The Iraq War - Chapter 2

[Miulang]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

You say this, but you are so quick to support a number like 100,000+, and so quick to criticize a USA source.

I have searched high and low for an American source, and the closest I could come is the Iraqibodycount website, which was an unbiased group of British and American scientists who published a report in 2003 that said based on "official" reporting by the CPA, there were between 5,000-7,000 noncombatant Iraqis killed between March and May, 2003 (the initial stages of the invasion). Extrapolating that over the 22 months we have occupied Iraq, and using the lower figure, my calculator tells me that at least 44,000 civilians have died since March, 2003. And if we average the number between this conservative figure of 44,000 with the high estimate of 100,000 quoted by the BBC, we still come out with about 72,000 people killed. This does not include people who have been injured in suicide bombing attacks (every day, they're getting picked off by suicide bombers...22 in Baghdad today, 12 on Monday in Mosul, 8 in Bacquba on Monday...or artillery attacks conducted by coalition forces (as in Fallujah and Ramadi). Nor does it account for the 1400+ American troops killed and 10,000+ who were wounded, a large number of them too disabled to return to the battlefield.

Miulang

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...976392,00.html

P.S. I think why Americans don't know about the high body count of civilians is because the American press chooses not to bring this up, outside of the independent and international media outlets, whose information you would say was not true.

[pzarquon]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

I'm an unapologetic leftist pinko hippie, and I think any attempt to compare the holocaust to almost any contemporary conflict (save genuine genocide, which we are seeing elsewhere) is ridiculous and unproductive hyperbole.

What the U.S. (and the Brits) did to Iraqi detainees is horrific, the fact that civilians die in a conflict is tragic, but there are no reasonable parallels - in raw numbers, in moral lapses, anywhere - to Auschwitz. I mean, seriously. Compared to Hitler, Saddam Hussein was a playground bully, but even so, he's got more in common with evil than the U.S. occupation.

Iraqi's - no doubt a few of them innocently rounded up - were shamefully humiliated by sadistic soldiers, and we all should be ashamed. Even though they were poorly trained, they should have known better, yes. (We'll leave evidence that authorizations for torture came from pretty high up for a separate debate.) But a soldier making naked pyramids for yuks is a pretty far cry from educated, intelligent scientists rationalizing wholesale murder of men, women and children.

Civilians are being killed and Western troops are trigger happy, but then again, this is a kind of warfare that is designed to confuse enemies - the line between civilian and combatant is as blurred in Iraq as it's ever been.

Invoking Nazis in any debate, rhetorically or seriously, is - so far, at least - pointless. It says more about the person than the topic.

I was against the war, and remain skeptical of reports of progress. But I've left Miulang alone in the Iraq and Bush threads lately because... well, no matter what side you're on, a lot of that stuff speaks for itself.

[Miulang]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

Precisely, Ryan. I am not intentionally trying to sway anyone's opinion. Whenever I can, I try to provide information from legitimate sources so people can think about things and make their own judgement (must be the journalist in me ). But I am so tired of having to rely on the foreign press to tell me what's going on in my own country because there is no such thing as objective reporting anymore.

It's really weird to think that the only stuff you're hearing is what the government wants you to hear. I just want to be able to hear both sides and decide for myself.

Miulang

[admin]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 2

Just a reminder, wholesale lifting of a 1,200-word article is a violation of copyright. Instead of cutting-and-pasting, please excerpt and link. And the expression of individual and original thought is always encouraged!

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 2

Mahalo foa doing dat, Bruddah Ryan!

Miulang

[mapen]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

I like to think I'm an open minded person, and when I get the chance, I will read those links you posted. But the fact that you had to calculate and extrapolate to arrive at an estimate of the dead already tells me that the number is no better (and may be less so) than those from journalistic sources who do not extrapolate and calculate death numbers.

It's really weird to think that the only stuff you're hearing is what the government wants you to hear. I just want to be able to hear both sides and decide for myself.

I think the media doesn't tell us enough about what we're doing in Iraq to try to rebuild schools, bring back electricity, telephone, rebuild roads, and the like. All the papers are interested in telling us, for the most part, are the latest official death numbers.

[mapen]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

But I've left Miulang alone in the Iraq and Bush threads lately because... well, no matter what side you're on, a lot of that stuff speaks for itself.

I'm new here so I didn't know what I was getting in to

[mapen]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

And may I also say that it is the "insurgents" that are responsible for the death and chaos occurring in Iraq today. If not for them, we would be better able to restore and rebuild hospitals, schools, electricity, roads, government, etc. and hasten our exit from the country.

[Miulang]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

And may I also say that it is the "insurgents" that are responsible for the death and chaos occurring in Iraq today. If not for them, we would be better able to restore and rebuild hospitals, schools, electricity, roads, government, etc. and hasten our exit from the country.

Please go see the thread Iraqi War 2. I have cited information that that "rebuilding" fund we allocated (something close to $20 billion) had almost $9 billion misappropriated up through June, 2004 because Paul Bremer's office didn't require accountability from the local leaders and literally just handed the money to the Iraqi interim government and didn't ask what they were going to use the money for (a lot of it went to the local authorities to pay for "ghost" security officers...in other words, we paid for people who didn't exist!). And don't even get me started on the Halliburton no-bid contracts!

