mature :D.

[admin]

Take personal conflicts to Private Messages, or use the Ignore function more reliably, please. Just because you're not logged in doesn't mean anyone's forcing either of you to take jabs at each other.

[Miulang]

This may be TMI for some people, but for those of you who are really interested in knowing who's pocketing the profits, read this article (http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=8633). Those of you on Oahu can thank Costco for keeping your gas prices less than for the neighbor islands. If the Tesoro refinery goes under, you may end up with only one local refinery (Chevron) which could directly impact the amount and price of gas you can purchase, because the refineries mainly make jet fuel and fuel oil for use by the commercial airlines and the military.

Miulang

[Miulang]

And be grateful you don't live on Lana'i (http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=8635). Gas costs $3.23/gallon.

Miulang

[mel]

I'll agree the price of gas is very high everywhere in Hawaii and elsewhere across the U.S. The price of gas makes for constant fodder on the news everywhere throughout the nation. No one will debate that.

However, remember in comparison to other commodities gasoline as we know it is still quite a bargain, even at Lanai's $3+ a gallon. As I have lamented several times, Hawaii's gasoline prices could be lower if the State and Counties cut the highest gas tax in the nation.

That said, let's look at the price that these other commodities command per gallon. I am sure like Chevron, the firms that sell these products are also making a huge profit and laughing all the way to the bank. However as long as there is a demand, and someone is willing to supply these commodities, the price points are here to stay.

Lipton Ice Tea $9.52 gallon
Ocean Spray $10.00 gallon
Gatorade $10.17 gallon
Diet Snapple $10.32 gallon
Evian Water $21.19 gallon
Whiteout $25.42 gallon
Brake Fluid $33.60 gallon
Scope $84.48 gallon
Vick's Nyquil $178.13 gallon
Pepto Bismol $123.20 gallon

I am sure these per gallon prices are mainland prices and are not adjusted to Hawaii's shipping costs and taxes.

Has anyone figured out how much black and color inkjet refills cost per gallon? Some of us pay close to $40 for per tiny tank to replinish our cheap inkjet printers.

Go to this link for article and table (http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/2005/03/oil_starts_its_.html)
I am sure there are other similar price comparisons elsewhere on the net. A few years ago we did one in the Small Business News for Small Business Hawaii. The comparison was simular.

So is Chevron really a bad guy for pursuing a profit? The liberals around here assume that profit is a bad thing.

As long as we love our cars, we'll continue buying gas. I don't see that ending anytime soon.

http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[pzarquon]

So is Chevron really a bad guy for pursuing a profit? The liberals around here assume that profit is a bad thing.Mel, you're so ready with a knee-jerk anti-liberal remark, I have to wonder sometimes if you're even reading what others are posting. Miulang out liberals me, frankly, and she knows the gas cap is a hare brained idea. I'm a tree-hugging hippie leftist, and I, too, am against the gas cap. I agree that $2.70 a gallon isn't worth whining about when, as I mentioned, our friends in Europe are paying nearly twice that. And I maintain that if you don't want to pay so much for gas, stop driving SUVs, carpool, or go with mass transit.

There are many ways for individuals to reduce their consumption, which is the only sure way to save money on gas. A gas cap could easily hurt as much as it might help, and it's only a stop-gap band-aid trick, not a long-term fix.

[mel]

Mel, you're so ready with a knee-jerk anti-liberal remark, I have to wonder sometimes if you're even reading what others are posting.

Generally the liberal agenda is to attack the big oil companies, large retailers and big boxers. Most of them assume profit or even the profit motive is evil in a capitalistic society. Miulang has a constant history of posting many liberal points on this board attacking everything from President Bush to WalMart to conservative viewpoints.

My one line remark is a generalization since I did say "assume" in it. Who has time to read all of the links she and other liberals include with their points. I assume that none of my conservative links off this board ever gets read either... so it is the same.

Anti liberal remarks are used all the time by conservative radio hosts such as Rush Limbaugh to draw callers in to either agree or disagree. In this case my remark certainly drew you in.



There are many ways for individuals to reduce their consumption, which is the only sure way to save money on gas. A gas cap could easily hurt as much as it might help, and it's only a stop-gap band-aid trick, not a long-term fix.

I agree with you on this point. In my instance for years I have lived in town and make sure I work in town. Gas prices being high as they are, working and doing business in town assures me that my gas expensive remains low and somewhat manageable. It helps that I also drive a miserly old Toyota Corolla which does not eat that much gas.

So that is how I cope. Live close to the work place, drive a cheap running car. That works for me. I know everyone's cases are different.

[Miulang]

Miulang has a constant history of posting many liberal points on this board attacking everything from President Bush to WalMart to conservative viewpoints.

Mel, I thought we had reached a detente? I don't mention you in my posts and you don't mention me in yours? Or is this a "this only applies to you and not to me????"

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Mel, I thought we had reached a detente? I don't mention you in my posts and you don't mention me in yours? Or is this a "this only applies to you and not to me????"And I thought you had him on "Ignore"? :p It's my fault, Miulang, as I mentioned you in my reply. Let's not start this week off with more ruffled features, okay?

[Konaguy]

And I maintain that if you don't want to pay so much for gas, stop driving SUVs, carpool, or go with mass transit.


After reading a recent Maui News article on the gas cap, it made it sound
like it was a real bad idea. I personally am undecided on a gas cap. I would
definately be for it if I was stuck paying 2.70 a gallon for gas. But since
I only get gas at Costco and pay 2.399 its not so bad. Basically unless I goto Hilo, I will never buy gas from any gas station here in Kona besides at Costco.

My truck gets 19-20mpg [24 if I drive long distance because of 5 speed O/D].
Its less than my previous car, but there was issues with that car that caused
me to upgrade. As long as I can get cheap gas at Costco I'll be okay.

The suggestions you mentioned do not work for me as I work 6AM-3PM normally and there is very limited mass transit options here in Kona. Basically
if you want to go anywhere here you have to drive.

[Glen Miyashiro]

Generally the liberal agenda is to attack the big oil companies, large retailers and big boxers. Most of them assume profit or even the profit motive is evil in a capitalistic society.Well, not quite. My take on it is that companies, and people, and governments, who direct their behavior only by the profit motive will usually not do things that don't directly increase their profits. In economics class, all those things you can't put a dollar figure on are called "externalities". And lots of the things that liberals care about are externalities, like the worth of poor people even if they can't contribute to society, or the value of endangered species even when you can't profitably harvest and sell them.

