SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

[newroots]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

nope ... i dont mind at all .. things are unfair in saipan , i havent been there since a long time ago.


but if what u say is true.... than i dont look at it with disgust , i look at it differently. sure , things are unfair.. people with the connections and the family ties are the ones who get the job in the government.... i dont have a problem with that. familia is supposed take of each other. who better 2 give a job to.


somebody qualified for the job LOL , u might think... we'll make that ''unqualified'' person get qualified.


the way i see it is... those people have been through alot , more than 500 years of colonization and genocide , from more than 3 countries...

they can now make their own rules in the cnmi... its their house. if you dont like it , u always have the option 2 check somewhere else.

[Ajiaban]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

That is a really flimsy basis to justify nepotism and discrimination.

Yes, Chamoru had difficulties, historically, but keep in mind more Americans many times over died in the Battle of Saipan than Chamoru. And certainly Jews have had a rougher time than any people group on earth. And first generation Filipino-Americans have certainly had life harder than most any Chomoru we may meet today.

But I think it is best to not even play the "who has had the roughest time historically" game. Nobody really wins.

Nepotism has apparent benefits in the short term...for those who happen to have the right last name. But for all the others, it destroys lives, plain and simple.

Nepotism is also a sure way to keep a society operating at sub-par level. Optimal functioning only occurs through competition on a level playing field. Nepotism destroys that.

Nepotism creates a culture of entitlement that in the long run damages everything it touches, including the ones it is supposed to "benefit".

Yet the general attitude of CNMI Chomoru is as you are saying: they view it as their "right" to use federal money to practice nepotism. That in turn has bred a parallel-and-underneath, and yes, illegal system of doing things wherein corruption is practiced.

For example, for any job on Saipan for which federal money is used (i.e., ALL public sector jobs in the CNMI) but for which nepotism plays a role in who is hired, a crime has been committed. No, the CNMI cannot make its own rules in that regard. If they take U.S. federal money, they have to follow U.S. federal rules in non-discrimination, and that completely excludes nepotism. "if you dont like it , u always have the option 2 check somewhere else."

Neopitism is actually false love toward a family member. It is not real "taking care" of family. Real taking care of them is to provide them a level education and a level playing field from where they must compete for jobs on a level playing field with others. That means they have to ACTUALLY work very hard and ACTUALLY be excellent at what they do. Favoritism based upon race or family name terribly damages those supposedly benefited by it because it games the system in their favor and thereby removes the incentive needed for Chomoru from favored families to develop to their full potential. For Chomoru or other Americans from non-favored families, it has a similar effect, because they realize the system is stacked against them solely because of their birth name. That is oppression, plain and simple. Phil Kaplan called it "neo-colonialism, native style".

Martin Luther King, Jr., said, "Discrimination anywhere is discrimination everywhere." Jesus said, "That which you would have others do to you, do also to them". Both statements categorically condemn nepotism.

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[newroots]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

u have an interesting point there..... but i still dont agree with you.


okay , so maybe chamorru didnt have it so hard ... they were just raped , murdered , and nearly became extinct! ... its not about what last name u have ... its about the fact that we have to take care of each other.. make sure we survive , takin care of the kin. chamorru has a history of taking care of each other ... remember ''chenchule''


i think we should use federal funds the way we want.. they do have bases on chamorru land dont they? ...... those funds are like compensation for use of those land. i dont look at it favoring my people as discrimination... if i dont take care of my people. who will? will you?

[Ajiaban]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

The Guamanian and CNMI governments receive specific compensation for use of local lands and waters for military purposes. Beyond any specifically allocated funds, one of the other benefits is that the local governments do not need to concern themselves with funding their own militaries. The cost to either Guam or the CNMI to maintain their own fully equipped militaries would sink the local economies in short order, and it would be a loosing battle anyway. For example, if China 15 years from now decided they wanted to take Guam and the CNMI, could either do anything to resist? Of course not. Like it or not, small islands have no choice but to ally with a larger power to secure their own defense. Otherwise, they would become very quick targets for opportunistic powers. To therefore say that since the U.S. uses local lands for military purposes, local people can appropriate federal program grant money any way they want is to go beyond agreements. It is simply a rationalization for thievery, done in the name of ajuda, Inafa’maolek and Chenchule.

