Gab Gone Guam

[Royce]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

Hmmm... let's wait and see just how active the activists become with all the activity poised to start with the buildup. True, no mention of pre-drawdown days when the military presence was much bigger on Guam. I've heard some people wonder out loud about how things will be with so much military (so many GIs were the actual words) on the island.. problems in the bars, etc.. Younguns... it was like that when I was growing up!

[Miulang]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

I pray for the Chamoru that the US Department of Defense doesn't mess up Guam in the way they've messed up Hawai'i. At this point, the Chamoru are still in the majority, but unless they can take action politically, their opportunity for more say in their governance might be lost.

If I was Guahan, I would be more than a little upset at the Newsweek story that glossyp cited about how they HAVE to build up defense facilities on Guam because it's a "lily pad in the Pacific that the US can hop on without having to get approval from any of its allies". What about what the local residents of Guam want? Yes, more of them need jobs, but are defense contractor jobs the kind that will help the country in the long run?

Since our "enemies" in Asia will now know that Guam is being fortified again, wouldn't that little 30 mile long piece of sand become a primary target?

The Okinawans want to kick us out completely; the Philippines has already done so (I think Mt. Pinatubo might also have helped in that decision ), they are drawing down troops in South Korea and redeploying many to the Middle East.

Are there any other islands in the Pacific that we can annex so we can have FOBs without having to ask permission? ooooh, how about Bikini Atoll as an FOB? There are no inhabitants you'd have to displace.

Miulang

[glossyp]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

A bit of history would help understand the general outlook of the Chamoru people and the other residents. Guam was occupied by the Japanese in brutal fashion throughout WWII until the island was liberated by US forces as they pushed northward through the Pacific towards Japan. The Chamoru people on Guam are in general extremely patriotic and appreciative of being US citizens with the protections and freedoms inherent with citizenship. They are also realistic about their geo-political location - it's been a factor since the Spanish turned up in the 16th century and Guam became an important way-station in the Western Pacific.

A concern that Chamorus don't have a say over their government is somewhat laughable. All elected governors have been Chamoru. When the legislature is in session you are just as likely to hear the senators speaking in Chamoru as English. The vast majority of government employees are Chamoru - there is no lack of representation of Chamorus in government and throughout the society. The government has not been "hi-jacked" by any other ethnic or racial group though these groups are represented in the legislature.

The indigenous rights movement has waxed and waned almost in parallel to the economy; when the economy is booming indigenous rights flourish, when the economy is in bad, indigenous rights aren't as important. Locals have not forgotten the boom of the late 80s, early 90s which created the illusion that Guam didn't need the US military as a economic contributor. At that time the indigenous movement succeeded in pushing through a major draw down by the military with base closings, relocation of forces and other moves which reduced the military presence significantly. It was thought that tourism (almost solely dependant upon the Japanese market) would provide what was needed to sustain the economy. World events and natural disaster proved that this was not true. And, while there are some activists who would like to return to a traditional lifestyle, the fact remains that most people on Guam, Chamoru or otherwise, enjoy the comforts of modern life including electricity, running water, automobiles, plentiful food choices and gainful employment.

Many locals left the island during the economic collapse that happened. I would imagine most everyone here in Hawaii has friends, neighbors or co-workers from Guam who arrived here in the last 10 years. They came here in no small part because the economy of Guam tanked. (I hope that those who want to return home will be able to due to the improving economic situation.)

An influx of military personnel and families along with DOD contractors, etc. does have an amazing impact on the economy. Restaurants flourish, small businesses of all types do well, from communications companies to beauty shops. You name it, they benefit. So it's not just the jobs that come with the build up (though there are plenty of qualified locals who are hired for both professional and blue collar positions), it's the overall boost to commerce.

[Miulang]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

I just hope the US government is more benign and can control its employees (enlisted and otherwise) better than they did in Okinawa and the Philippines. I also hope they make a commitment to the Guamanians that they won't ruin their ecology and environment by polluting the land and water with all the equipment that will be based on that small island. I still think Bikini Atoll would be a better place...closer to Asia than Guam and there's nobody around to antagonize there.

The amazing thing about Bikini is before the US government stole it from the trusting Marshallese in the 1950's, it was a very verdant, lush area that supported many people. The US government has an obligation to pay reparations to the displaced Bikinians as well as mitigate and rehabilitate the island, and we have fallen so far behind in our payments to them that they sued the US government and we now owe them more than $700 million.