So that is how I cope. Live close to the work place, drive a cheap running car. That works for me. I know everyone's cases are different.Agreed. I live in a old house close to town instead of a nice new (cheaper) house out in the 'Ewa plain because of exactly that decision.

[mel]

Well, not quite. My take on it is that companies, and people, and governments, who direct their behavior only by the profit motive will usually not do things that don't directly increase their profits.

I agree. Anything external to the profit equation is deemed as either an expense or an obstacle to business. There are lot of things like that here in Hawaii... hence our very poor business climate and poor business reputation.

Without profit, business cannot survive and as a result eventually, business either closes or cuts back.

[Miulang]

One size doesn't fit all; apparently the Neighbor Islands will get more "relief" from the gas cap (http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=8754) than Honolulu because of the shipping charges. Here is a report on the Maui hearing. You have until May 31 to send in comments to the Division of Consumer Advocacy in Honolulu.

Miulang

[Miulang]

On Sept. 1, the Hawai'i Gas Cap law will go into effect. I'd take most of the the comments from economist John Felmy (http://www.mauinews.com/story.aspx?id=11044) with a grain of salt because he is the chief economist for the American Petroleum Institute, but he does remind us that what happened in 1973 with gas rationing could happen again. And Hawai'i would be more susceptible to shortages because of its distance away from the main sources of petroleum and the limited refinery capacity (I think I read somewhere that the majority of fuel processed by the 2 refineries in Hawai'i is for jet fuel and providing fuel for the military). All it would take is one breaking news story over da "Coconut Wireless" like what happened last week on Moloka'i, and Oahu would be in gridlock city at the fuel pumps. :eek:

Miulang

[Miulang]

Gov. Lingle has publicly stated that if the Legislature wants to hold a special session to consider delaying the implementation of the gas cap (http://starbulletin.com/2005/08/04/news/index9.html), she promises she would sign such a bill.

Gov. Lingle says she's worried that the law would cause shortages at the pump and wouldn't necessarily save taxpayers any money before there is no ceiling on the amount a retailer can charge for the gas. And since a gas station owner is usually a small businessperson, I seriously doubt that they want to limit their profits just to help out the consumer.

Well, the Legislature has spoken, so when the gas cap is implemented, the citizens of Hawai'i will just have to live with the consequences, I guess.

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

Ho all dis fuss about one gas cap. I mean if you lose your gas cap why gotta make one law for get one nadda one. Get plenty sitting on top da gas pump from da lolo's dat wen leave em wen dey wen drive off :D

[pzarquon]

Here's an AP article on our imminent gas cap law that was picked up by Newsweek online:

Hawaii sets caps on wholesale gas prices (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9071642/)Fereidun Fesharaki, an energy expert at the University of Hawaii's East-West Center in Honolulu, said the gas cap was "a stupid idea" that would be bad for competition and, ultimately, consumers. "It may make one of the refineries shut down and leave Hawaii," Fesharaki said. But state Sen. Ron Menor, the chief architect of the law, has said he is convinced it will lead to lower prices at the pump and should at least be given a chance.

[craigwatanabe]

I'd like to know just what kind of credentials Senator Ron Menor has when it comes to being an expert on economics? He is the architect of this Gas Cap law but what makes him an expert among those who are already economists and professors of such who are decrying this bill?

As a matter of fact other than knowing the legislative process by virtue of being in it, what are our legislators' experience in the area of business, commerce and such?

It would seem that when our lawmakers move into committee groups they should be including experts in the fields in which those committees were formed to meet for like gas caps.

Now that this cap is inevitable, there's mounting evidence that this will not work. This morning's Advertiser points out that if the gas caps were inacted a year ago, prices would have been somewhat higher. If this news story can figure out the process, why couldn't our government leaders?

Why why why? But then again our Government leaders only do bandaid fixes not long term.

[Miulang]

Ooooh...you guys need to fill up your gas tanks this coming week to take advantage of the "bargain" prices (http://starbulletin.com/2005/08/28/news/index1.html) you're going to see. Next week and the following week will probably see the wholesale prices used to calculate the price you pay at the pump becoming much much higher because of Hurricane Katrina. The offshore oil drilling operations on the coast of LA and MS produce about 25% of the US oil, and the operations have been shut down and will probably not be restarted for at least a week of two until damage to the derricks has been assessed.

Not only will you see the effects of the hurricane on the prices you pay at the pump, but you'll probably also see an increase in prices for anything that gets to Hawai'i via plane or boat.

Miulang

[jdub]

i'm glad i don't drive...drivers here are doomed to skyrocketing costs at the pump, with no end in sight...what truly sucks for me is that my cab fares are going to spike significantly, too, cutting into my profit margin when i have to cab it to my gigs...bastards!

[Palolo Joe]

Not only will you see the effects of the hurricane on the prices you pay at the pump, but you'll probably also see an increase in prices for anything that gets to Hawai'i via plane or boat.
Ummm.... duh? It's not like we've never seen a hurricane hit the U.S. mainland before.

[mel]

Click on this link to go to the Hawaii State Public Utilities website (http://www.hawaii.gov/budget/puc/gascaps/) to get the latest figure on the GAS CAPS.

Download the PDF.

Plan accordingly, then fill up your tanks.

Better to be full than empty.





http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[Miulang]

Ummm.... duh? It's not like we've never seen a hurricane hit the U.S. mainland before.
But duh, you've never had to see the kind of fluctuations in the price of a gallon of gas that you'll see now that you have that gas cap, especially since the Gulf Coast is one of the areas in the "basket" that's being used to figure out the wholesale price of gas in Hawai'i. That's duh difference.

From a Reuters (http://money.cnn.com/2005/08/28/news/international/bc.markets.oil.reut/index.htm) report out of Sydney (reporting tomorrow's news):

"...U.S. oil prices surged to a record above $70 a barrel on Monday as one of the country's biggest storms tore through the U.S. Gulf of Mexico, forcing oil producers and refiners to shut down operations.