Further, to say that it is acceptable for Chomoru to discriminate against, say, a 25 year-old Filipino-American for actions perpetrated against Chomoru ancestors by the Spanish or Japanese is insanely immoral. The Filipino-American was not even born when those actions occurred; nor is he even Spanish or Japanese, although that would be an irrelevant consideration. It is equivalent to a Chamoru being punished for crimes committed by someone's Indonesian ancestor who you do not even know nor that you even even had nothing to do with. In fact, you were not even born when the crimes were committed. But you are now to be punished for them.

One way to evaluate the morality of an action, set of actions, or a belief or beliefs is to generalize the same to all others, i.e., if everyone did your same behaviors, would a moral outcome result and the world be a better place; or "act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law." For example, let us say that a people group decides in their version of interdependent care for one another that showing favoritism based upon race membership is good. Now let us then take that same principle and generalize it to all. So, for example, now based upon your own rule, whites also decide in their version of interdependent care for one another that showing favoritism based upon race membership is good; so, if any non-white resides in, say, Alabama, he or she should fully expect that the whites there will discriminate against him or her because whites take care of their own, and that this is just and moral. Of course, what I am describing actually happened in the U.S. South but has been illegal since the 1964 Civil Rights Act. The behavior is very ugly racism, discrimination based upon race, and immoral.

(For more info on the principle above, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantian_imperative )

The way to take care of one's own is as I said prior,

to provide them a level education and a level playing field from where they must compete for jobs on a level playing field with others. That means they have to ACTUALLY work very hard and ACTUALLY be excellent at what they do. Favoritism based upon race or family name terribly damages those supposedly benefited by it because it games the system in their favor and thereby removes the incentive needed for Chomoru from favored families to develop to their full potential. For Chomoru or other Americans from non-favored families, it has a similar effect, because they realize the system is stacked against them solely because of their birth name. That is oppression, plain and simple.

Chomoru have too much kept their ancient caste system. It feels (but is not actually) good, unless you happen to be a modern-day manachang. I find it one of the saddest things about Chomoru societies that a people once historically discriminated against by colonial dominators in the name of "caring for their own" have now turned to too closely mimic certain of those very behaviors also in the name of caring for one's own. But caring for one's own can cross a line where it terribly damages recipients and all those affected thereby. Help simply ceases to be help indeed, and it crosses the line into immorality, when it harms recipients, innocent parties, or both.

__________________________________________________ _____

[Miulang]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

Chomoru have too much kept their ancient caste system. It feels (but is not actually) good, unless you happen to be a modern-day manachang. I find it one of the saddest things about Chomoru societies that a people once historically discriminated against by colonial dominators in the name of "caring for their own" have now turned to too closely mimic certain of those very behaviors also in the name of caring for one's own. But caring for one's own can cross a line where it terribly damages recipients and all those affected thereby. Help simply ceases to be help indeed, and it crosses the line into immorality, when it harms recipients, innocent parties, or both.

I agree with this statement, to an extent. The Chomoru are the indigenous people, are they not? If they express a desire to become more self-sufficient within a society that has always deemed them inferior in some way, is that not a good thng?

I think the issue of self-determination for indigenous people is very important. And if they, in their efforts to care for their own, come off looking, sounding, and doing the same things that were done to them to the next group of minorities, are they really totally to blame? Where did they learn these things? Was it from their elders? Probably not. More than likely the lessons they learned came from the white culture. If you are brought up in that culture (even if you are not of that culture), would you not also act in the same way? If your role model tells you that it's OK to discriminate against others who are different from you, wouldn't it be hard not to think that that was OK? About the only way that might not happen is if there is an educational process, hopefully taught by people who know of the old ways, so that they can become the new role models for their new society.

The reason why the Chomoru ended up with their political/economic status is the same reason why the Native Hawaiians are now having to fight for their rights: when the explorers landed on their island, the local people knew nothing about foreigners. Being naive, they therefore treated these new arrivals with respect and humility. The Caucasian culture is very opportunistic and they exploited the locals' naivete. They taught them the white man's religion and customs. They forbade the natives from practicing their own culture.

Only now, as the Native Americans say, the White Buffalo Calf Woman has returned, and it is a time when the governments that oppress people will tumble and the world is restored back into balance with the Earth. I see the prophesy of her return in the political upheaval that is occurring all over the world.

Now, another sacred white buffalo, named Miracle's Second Chance by Valerie Heider, has been born on the same farm in Wisconsin during a lightning storm on August 25, 2006.

David Swallow, Teton Oglala Lakota traditional spiritual leader from the Pine Ridge Reservation, spoke today on the significance and message he sees in this calf's birth.