We could kill two birds with one stone by moving our troops to Bikini: since we have to rehabilitate the island anyway because of a treaty we signed, we could then construct new facilities and not have to worry about any local residents interferring with the development of a base.

I learned something last night about the former residents of Bikini Atoll that was kind of startling; while many of the Bikinians moved to other parts of the Marshall Islands, there are some 3,000 living in, of all places, ARKANSAS! Can you imagine the culture shock they must be enduring?

Miulang

[glossyp]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

We could kill two birds with one stone by moving our troops to Bikini: since we have to rehabilitate the island anyway because of a treaty we signed, we could then construct new facilities and not have to worry about any local residents interferring with the development of a base.

Every once in a while I am completely amazed at your suggestions. I can only presume you are being facetious as you can't simply be that uninformed. On the other hand, you don't seem to know where Bikini is actually located. You can find it at 11 N 166 E placing it much closer to Hawaii than Guam which is at 13 N 144 E. (Latitude/longitude rounded to nearest number.)

Bikini is an atoll which could not support the facilities required. There is zero infrastructure and to put the equivalent of what already exists on Guam would take years. As mentioned above, its physical location is literally thousands of miles from the area of concern (China, North Korea, SE Asia, etc.).

You seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around the idea that the majority of people on Guam, Chamorus and others, may actually welcome the military build up and attendant economic boom. There will always be problems with young and rowdy military, but violators are turned over to local authorities and handled through the court system which does not look kindly on bad behavior from military personnel or dependants.

[Miulang]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

Every once in a while I am completely amazed at your suggestions. I can only presume you are being facetious as you can't simply be that uninformed. On the other hand, you don't seem to know where Bikini is actually located. You can find it at 11 N 166 E placing it much closer to Hawaii than Guam which is at 13 N 144 E. (Longitude/latitude rounded to nearest number.)

Bikini is an atoll which could not support the facilities required. There is zero infrastructure and to put the equivalent of what already exists on Guam would take years. As mentioned above, its physical location is literally thousands of miles from the area of concern (China, North Korea, SE Asia, etc.).

You seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around the idea that the majority of people on Guam, Chamorus and others, may actually welcome the military build up and attendant economic boom. There will always be problems with young and rowdy military, but violators are turned over to local authorities and handled through the court system which does not look kindly on bad behavior from military personnel or dependants.

Of course I'm being facetious, glossyp. But I also object to the US's continued mindset of being able to take over another country just to suit our purposes, which are to protect an empire which is quickly fading into the sunset.

Miulang

[glossyp]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

Of course I'm being facetious, glossyp. But I also object to the US's continued mindset of being able to take over another country just to suit our purposes, which are to protect an empire which is quickly fading into the sunset.

Object as you may, the concern does not apply in this case. And, while you may be cheering for the day when the U.S., or 'empire' as you so derisively call it (all the while protected by its military, laws and systems), fades into the sunset, I am not and I'm guessing people who view our country as a symbol of hope and freedom don't either.

[Miulang]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

Object as you may, the concern does not apply in this case. And, while you may be cheering for the day when the U.S., or 'empire' as you so derisively call it (all the while protected by its military, laws and systems), fades into the sunset, I am not and I'm guessing people who view our country as a symbol of hope and freedom don't either.

I have nothing against our military as long as they are not housed in other countries and I am certainly for law and order in this country. But the US no longer has a "manifest destiny" to be the protector of everyone else when we can't even protect our own citizens in this country, on our own soil!

Webster's definition of "empire":

1 a (1) : a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority; especially : one having an emperor as chief of state (2) : the territory of such a political unit b : something resembling a political empire; especially : an extensive territory or enterprise under single domination or control

Although we were formed as a democracy, the current Administration is doing its damndest to crown an Emperor (or at least one person who believes he is above the laws of the land).

Miulang

[glossyp]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

I have nothing against our military as long as they are not housed in other countries and I am certainly for law and order in this country. But the US no longer has a "manifest destiny" to be the protector of everyone else when we can't even protect our own citizens in this country, on our own soil!