U.S. crude oil futures soared nearly $5 a barrel in opening trade to touch a fresh peak of $70.80 a barrel, surpassing last week's $68 high to the highest price since the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) began trading contracts in 1983. ...

"...Prices leapt as Hurricane Katrina, the eleventh named storm of what is expected to be an unusually severe season, threatened to do lasting damage to the vital U.S. oil and refining region, further straining an industry that has struggled to keep up with two years of strongly rising oil demand.

More than 40 percent of all U.S. Gulf of Mexico crude oil production was reported closed down as a result of the hurricane, with the total expected to rise significantly as more operators report affected production to the U.S. government on Monday...."

[Palolo Joe]

But duh, you've never had to see the kind of fluctuations in the price of a gallon of gas that you'll see now that you have that gas cap, especially since the Gulf Coast is one of the areas in the "basket" that's being used to figure out the wholesale price of gas in Hawai'i. That's duh difference.
The cap hasn't even gone into effect, and you're sure there will be "fluctuations." The only change is that prices are going to go up as the gas companies take full advantage of the law and raise prices as much as they're allowed to. Once prices max out, don't expect them to fall much after that.

Then again, you said it yourself. The Gulf Coast is only one of the areas being used. While other markets will probably reflect some of the same changes, they're not going to move in collusion - one would think the feds would get involved if that were to happen.

Even though I love my truck and its powerful engine, I think I'm gonna have to spring for a moped or motorcycle sometime soon. The savings will be obvious and immediate, and will easily surpass my initial expense. It'll probably lower my overall stress level a bit as well.

[Miulang]

I don't know on what day the pricing commission calculates the next wholesale price (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050829/ap_on_bi_ge/katrina_oil) for gas in Hawai'i, but the wholesale price of gas in both the Gulf Coast and NY markets increased by 25-35 cents today.

Miulang

[Miulang]

I feel badly for the drivers of Hawai'i because as of Thursday you'll be more at the mercy of natural disasters like we are. I wouldn't be surprised if gas prices up here (which until yesterday were around $2.71 for regular) go up another 25 cents or so, which probably will push your gas price (http://starbulletin.com/2005/08/30/news/index3.html) for regular over the $3/gallon mark. Fill up your tanks before Sept. 5.

Miulang

[Palolo Joe]

Umm... duh again. This whole thread is about how gas prices will go up when the cap goes into effect.

[Miulang]

All I can say is I sure hope your State Legislature sticks to its guns. The general consensus (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050830/BUSINESS/508300317/1071) of most people up here is that that gas cap ain't gonna work. And I bet Gov. Lingle will drag her feet for awhile to punish you guys while you watch your gas prices go through the roof like ours is. The price of gas went up at least 8 cents today up here compared to pre-Katrina. And we don't even get our gas from the Gulf Coast...our refineries are all here on the West Coast. :eek:

Miulang

[Palolo Joe]

All I can say is I sure hope your State Legislature sticks to its guns. The general consensus (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050830/BUSINESS/508300317/1071) of most people up here is that that gas cap ain't gonna work. And I bet Gov. Lingle will drag her feet for awhile to punish you guys while you watch your gas prices go through the roof like ours is. The price of gas went up at least 8 cents today up here compared to pre-Katrina. And we don't even get our gas from the Gulf Coast...our refineries are all here on the West Coast. :eek:

Miulang
Well, it's a good thing you're up there on the mainland with "your" gas prices and "your" refineries.

Hawaii has long been among the most expensive places in the country to buy gas. We know that, and we know it's not going to change.

You keep upping your post count with the same stuff over and over again. Why don't you give it a rest and wait until after the cap goes into effect?

Then you can crow "I told you so" all you want and feel really good about the fact that us Hawaii residents are getting screwed yet again.

[Miulang]

According to a news flash from the StarBulletin (http://starbulletin.com/breaking/breaking.php?id=3745), the baseline price cap for next Monday is set at $2.14/gallon of regular (upon which you get to add all the other factors from the chart that Mel linked to), which is 27 cents more than what you'll be paying beginning tomorrow through Sunday. Gov. Lingle has asked the oil distributors not to charge the maximum, but there may be some reluctance of the part of the businesses to keep their prices lower because they're afraid they'll lose money when the wholesale prices come back down when the Gulf Coast refineries come back online.

"...In calculating next week’s cap, which takes effect Monday, the PUC listed the baseline price at $2.14 per gallon for regular unleaded. That price was 27 cents higher than the baseline set last week, which was $1.87 a gallon, based on conditions in the three target markets for Aug. 17-23, before Hurricane Katrina made landfall. ..."

According to the story, the following week's gas baseline price is determined the Wednesday before, so I'm sure the local newspapers will have a story every Wednesday from now on letting you know what the baseline price will be for the coming week. That might help you decide whether or not to top your tank off next week or not.

Miulang

[Palolo Joe]

You keep upping your post count with variations of the same stuff over and over again. Why don't you give it a rest and wait until after the cap goes into effect?

[Miulang]

Rather than driving all around town looking for the best gas prices, be akamai and let your computer do the shopping for you. Go to Gas Buddies (http://www.honolulugasprices.com/) before you need to refuel, then make a beeline for the cheapest gas. I guess if you can stand the long lines, Costco is almost always going to be your best bet.

Miulang

[Moto]

If I was Chevron and Tesaro Refineries I would charge the maximum price the cap allows me to. Why? Although what Gov. Lingle is asking them to do is correct, in that the oil that they are currently selling was bought as long as 6 months ago, and did not cost them nearly where the cap allows them to sell it at, if I were those refineries, I would go up to the cap. If you wanted the refineries to be fair in their price, why was the gas cap law put in place? What happens when (if) the price of oil should come down and these same refineries are stuck 6 months down the line with oil they bought today and according to the gas cap, they must sell, not at prices at which they purchased from, but at current prices 6 months from now.

That bring upon another strategy that the refineries may have to play to survive, and that may be to become much like a stock broker trying to read indications of oil prices. I think that everyone agrees that because of Katrina, the wholesale price of oil is artifically high at this time. If I was one of the refinery executives, I would cut back on my orders and wait until the prices get back to the normal equiliberium (and you never know when this is until some time later, when it's too late to make the decision) rates, then purchase a lot. Another way for the refineries to survive will be that they will limit sales of gas when the cap forces them to lose money. Does the law have any wording requiring the refineries to sell product if they have some? If not, I would not continue to sell product at a major loss. That means that there is a chance that there could be a shortage because the refineries are not in the business of losing money. This is where the long lines and rationing comes into play.