Miulang

[pzarquon]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

And may I also say that it is the "insurgents" that are responsible for the death and chaos occurring in Iraq today. If not for them, we would be better able to restore and rebuild hospitals, schools, electricity, roads, government, etc. and hasten our exit from the country.

Er, yes, but then you get into the "why" of their overwhelming presence in Iraq. No doubt a good number of the people behind these attacks are Saddam loyalists and general extremist nationals who want occupation forces out at all costs... but even the Administration notes that there's a "bringing the war to the terrorists" factor in the after-the-fact rationalization of the invasion. (WMD? Who said anything about WMD?) That is, we went there to attract foreign fighters to their deaths in a faraway land, rather than having 'em crawling over to North America to wreak havoc at home.

I suppose the "silver lining" is that attacks by foreign insurgents are uniting everyday Iraqis against them - if not yet in favor of U.S. policies and practices there - but suffice it to say, the mess we're in now could have been exponentially less deadly for both civilians and our troops had we been able to lock Iraq down properly after rolling into Baghdad.

[admin]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 2

Merging the "Remembering Auschwitz" thread into this one, because it's still about Iraq.

[mapen]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

Please go see the thread Iraqi War 2. I have cited information that that "rebuilding" fund we allocated (something close to $20 billion) had almost $9 billion misappropriated up through June, 2004 because Paul Bremer's office didn't require accountability from the local leaders and literally just handed the money to the Iraqi interim government and didn't ask what they were going to use the money for (a lot of it went to the local authorities to pay for "ghost" security officers...in other words, we paid for people who didn't exist!). And don't even get me started on the Halliburton no-bid contracts!

Miulang

Yes, I agree, we have got to have more accountability on the rebuilding spending. But despite the massive corruption, we should endeavor to fix the problem and push on, not give up.

I won't touch the Haliburton issue - I too am suspicious of the whole Cheney-Haliburton connection.

[mapen]

Re: Remembering Auschwitz

Er, yes, but then you get into the "why" of their overwhelming presence in Iraq.

It appears to me that these insurgents don't care about the well-being and advancement of the people and country of Iraq and are more interested in fighting for the restoration of a new tyrannical non-representative government.

(WMD? Who said anything about WMD?) That is, we went there to attract foreign fighters to their deaths in a faraway land, rather than having 'em crawling over to North America to wreak havoc at home.

Ha! I haven't heard about that yet. That's just ridiculous for an official to say. I have to admit thinking to myself once that the terrorists might be so busy in Iraq that they are less likely to attack us domestically.

I suppose the "silver lining" is that attacks by foreign insurgents are uniting everyday Iraqis against them - if not yet in favor of U.S. policies and practices there - but suffice it to say, the mess we're in now could have been exponentially less deadly for both civilians and our troops had we been able to lock Iraq down properly after rolling into Baghdad.

Agreed.

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 2

And on a lighter note: we now have the modern US Army soldier as fashion statement!

The Army has redesigned its combat fatigues to better camoflauge troops who need to move between forest, desert and city (I'm not kidding...that's what they said!). It took 20 revisions before they rolled out the final design, which was introduced last June for the Army's 229th birthday. they did manage to eliminate the need to have 2 types of cammo traditionally issued in the past: one for the forest and the other for the desert. These new uniforms have Velcro fasteners, badges are fastened with Velcro, they're wrinkle proof and machine washable! The uniform redesign was part of a 3-year, $3.4 billion makeover of the Army.

You have to read the descriptions! This article has been the highlight of my news foraging for the evening.

Miulang

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...s_new_uniforms

[Miulang]

Re: The Iraq War - Chapter 2

Why does the news today that they are postponing announcing the final results of the Iraq election not surprise me?

Could it be because most of the Sunnis boycotted the elections?
Could it be because some Iraqis who tried to vote couldn't, because polling places ran out of ballots or because polls never opened?
Could it be because in the first results that were reported showed the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani's party (who kinda sorta likes Iran) is clearly in the lead, and the party of Iyad Allawi (the guy we hoped would win the election and want us around for longer) is trailing in 3rd place, with the Kurds in second place?
Could it be because there were rumors that if you were a registered voter and you didn't vote, you might lose your ration card and be unable to feed your family?

Maybe because the Coalition needs more time to print up some fake ballots to try to tip the election in favor of Allawi!

If voter fraud can occur in this "free, democratic" country of America, why wouldn't it occur in a place that had no foreign poll monitors to ensure the validity of the election (they were all in Jordan), that did not release the names of the parties and candidates until 3 days before the election, where the candidates were so terrified for their lives that the only way they could "campaign" and let people know to vote for them was by a cell phone call...?

If, after they count those 300 "disputed" ballot boxes and the results change to favor Allawi, be prepared for a major insurrection by the Iraqis. At least they're willing to die for their choices. We've showed them what democracy is all about, and we can't blame them for exercising their right as free citizens to protest.

Miulang

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6913272/