For better or worse, this is not your decision to make. Congress mandates and funds our bases around the world and we are leaving (and have left) places where leases expired, e.g. the Philippines and others such as Okinawa and South Korea. There are places in the world where having a forward presence is important to protect our interests and those of our allies.

Webster's definition of "empire":
Although we were formed as a democracy, the current Administration is doing its damndest to crown an Emperor (or at least one person who believes he is above the laws of the land).

And, the good news is that he cannot run for office again, and could not proclaim himself emperor, king or anything else no matter what. Our country is not defined by a single administration, and never has been, though it seems people have forgotten this in their hatred of Bush 43.

[newroots]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

i think its sad the u.s. military is deciding to put more people on the bases here......... i mean , 20,000 more people?! ... come on now.

as i said before , Guahan is an island. Not a city. I dont think it was meant to hold so much buildings or people. It will look even more messed up then it does now.


A good question is , Why do we want military that The Okinawans are desperately trying to get rid of??

There should have been a vote for the people of weather they wanted this move to take place.



I just think its sad how the u.s. government uses us for their own best interest , and dis-regards the dignity and the indigenous rights of a people...

its just wrong.

[Vanguard]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

Guam has snakes.
Hawaii doesnt have snakes.
I'll take Hawaii

Skinner: No problem. We simply unleash wave after wave of mongooses They’ll wipe out the snakes.
Lisa: But aren’t the mongooses even worse?
Skinner: Yes, but we’re prepared for that. We’ve lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on moongoose meat.
Lisa: But then we’re stuck with gorillas!
Skinner: No, that’s the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.

---

In addition, it seems that Guam has a very high frequency of crime; theft to be exact. I once read a Guam Mini Cooper enthusiast forum, and they had one mini forum devoted entirely to thefts; reporting missing items and theft suspects. I know Hawaii isn't perfect in that way, but Guam seems to have a very serious problem.

[newroots]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

yeah theft is a problem on guam. dumb people with no morals lol.

in school i must've had 3 watches stolen. stuff is sad. u cant trust nobody..........

[PoiBoy]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

i think its sad the u.s. military is deciding to put more people on the bases here......... i mean , 20,000 more people?! ... come on now.

as i said before , Guahan is an island. Not a city. I dont think it was meant to hold so much buildings or people. It will look even more messed up then it does now.


A good question is , Why do we want military that The Okinawans are desperately trying to get rid of??

There should have been a vote for the people of weather they wanted this move to take place.



I just think its sad how the u.s. government uses us for their own best interest , and dis-regards the dignity and the indigenous rights of a people...

its just wrong.

Are there many other Chamorros who oppose the occupation of the u.s in Guam? Are there any known leaders in the sovereignty movement?

How is the Chamorro cultural revitalization going?

[newroots]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

Are there many other Chamorros who oppose the occupation of the u.s in Guam? Are there any known leaders in the sovereignty movement?

How is the Chamorro cultural revitalization going?

Most of the Chamorro i know oppose the u.s. occupation. They agree that it is wrong , but they dont bother doing anything about it. I talk to alot of people my age who are eager to get active. When angel santos was alive.... it was awesome cuz there was alot of protests and things like that.
But ever since he died , everything simmered down. Since then , nobody has stepped up to the plate to be a leader like Angel was.





They're a few Known leaders in the chamorro sovriengty movement.. Like Senator Jesse Andersen Lujan. Dr. Judi Gutherds said indigenous rights was on her political agenda. But the most hopeful leader was Dr. Robert Underwood ... Who was a candidate for governor a year ago. He lost to a very controversial decision that had to be decided by the courts. Robert Underwood is a very good activist. If he was governor , things would be alot better.


But most leaders don't focus on political status.. They are busy with other issues cuz the economy here is pretty bad. in fact , they're talking about a Freeze in the government and also .... Closing down the school system cuz they don't have enough funds.



And as for the revitalization , its going good.. The younger generation is becoming more and more interested in the culture everyday. Years back , it was embarassing or ''stupid'' , to be interested in things like that.
But now , the kids are proud and very interested.

[joshuatree]

Re: Gab Gone Guam

But most leaders don't focus on political status.. They are busy with other issues cuz the economy here is pretty bad. in fact , they're talking about a Freeze in the government and also .... Closing down the school system cuz they don't have enough funds.

Do you think the Guam economy would be better or worse without the US military being based there?