He clearly believes that the name for this calf was actually part of the message. He said, "The name is right, it is no accident, the birth of Miracle's Second Chance is yes, a second chance for all humanity." And since, to his people, lightning represents the destruction of evil, Swallow feels the message is the strongest yet.

Swallow went on to explain that, "It is not the normal average person or even the normal government people who bring such danger and destruction to the world. It is those who walk in greed and envy who feed the prophesied many-headed serpent who is foretold to consume its supporters."

Swallow explained that the traditional stories of his people tell that the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Woman came at a time of great need and great strife and war to bring the people back to peace, to living in a good way. She initially appeared to two men. In this first encounter, one of the men was honored, the one who showed respect and right spiritual action. The other was consumed and turned to dust because of his evil intentions.

Swallow believes so it will happen in our world again today, "The birth of this calf symbolizes this, that evil will be destroyed," he said.

His words spoke that, "It is time that the white nations and all mainstream cultures return to living in a good way, in peace and harmony with each other and with Grandmother Earth. Only by doing so, will life continue in our world."

But Swallow was clear that there was also a message for the indigenous nations as well. He pointed out that the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Woman had brought the sacred c'anunpa, the sacred pipe, to his people that they might use it to pray in a good way so that their sincere prayers might be heard by the Divine.

Swallow issued a call to all those who carry a c'anunpa. He said, "The Sacred Pipe carriers, whether they are Native American or not, need to get their sacred c'anunpas out and use them every day to pray for peace and harmony to return to our world in a good way. Pray that the "money" people will wake up and stop destroying Grandmother Earth for profit and that her health will return. You can make a difference, a very real difference. The c'anunpas need to be used for this purpose by all who carry them. They need to do this every day and to walk with these prayers in their hearts"

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

There's a fine line between righting the wrongs of the past and promoting corruption & nepotism.

If the natives are quick to point out what the Caucasians did wrong, why do they follow their footsteps? There's a lot of talk about the spiritual way and the old way yet when the $$$ are thrust in the face, all that talk goes out the window.

[Miulang]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

There's a fine line between righting the wrongs of the past and promoting corruption & nepotism.

If the natives are quick to point out what the Caucasians did wrong, why do they follow their footsteps? There's a lot of talk about the spiritual way and the old way yet when the $$$ are thrust in the face, all that talk goes out the window.

I believe it's called human nature ("keeping up with the Joneses"). And which natives are the opportunists? Mostly the younger ones, who grew up being deprived materially and starved of their own culture.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

I believe it's called human nature ("keeping up with the Joneses"). And which natives are the opportunists? Mostly the younger ones, who grew up being deprived materially and starved of their own culture.

Miulang

How are the younger ones deprived of their own culture these days? The US made a lot of mistakes in the past, but it's been a long time since they ever prohibited any native tribes from practicing their culture. I find that argument more and more as an excuse. And it is because it's human nature to be greedy, that nepotism and corruption cannot be justified by the fact that natives were repressed in the past.

[Miulang]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

How are the younger ones deprived of their own culture these days? The US made a lot of mistakes in the past, but it's been a long time since they ever prohibited any native tribes from practicing their culture. I find that argument more and more as an excuse. And it is because it's human nature to be greedy, that nepotism and corruption cannot be justified by the fact that natives were repressed in the past.

Joshua, it's called "acculturation". Here's an analogy: with the pervasiveness of television and other media these days, the younger people are wanting what people in the outside world have (the "keeping up with the Joneses" part). But what's happening is they are being taught subliminally to crave the taste of Coca Cola, while forgetting or eschewing the taste of fresh water. Actually, you can see it rather clearly going on in Hawai'i, too. Before the advent of cable TV (and yes, I can remember those days), living on Maui meant no big box stores, everything being closed on Sundays and after 6 p.m. except on Friday evenings when the stores stayed open until 8 or 9 p.m. Now you have big box stores, everything open on Sundays and open every night until 8 or 9. With exposure to the "outside world", people's expectations rose. People are also more mobile than ever, so they bring with them their own set of expectations about how their environments have to be (as in, I wanna bring what I had with me to this new place).

Even though our country has not actively banned natives from practicing their culture for a long time, we do have subliminal ways of convincing minorities that our way is "better". Case in point, telling the natives that the only way we will deal with them is if they learn and speak our language. There has never been a time in the history of this country where we have stooped so low as to become fluent in the host country's language or culture unless we are forced to.