Worse yet, they purchase a lot of product because they thought the prices leveled out and it continues to drop, and lose a bundle of cash on oil that they must sell below what they purchased it for. A couple of those losses may be cause for one of both of these refineries to fold.

Basically, with the gas cap law in effect, the people of Hawaii will pay the price, there is just a lag in time. The wholesale price for oil is being sold in accordance with what the refineries are purchasing today, therefore, it basically ignores the inventory that the refineries currently hold. For us consumers we will pay the price that we need to pay, it's just that it will be at today's prices, not 6 months ago. In my opinion, the gas cap law will not save us anything nor will it cost us more, it just makes the price we pay at the pump current (not at a 6 month lag). The danger of the law, is the perception it gives. If people think that the gas price will go up, they will rush to the stations and consume their inventories and create a shortage. If the refineries try to do the smart thing by buying low and selling high, and avoid buying high and selling low (they need to do this to survive) this too could end up creating shortages or cut into the 6 month cushion we currently enjoy.

Thanks Senator Menor!!!!

[scrivener]

Gov. Lingle has asked the oil distributors not to charge the maximum, but there may be some reluctance of the part of the businesses to keep their prices lower because they're afraid they'll lose money when the wholesale prices come back down when the Gulf Coast refineries come back online.
This stikes me as the very soul of governmental hypocrisy. Now, I'm not talking about Governor Lingle specifically, because she was opposed to the gas cap from the beginning. What I mean is that we first tell the distributors that we will no longer leave it up to the market to determine gas prices; instead, we'll set this ridiculous artifical price-cap based on ridiculous irrelevant numbers. Now that the cap is legally in place, we're asking the distributors not to use it.

This was a stupid, stupid idea from the start, and from the looks of it, it's going to get even stupider. This is what happens when you create new laws where they're not really needed. As soon as you say, "You're not allowed to do THIS," all the variations on THIS become evident, and then you have to keep adding to the law, saying, "You're not allowed to do THIS, which includes THAT, THAT, THAT, THAT, THAT, and THAT, but doesn't include THE OTHER, except when..."

[scrivener]

Even though I love my truck and its powerful engine, I think I'm gonna have to spring for a moped or motorcycle sometime soon. The savings will be obvious and immediate, and will easily surpass my initial expense. It'll probably lower my overall stress level a bit as well.
See? This is the appropriate response to rising gas prices. Palolo Joe decides for himself when the price is "too high" for his needs, and he makes the adjustment. Nobody is MAKING him drive that truck and he knows it. If enough people make similar decisions, the demand for gas will go down, and in addition to Palolo Joe's own immediate realizing of the positive consequences of his decision, the entire state will benefit when lower demand dictates lower prices, up to a point.

I'm not one of those conservatives who says the market is the ultimate decision-maker, but in a capitalist society, it's way, way, way, way up on the list, and our individual responses to the market are what we need to count on, not the interference of the government.

Gr!

[Glen Miyashiro]

See? This is the appropriate response to rising gas prices. Palolo Joe decides for himself when the price is "too high" for his needs, and he makes the adjustment. Nobody is MAKING him drive that truck and he knows it. If enough people make similar decisions, the demand for gas will go down, and in addition to Palolo Joe's own immediate realizing of the positive consequences of his decision, the entire state will benefit when lower demand dictates lower prices, up to a point.

I'm not one of those conservatives who says the market is the ultimate decision-maker, but in a capitalist society, it's way, way, way, way up on the list, and our individual responses to the market are what we need to count on, not the interference of the government.And from a long-term environmental view, high oil prices help non-petroleum energy technologies like solar, wind, biomass, geothermal and OTEC by making them more price-competitive and therefore making it easier for those companies to fund R&D to make them more efficient and more usable. Hey, biodiesel on Maui is actually cheaper than regular diesel fuel right now.

[Miulang]

. Hey, biodiesel on Maui is actually cheaper than regular diesel fuel right now.
The ironic thing is Pacific Biodiesel is trying to get enough recycled cooking oil from cruise ships and they have to go as far as Kauai and the Big Island for material. What would happen if (heaven forfend) the State pushed through a law like the one in Cali that wants the fast food industry to put stronger warning labels every bag of McD french fries? What if the demand for biodiesel increased exponentially in a short period of time because the price point is less than regular gas? Where would the cooking oil come from then? Do the restaurants in Hawai'i deep fry enough katsu to keep the supply of used cooking oil coming? :confused:

Miulang

[Kalihiboy]

With the prices of gasoline rising how much do you wanna bet people are wondering when will that rapid transit system ever get going over here?

KalihiBoy

[mel]

Someone earlier mentioned biodiesel was available on Maui. The TV news pointed out recently that there is also a biodiesel station available on Sand Island here on the island of Oahu. Some people with diesel powered Mercedes Benz are going there and filling their cars up with cooking oil or whatever it is that is contained in this mixture. The news report says the exhaust smells like french fries.

As for the train response, if people want to use mass transit now on Oahu, there is TheBus.

While people will continue to bitch and moan about the high price of gas, most will still drive their cars even if gasoline prices go up past $4 and $5. Sure many may make adjustments in their driving habits or even downsize to smaller and more fuel efficient vehicles.

Fortunately I never bought into the expensive SUV thing, so I can still be happy with my aging Toyota Corolla.



http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[Miulang]

If everyone in the country is very very lucky, more of the oil resources in the Gulf of Mexico might come online in the next week or so, and that will create lower prices (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050905/BUSINESS/509050328/1071) at the pump. Up on the mainland, we'll see the prices go down before Hawai'i will, because your wholesale gas prices are based on the previous weeks' wholesale prices for the Mainland basket. Our prices can fluctuate hourly up here. But I do think prices will be headed down in the next month or so for everyone. As of yesterday, the Seattle area retail price for regular was generally still under $3.00/gallon and that's with all the stupid user taxes we have.

Miulang

[Miulang]

YIKES (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050907/BUSINESS/509070339)! :eek:

[craigwatanabe]

Okay someone explain to me this...in this morning's Honolulu Advertiser the story indicated that, "Even though crude oil prices fell yesterday to pre-Katrina levels and gasoline prices on the Mainland appeared to have peaked, Hawai'i prices could continue to climb for at least another 13 days. That's because there is a time lag built into the state's new gasoline price cap."

So if the prices we're seeing at the pumps reflect a 13-day lag and Katrina's wake (albeit indirectly to Hawaii) is only one week old, then can we safely assume that in another week we should see a devastating double whammy when we come upon the 13-days since Katrina PLUS the new 50-cent wholesale price cap due to go into effect next week monday?

I went to Downtown Hilo yesterday and the price for super was an astounding $3.46.9 cents per gallon and is probably higher today as I write.

To me it's also safe to assume that the gas caps have driven the price of gasoline to today's highs without Katrina's effects because these price hikes reflect wholesale west coast pricing from 13-days ago, before Katrina hit the Gulf of Mexico. Next week the revised 50-cent gas cap goes into effect plus the fallout of Katrina. I think the prices could hit just under $5.00 per gallon.

[Glen Miyashiro]

"Just under $5.00 per gallon"? Craig, you're being optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if we had California style prices and went over $6.00. :(

[Miulang]

If it's any consolation to you, Craig, I think Hawai'i's high prices will start to moderate after next week. Our gas prices have held pretty steady now for the week since the hurricane (most stations are selling regular for about $2.83, although I've seen some stations ripping people off for $3.04/gallon), and I think they'll drop some more as more refinerines come back online. The demand for gas historically also decreases after Labor Day and in the past, that's when the prices have started coming down, too.

On the one hand, the high prices suck wet moose, but on the other hand, at least you can kinda play the game of finding the cheapest gas and filling up the week before the next set of prices is announced (every Wednesday). That way, if the wholesale price for the next week is higher, you can still fill up using the lower prices for this week. Up here, we have no warning whatsoever when the prices are going to go up; only when a natural disaster hits do we know to plan for higher prices, and then usually "only" in the 6-10 cent/gallon range. I have no idea what magical formula the distributors up here use to rig prices. I don't think they use a "basket" like Hawai'i does. We get most of our gas from the West Coast refineries.

Miulang

[mel]

HONOLULU -- Hawaii's Public Utilities Commission Wednesday issued a 45-cent increase in the wholesale price for gasoline for next week.

This from KITV 4's HawaiiChannel.com (http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/money/4945847/detail.html) website.

Time to GET RID of the Gas Caps. It's a disaster for Hawaii's businesses and consumers!

[Miulang]

"Just under $5.00 per gallon"? Craig, you're being optimistic. I wouldn't be surprised if we had California style prices and went over $6.00. :(
Last week, there was a picture in the national press that showed a gas station in GA selling regular for $5.96/gallon...when they had it. Some stations are running out of the 2 cheaper grades of gas and are forcing people to buy the premium because that's all they have left.

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

If it's any consolation to you, Craig, I think Hawai'i's high prices will start to moderate after next week. Our gas prices have held pretty steady now for the week since the hurricane (most stations are selling regular for about $2.83, although I've seen some stations ripping people off for $3.04/gallon), and I think they'll drop some more as more refinerines come back online. The demand for gas historically also decreases after Labor Day and in the past, that's when the prices have started coming down, too.

On the one hand, the high prices suck wet moose, but on the other hand, at least you can kinda play the game of finding the cheapest gas and filling up the week before the next set of prices is announced (every Wednesday). That way, if the wholesale price for the next week is higher, you can still fill up using the lower prices for this week. Up here, we have no warning whatsoever when the prices are going to go up; only when a natural disaster hits do we know to plan for higher prices, and then usually "only" in the 6-10 cent/gallon range. I have no idea what magical formula the distributors up here use to rig prices. I don't think they use a "basket" like Hawai'i does. We get most of our gas from the West Coast refineries.

Miulang

Man I'd rather suck a wet moose than pay the kind of prices we're being held hostage to. And Miulang, I don't think prices will drop only stabilize at those outrageous prices.

Who was it on last night's KHON TV news that said that he's glad to see the gas caps keeping the price of gasoline down in the wake of Katrina? He was one of those legislators (democrat) that supported the gas cap law.

If that's the case then why are our gasoline prices going up so dramatically after Katrina if it had no direct impact? We get our crude from Alaska and the far east. AND we refine it locally!

[mel]

Click here for a list of all the legislators who voted to support the GAS CAPS. (http://tinyurl.com/8bw5e)

The legislator who was featured on last night's Channel 2 news in support of Gas Caps was State Rep. Marcus Oshiro.

[Miulang]

Man I'd rather suck a wet moose than pay the kind of prices we're being held hostage to. And Miulang, I don't think prices will drop only stabilize at those outrageous prices.

Who was it on last night's KHON TV news that said that he's glad to see the gas caps keeping the price of gasoline down in the wake of Katrina? He was one of those legislators (democrat) that supported the gas cap law.

If that's the case then why are our gasoline prices going up so dramatically after Katrina if it had no direct impact? We get our crude from Alaska and the far east. AND we refine it locally!

I think the gas cap is stupid too (and I'm supposed to be a tree-hugging liberal). I don't think your prices would have risen as steeply as they have now that they're tied to a mainland basket. Whatever method the distributors were using to rig the prices pre-gas cap, at least your prices, although higher than almost anywhere on the Mainland, were fairly constant, with a deviation of a penny or two. Now your prices are going to fluctuate like the bobber on a line that's being teased by a fish. And I think Gov. Lingle is going to "punish" you guys for what the Democratically-controlled legislature did.

Miulang

[Miulang]

Resourceful Honolulu commuters are starting to adopt carpools (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050909/NEWS01/509090357) and public transportation as the price of gas heads towards the stratosphere. They're not waiting for light rail; they're using what's already available.

Miulang

[Miulang]

According to Lee Cataluna (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050909/COLUMNISTS02/509090365/1120/NEWS), the gas cap is all about power and politics, and definitely not about saving the taxpayers money.

Miulang

[mel]

According to Lee Cataluna (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050909/COLUMNISTS02/509090365/1120/NEWS), the gas cap is all about power and politics, and definitely not about saving the taxpayers money.