Miulang

[joshuatree]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

Acculturation exists but that does not deprive younger ones of their culture. It competes with it for sure. But this isn't a problem only native tribes experience. It's happening across the entire globe, one reason why the French resent us, the creeping in of American culture. But if a group is determined to retain and cultivate their own ways, it is very possible. Look at the Amish. They are thriving just fine in their own ways even though overwhelming modern day American culture surrounds them. All I am saying is, you can't justify nepotism and corruption with arguments of cultural repression.

[glossyp]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

If you equate language as an important element of retaining culture, the Chamorus are doing quite well. The language is dynamic, spoken widely and commonly heard. Sessions of the legislature are conducted in either English or Chamoru. On Guam, it is not unusual to see groups of young people rap, tell stories, sing and recite poetry in Chamoru.

There are very real problems with government corruption on Saipan, but it cannot be blamed on "Caucasian Culture" (whatever that means - that's like saying "Asian Culture" - be specific please) nor on traditonal Chamoru culture or the "clash" of cultures. It can be blamed on the very basic human failing of greed, which has been allowed to run amok. I believe that we are in a transitional state to a better way. The pre-WWII generation adhered to traditional values; the ones born after the war are most to blame for the problems so prevelant in recent history. The good news is that the generation coming into power now promises to be better having seen what happens when greed rules.

[newroots]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

i'm just trying not to burn in the melting pot... if neo neptoism and corruption is what it takes to prevent that ... then i dont mind .. by any means necessary. this guy ... Dr. wittenbach santos.. he used to be some high ranking guy in the pentagon. hes now an activist for indigenous rights here .... he said the u.s. government wanted a large population increase.. they WANTED an influx of people to come .. so it could be all mushy and ''maybe the chamorros wouldn't want 'independence' anymore''..... i think thats the reason why they didnt want to let the local government any control of immagration policies.. thats the reason why its so hard for the government.. (2 many people) ..... i dont think this place was made to hold so many people and buildings.. its an island trying to be turned into a city. we are not city people , we are not state people. were island people.. why is this place being turned in2 a louzy city?




self-determination isnt wrong.
its a right.
a right that has been wrongly denied to us for 500 years.

the chamorro must demand that institutions respond to his needs ..... he must be fre of regulations which confuse rather than guide his quest for dignity.

[joshuatree]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

if neo neptoism and corruption is what it takes to prevent that

How do you think that will prevent a melting pot or lack of independence? In neo-nepotism and corruption, those in power only look after what is their best interest. What makes you think a corrupt Chamorro won't sell out a fellow Chamorro if the price is right? If anything, you want a fair system that brings in people who share your concerns, even if it might mean a non-Chamorro.

[Miulang]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

if neo neptoism and corruption is what it takes to prevent that

How do you think that will prevent a melting pot or lack of independence? In neo-nepotism and corruption, those in power only look after what is their best interest. What makes you think a corrupt Chamorro won't sell out a fellow Chamorro if the price is right? If anything, you want a fair system that brings in people who share your concerns, even if it might mean a non-Chamorro.

I think this whole debate is like looking at a water glass that is 50% filled. Is it half empty, or half filled? If you ask a person like Newroots, who is Chamorro, what he thinks is best for his people, you might get a different answer than what you or I think would be best for his people; neither is right or wrong, it's all a matter of perspective.

Miulang

[Ajiaban]

Re: SAIPAN SUCKS -- (its a website) -- opinions?

If the perspective-dependent conception of morality is true, then anything goes. What is "right" is what is useful to the particular beholder. We are then left in a world where Nietzsche's "will to power" is the dominant maxim.

So for example, if in Spain's perspective it was "useful" to exploit Chamoru, then Spain had just as much right to have their perspective viewed as moral and just as the opposite view.

But a universalist conception of morality--that some things are wrong or right universally, irrespective of perspective--is true, then some things are universally wrong and right.

Now reconsider my earlier argument.

One way to evaluate the morality of an action, set of actions, or a belief or beliefs is to generalize the same to all others, i.e., if everyone did your same behaviors, would a moral outcome result and the world be a better place; or "act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it would become a universal law."

In this notion, nepotism is universally wrong.

Self-dignity never comes at the price of exploiting others; and a people once exploited can never hope to recover dignity by means similar to that which initially brought about its loss. It is dehumanizing to both the exploiters and the exploited. Knowing this is one reason why Phil Kaplan deftly described the Chamoru-constructed social system on Saipan as "neo-colonialism, native style".

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