Just like the rail transit tax.

Read this:

Time To Call Off Failed Gas Gap Experiment (http://tinyurl.com/9ppud)

http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[Miulang]

Uh oh. One negative consequence of the higher gas prices is the increase in gasoline theft (http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/news/4951857/detail.html). It's happening on Maui so my guess is it's also going to start happening on Oahu, too. If there's a way you can garage your car at night, that would probably be the only way to keep people from stealing your gas...on Maui, it sounds like they're cutting gas lines and not just popping gas caps and siphoning out the gas, so it sounds like locking gas caps only make the damage to your car worse rather than prevent theft.

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

Wow that is amazing. I remember back in the 70's when stealing gas first came about. Lots of stupid people died because they started the siphoning with their mouths and literally suck gasoline into their lungs. Oh well I guess Darwin's theory of Survival of the Fittest came true then...the smart ones survive.

At least the smart ones that did survive know better and are cutting the lines instead of sucking it in like their failed ancestors. :D

The ones that have to be careful are those who those who do yard service. They leave their five gallon gas cans in the back of their pick up while they weed-whack the backyard of a customer's home. Man that's about what $10-$15 dollars in those cans and could supply a thief about a quarter tank of gas for themselves? Hit four yard services and you're good to go for the week!

Nowdays I'm topping off my tanks in both of my cars everyday since the prices seem to be going up daily, it's better not to wait and fill up right away and take advantage of the daily pricing since I don't think the prices will drop anytime soon.

It's better to keep your tanks topped off rather than to run it to a quarter tank and have to pay more for a "higher than yesterday" price of gas and weep at the pump.

Hilo: $3.46 per gallon of Super at Cheveron on Kilauea Ave. as of today (9/9/05).

[MadAzza]

I think the gas cap is stupid too (and I'm supposed to be a tree-hugging liberal). I don't think your prices would have risen as steeply as they have now that they're tied to a mainland basket.

Miulang

The price cap only sets the MAXIMUM price of wholesale gas. It doesn't set a minimum. No person or law is holding a gun to the gas companies' heads and forcing them to gouge consumers. They're doing that all on their own.

[craigwatanabe]

yeah when you put it that way it only seems the Democrats and the refineries were working in collusion to raise prices for someone's gain.

HEY WAIT A MINUTE THAT'S A REPUBLICAN KIND OF TACTIC!!! And we got two Democratic congressmen who voted for arctic drilling and a Democratic Honolulu mayor that's pulling trees out of the ground!!!!

What the heck is going on here! :eek:

[MadAzza]

And up is down! And dark is light!

(rushing to put on tinfoil hat)

[Miulang]

Here's Mufi's conundrum: because the price of fuel is going up for municipal vehicles, he feels TheBus fares (http://starbulletin.com/2005/09/10/news/index1.html) either have to be raised or some service has to be cut to help balance the budget. If more people are going to start riding TheBus because they're suffering from the high price of gas too, shouldn't he think about increasing services and routes as the demand warrants instead of increasing fares and cutting service?

If he increases fares or cuts service, fewer people would want to ride TheBus. Helen and others have noted here that oftentimes the buses aren't very crowded, so if you keep fares the same as today, you would attract more riders, which would mean more revenue. It'll take a little while for commuters to get used to getting on public transportation to get to work. I think if the fares got raised, there would be even fewer riders on TheBus than currently.

Miulang

[Konaguy]

-This is what I sent to the legislature and Governor Lingle
[I substituted repeal for suspend the latter e-mail]



I strongly urge you to repeal the ill conceived gas cap.
It is unconscionable that the wholesale gas prices swing
27 cents or 44 cents in a week. Before the gas cap there
was never these wild swings in prices.
Making this worse is the fact that the gas cap has negatively
changed peoples habits. I'm seeing a lot of people using non-conforming
gas containers to store fuel when I get gas. Do you want to
take responsibility if someone gets hurt or has their house burn
down because of they inappropriately stored gasoline.
If the government really wants to change how the oil companies
operate they should force the oil companies to open their books and
see how much they are charging their wholesalers for gasoline.
All in all, I will never vote Democrat in this state ever again. The
Democrats shoved this Communist inspired price controls on to us.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how successful the Communist system
was.


Best Regards,

[Moto]

I am still against the gas cap law. I believe it was not a smart idea. However, just to be fair, the high prices we're expreiencing were experienced across the nation too. In fact we weren't in the top 20 highest prices when it started to rise. However, without the new gas cap law, I believe we had a 6 month cushion before we would feel the effects. We lost that cushion. The effect on the gas prices due to Katrina, just magnified how bad this idea really is. Now the nation's gas prices are subsiding, but here in Hawaii, thanks to the gas cap law, we're still seeing a potential rise in prices. If anything, if you're sick and tired of sittiing in long gas lines on Sunday (because the possibility of gas prices going up on Monday morning due to the new gas cap law) this is directly attributed to the Gas cap law. Before, we would not know when the prices would increase, so there would not be a mad rush to the pumps to beat the rising prices. Unfortunately, I was running on fumes yesterday and needed to sit in that long line at Costco to get my cheap ($3.099/gal) gas. Don't the Legislators understand that this is a dumb idea? Or are they just trying to save face by sticking to their guns?? If they're smart, they would just admit what everyone already seems to know, that it was a dumb idea, repeal the law and move on.

[craigwatanabe]

Today at the Bay Shell Service station in downtown Hilo their premium unleaded was $3.90 a gallon. Right across the street at the Cheveron station there was a double tanker transporter delivering gas while several lines of cars waited to pump premium at $3.50 a gallon. There were absolutely no cars at the Shell across the street.

Prices are different depending on what street you're on in Hilo. For premium it's been anywhere from $3.48 all the way to $3.90 at the same time this afternoon (around 4pm on 9/12/05)

So to our beloved legislators who voted for this cap...I DON'T THINK THIS LAW OF YOURS IS WORKING!!!! HELLO IS ANYONE HOME IN THE BIG SQUARE BUILDING ON PUNCHBOWL STREET? MS LINGLE THIS CAP IS PUTTING A STRAIN ON MY BUDGET, NOW I MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BUY MY 51-INCH PLASMA TV SET CUZ DA CAR NO CAN GET TO CIRCUIT CITY WITH NO GAS.

[alohabear]

Today at the Bay Shell Service station in downtown Hilo their premium unleaded was $3.90 a gallon. Right across the street at the Cheveron station there was a double tanker transporter delivering gas while several lines of cars waited to pump premium at $3.50 a gallon. There were absolutely no cars at the Shell across the street.

Prices are different depending on what street you're on in Hilo. For premium it's been anywhere from $3.48 all the way to $3.90 at the same time this afternoon (around 4pm on 9/12/05)

So to our beloved legislators who voted for this cap...I DON'T THINK THIS LAW OF YOURS IS WORKING!!!! HELLO IS ANYONE HOME IN THE BIG SQUARE BUILDING ON PUNCHBOWL STREET? MS LINGLE THIS CAP IS PUTTING A STRAIN ON MY BUDGET, NOW I MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BUY MY 51-INCH PLASMA TV SET CUZ DA CAR NO CAN GET TO CIRCUIT CITY WITH NO GAS.
Remember these beloved legislators who voted for this cap at election time and DON'T RE-ELECT THESE SCUMBAGS! No be one dummy and re-elect them MAKE YOUR VOTE COUNT next election. :mad: BTW.... If you drive a large truck or SUV and complain about gas prices... I think it's a good time to trade in for something that will get you more for the gallon. What do you need a SUV in a "city" like Honolulu anyway? 4-wheeling on the freeway? ;)

[mel]

Remember these beloved legislators who voted for this cap at election time and DON'T RE-ELECT THESE SCUMBAGS! No be one dummy and re-elect them MAKE YOUR VOTE COUNT next election. :mad: BTW.... If you drive a large truck or SUV and complain about gas prices... I think it's a good time to trade in for something that will get you more for the gallon. What do you need a SUV in a "city" like Honolulu anyway? 4-wheeling on the freeway? ;)

Let me remind you folks that a complete list of legislators who voted for the gas cap law is posted at the HawaiiReporter website:


Hawaii's Most Unwanted (http://tinyurl.com/8bw5e)

The list is truly bi-partisan though some of those who voted for this law are already out of office. If anything the voters of Mililani need to get rid of Senator Ron Menor chief architect and supporter of this law. I can't stand watching him preach about the merits of the gas cap as he did nearly everyday on some local newscast last week.

The Channel 2 News report last night toyed with the suggestion that some if not all of Hawaii's gas taxes should be repealed, if not permanently at least temporarily. The Governor in Georgia did this.

Of course the better solution would be a suspension and ultimate repeal of the gas cap law.

http://macpro.freeshell.org/notax/notax-s.gif

[mel]

Senator Menor is trying to place blame now on the PUC:

http://starbulletin.com/2005/09/13/news/story2.html

Duh, none of this would have happened if he did not move to pass the original bill.

[Linkmeister]

I use so little gas (one or maybe two fill-ups a month) that this isn't really hammering me (yet). I think it's gotta play out over time; Katrina is a oncer which is throwing all the moving averages out of whack.

I went down to get a replacement driver's side mirror put onto my car at Chevron Pearl Ridge (across from the watercress farm) this morning (their car wash broke it off a couple of weeks ago, and they said they'd get me a new one). They're charging $3.65 for regular unleaded today. I even took a picture of the sign and put it up at my place.

[1stwahine]

I had my gas filled at the beginning of the month. Cezanne checked everything for me. This Gas Cap Law -- to confusing, yet, I was not dumb to figure that I better go filler up.

On the news tonight (Channel 2), they said prices are way up. Duh? Prices should go down by next week? Double Duh?? So for those who can wait it out...great. For those who can't...triple DUH??? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

For the politicians who passed this idiotic LAW! Uhhh, Neva mind. I no like get BANNED!

Auntie Lynn

[mel]

Along King Street today, saw $3.47 at Chevron and $3.60 at Cosmo. Those stations are like about a block and a half away from each other.

[craigwatanabe]

What do you need a SUV in a "city" like Honolulu anyway? 4-wheeling on the freeway? ;)


With the number of mega potholes on Kapiolani BLVD I think you'd really need an SUV. I think some of the off road trails in Makaha on a rainy day is easier than some of our city streets. :D

Okay all the fun aside, I can't understand the logic so someone please enlighten me:

1) Katrina hit and knocked out the refineries and distribution system for crude and gasoline.

2) Wholesale prices of gasoline jumped coincidently the same time Katrina hit

3) Gas prices went ballistic because of availability including Hawaii and the West coast (who get theres from Asia and Alaska)

4) Now we're told gas prices will mellow out next week because mainland prices have dropped or will drop soon


Gas prices went up due to several refineries and ports being shut down from Katrina. I mean major shutdown!

Gas prices are set to drop because of what then? Did those refineries and Gulf Ports after only 13 days get back to full production? Well I guess Katrina didn't do that much catastrophic damage to those ports or refineries as the news had reported right?

The gas prices went up because availability was hampered by Katrina's effects on the oil refineries ability to refine and distribute gas.

Gas prices are going down (next week) because of the opposite? The whole arguement revolves around availability. Is gas available again to the point before Katrina? I think not.

If a refinery can get back to full steam within two weeks of being totally disabled from the hurricane, then it wasn't damaged to the point where availability was an issue to begin with. And hence prices shouldn't have skyrocketted as a result.

There's a lot of bullshit going on here and I hope a full investigation goes on to find out what exactly caused the gas prices to spike so unusually as it did both here in Hawaii and on the mainland with or without Katrina sticking her foot into it.

There's something rotten going on here and it ain't only in New Orleans!

[Moto]

Not sure how much of an effect it has (must have some), but President Bush has released some of our national oil reserve. That could be supplementing the lack of production in the Gulf Coast area. Just a thought, nothing hard to back up any effects real or imagined.

[Miulang]

Not sure how much of an effect it has (must have some), but President Bush has released some of our national oil reserve. That could be supplementing the lack of production in the Gulf Coast area. Just a thought, nothing hard to back up any effects real or imagined.

Venezuela and some OPEC countries also volunteered to send extra petroleum to tide us over until all our own assets were back online. The big bottleneck right now is not availability of crude but lack of refinery capacity.

Your gas prices should go down by about 45-50 cents next week, according to the wholesale cap announced yesterday. That should provide relief to people who were worried that the only way was up for gas prices. If they do come down, the Dems will crow about how well the caps are working. All I really think it's going to do for Hawai'i drivers is make you as sensitive to the price fluctuations we are up here. We're always hunting around for the cheapest gas. What's ironic is 2 gas stations, selling the same brand of gas at the same intersection can have prices that are anywhere from 2 cents to a nickle per gallon different from each other! That's when you start saying to yourself, "Hmmm....if the gas is from the same oil company, then the difference in price must be the profit the retailer wants to make."

Miulang

[alohabear]

This website (http://www.internetautoguide.com/gas-prices/87-int/hawaii/honolulu/index.html) shows the prices of gas on O'ahu. How current are these prices?

[Miulang]

Here's a story about the wholesale price cap (http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/money/4976019/detail.html) of gas in Hawai'i, beginning next Monday. Everyone's anticipating a 50 cent price drop over this week's prices, if the distributors and retailers play the game everyone expects them to play.

Another story (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050915/NEWS01/509150338/1001).

Miulang

[craigwatanabe]

You know Miulang you made an observation that the gas comes from the same place and you're right especially here in Hawaii.

There are only two refineries in Hawaii; Tesoro and Cheveron. Tesoro sells to practically everybody including Shell, Union 76, Aloha Petroleum and others. Cheveron covers the rest. But Shell charges almost 30-cents more than everybody else here in Hilo for the same base gas.

As far as availability, the source of gas is from the same refineries so availability is a moot arguement. Oil companies are quick to adjust pricing when it goes up regardless of pre-exisiting quantities of stored crude, but when the price of a barrel of crude drops, I've never seen the oil companies adjust likewise. We may see a drop in wholesale prices however I wouldn't be surprised if the price of retail gasoline stays the same or just drops fractionally.

The arguement will be that the gas in the holding tanks of service stations represent gas bought at the higher wholesale price the previous week and that higher prices have hurt their bottom line so they'll have to keep the prices high to compensate for loss sales due to higher prices. I'm sure the gas stations will come up with some rediculous reasons why they can't lower the prices.

In the past have you ever seen gas prices drop? Except in gas wars I've never seen that happen in all my driving years.

[Palolo Joe]

All I can say is I sure hope your State Legislature sticks to its guns. The general consensus of most people up here is that that gas cap ain't gonna work.
Now prices are expected to drop by 50 cents. Does that mean the gas cap is "working" for us?

[Moto]

Since the Oil Embargo in the early 70's till the time when the gas cap law was enacted, do any of you recall sitting in long lines to buy gas? Prior to the Gas cap law, was there any service stations being told that the jobbers can no longer deliver fuel to them because they will be doing so at a loss? It appears that the gas cap law only puts a different time lag on our prices.

[craigwatanabe]

Long lines? Man back then if you went to blockbusters on Waialae and Hunakai where the old Union 76 station was, the line started on Waialae, backed up around the corner where Times supermarket is wrapped around the block and doubled around the corner on Hunakai back onto Waialae!

The Shell Station (Bill Green's) had lines from Waialae Avenue town bound backing up around Kilauea avenue and around Hunakai by Wilson Elementary School.

Those were really bad times with the gas thing.

[Menehune Man]

Here's a New Age Gas Gauge.

[Linkmeister]

I was on leave from the Navy in January 1974, and I swear I spent three full days out of my thirty allotted ones waiting in line on Kamehameha Hwy outside the Makalapa Gate to PH, trying to get on base to reach the Navy gas station.

[1stwahine]

I remember those lines very well! It was bad but then I had "youth" and friends with me in the car! :p Our own Tail Gate Party! :eek:

Auntie Lynn

[Miulang]

After the slight reprieve in high gas prices of last week, Hawai'i will probably see the wholesale price of gas go way up again next Wednesday due to Hurricane Rita. According to news reports, most of the largest oil refineries in the Gulf of Mexico are located off the Texas part of the Gulf, and a couple of the major refineries have already shut down production in preparation for the hurricane. This part of the Gulf produces about 1/4 of all the gas used in the US.

Miulang

[mel]

The following cartoon just about tells it all for Hawaii's overall political and fiscal policy under the current domination of the majority party at the Legislature:

http://pritchettcartoons.com/gas-cap.htm


:(

[1stwahine]

I swear they should put horns on the guy's head...look like the DEVIL himself!

Auntie Lynn

[mel]

He is the communist devil that some of our socialistic and wanna-be communists in the legislature probably worship.... Ron Menor??????

[1stwahine]

Yeah, I remember him. The one who went on every channel bragging about how it was going to work then after was blaming it on something else...total failure. Voters shold Vote him out! Remains to be seen like always. Hmmmmmm.

Auntie Lynn

[LikaNui]

I swear they should put horns on the guy's head...look like the DEVIL himself! Hey! I resemble that description!
Wait. Sorry. Wrong thread.
:p

[Palolo Joe]

After the slight reprieve in high gas prices of last week, Hawai'i will probably see the wholesale price of gas go way up again next Wednesday due to Hurricane Rita.
Here we go again...

You said the same thing when Katrina was going to hit... do you really think anyone is going to be surprised when prices go up?

Another one of those N.S.S. moments.

[Miulang]

Here we go again...

You said the same thing when Katrina was going to hit... do you really think anyone is going to be surprised when prices go up?

Another one of those N.S.S. moments.
And you, my friend, are just being you. :p

Miulang

[Konaguy]

http://starbulletin.com/2005/10/01/editorial/letters.html

Dems use residents as gas-cap guinea pigs
This poorly thought-out gas cap needs to be repealed. It has radically changed the pricing structure here for the worse. I have lived here my entire life and never seen prices jump 25 or 44 cents in a week. Hence people's buying habits have changed. I find it really annoying that I have to fight the lines to get gas now, thanks to this gas cap.

The people who suffer are the citizens of this state who are being used as guinea pigs for the Democrats to stick it to the big bad oil companies. Not Democratic legislators, who ignored all the warning signs that this would be a disaster waiting to happen. I for one will never vote Democrat in this state ever again because the Democrats shoved this communist-inspired price control on us. It appears the People's Republic of Hawaii is alive and well.

Aaron Stene
Kailua-Kona