Arizona congresswoman shot

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

I'm disappointed. We are never going to advance as a society if we want to lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator (I'm not going to apologize since he didn't). No wonder we have so many gun loving citizens - justice comes out of the muzzle of a gun.

This attitude is disheartening, but we shall overcome.

Are we operating with a language barrier, maka? Or am I just being unclear.?

Frankie has (as I am told) had me on ignore since the 'great wars,' and so cannot hear an apology if I even made one.

Second, mother maka, WHO MADE YOU JUDGE AND JURY? Is Frankie telling you to harass me? Do you think you are morally superior to everyone else?

Third, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM????? Exactly, EXACTLY WTF am I supposed to apologise about? And to whom, since FM has me on ignore?

PLEASE, get a life.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

My random thoughts:

1) If I was a CCW holder and not in immediate danger:

a) I would leave the area. My first obligation is to my family; that means coming home alive and healthy.

b) It's amazing how much your hands shake during a stressful situation, despite feeling calm and focused. I would expect at least 80% of my shots to miss, even if the perp was standing still and not shooting at me. If you consider the flat terrain and potential crowd, there's a good chance you'd hurt someone with a direct hit, a ricochet, or flying glass/concrete. Even if you don't get charged/convicted with reckless endangerment or negligent homicide, you'd be wide open to a civil suit. There's a lawyer attached to every bullet that leaves your gun.

c) As Tutusue pointed out, there would be a lot of chaos; you could easily mistake the wrong person as the gunman. What if you sighted down a plain clothes officer about to engage the perp? What if another CCW holder shot at you and then you shot him/her?

d) Police officers run towards danger. Civilians should run away.

e) When the police show up, I don't want them aiming their guns at me. I don't want people pointing at me. I don't even want to be at the scene.

2) When seconds count, the police are minutes away.


3) If guns magically disappeared, I wouldn't expect the murder rate to change much. People would kill each other with knives instead. Of course, you usually don't hear of a "mass knifing", except for those poor kids in China.

Actually, I take that back. The murder rate would drop, just because guns do make it easier to kill. I don't expect the rate of violent crimes to drop; maybe they'd go up? I'm guessing suicide rates wouldn't change much.

Without a gun, I wonder if Loughner would have run over the governor and her supporters with a SUV. Or he could have knifed her easily enough, and maybe a few people too stunned to run.

[matapule]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Is Frankie telling you to harass me?

That made matapule chuckle. Frankie is perfectly capable of harrassing people on their own! And matapule says this with great admiration, no one better at harrassment than Frankie!

Do you think you are morally superior to everyone else?

Actually, no, since matapule is a person of very low morals. All matapule is trying to do is get you off of Frankie's ignore list. How can we solve problems together if we don't communicate, one with another, in the first place? Give Peace a chance.

Third, WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM?????

THEY RAN OUT OF DEPENDS AT TARGET! There! Now the whole world knows what matapule's problem is!

PLEASE, get a life.

You guessed it, out of stock at Target, too. They had a sale on them right after Christmas and they aren't sure they will be re-stocking them. There seems to be little demand for a Life without guns and automobiles!

[Kalalau]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

The crime statistics show that about 60 to 70 per cent of all murders are done with guns, year after year. Yet a speaker on some MSNBC show last night pointed out that Canada has about as high a gun ownership rate as the US with a far lower murder rate than here. Why would that be? Canada of course has national health care, maybe gunshot victims are getting treated in emergency rooms there while their insurance paperwork is still being processed here. Just kidding. But having national health care might be sort of symbolic of a society, kind of a liberal touchy feely we are all brothers kind of society like Denmark or Sweden or Norway or Switzerland, or Germany, etc, where people don't feel alienated by their society, their government, but valued and included rather than knowing they are at some point going to be victims of one kind of another in our society, knowing they will be screwed if they aren't already. Maybe thats it, maybe a society like Canada just gives people more of a feeling of belonging. I don't know, but it is an interesting point: Why do guns kill so many people here, but not in Canada?

[buzz1941]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

There are gun-ownership statistics that rate the percentage among the population, but this has little relationship to the sheer number of guns in the population. In the U.S., there are 90 guns per 100 Americans, highest in the world. Second place is Yemen, with 61 guns per 100 Yemenis. Canada has about 32 guns per 100 Canadians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._gun_ownership

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

My random thoughts:

Joe, buddy, I don't think you are so myopic, at least with dealing with lifetime realities, you are 20-20.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

That made matapule chuckle. Frankie is perfectly capable of harrassing people on their own! And matapule says this with great admiration, no one better at harrassment than Frankie!

Yes, he's quite competent. And since he has wisely decided to put me on ignore, what say we let him make his own decisions.
And I hope with that you and I can go back to being friends again.
Give peace a chance, wot?

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

There are gun-ownership statistics that rate the percentage among the population, but this has little relationship to the sheer number of guns in the population. In the U.S., there are 90 guns per 100 Americans, highest in the world. Second place is Yemen, with 61 guns per 100 Yemenis. Canada has about 32 guns per 100 Canadians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._gun_ownership

Thanks, Buzz, even though those statistics are of legal gun ownership and likely don't count the millions of illegal, unregistered weapons out there. Also, consider that many guns in America are parts of collections (when I was allowed to, I owned about 20 - for different purposes - myself). Yemenis, by your statistics likely have at least one AK-47, full automatic assault weapon for each family! We can't even match that firepower with our auto-loading and single-shot 'toys.'

It's important for us to realize that our society is more driven by our shared culture than by our access to tools. We would still be farming even if the plow was never invented - just not as efficiently.

Guns are a part of everyone's culture now, whether or not we like it; it is how we train, empower and educate our offspring (and this includes training and education from popular films and books, etc.,) that will determine whether we learn to use our tools properly or misuse our tools.

Numbers and statistics only go so far to helping us make decisions - or we would have banned personal transportation long ago, and put the money into comprehensive public transit instead. Cars have one purpose - killing people.

When the founders of our country decided that arms ownership was important for fighting enemies "Foreign and domestic," I know they did not consider that political differences would be settled by assassination of those undeserving simply because they were against your views.

Arms ownership still has a place in our society, but regulation of that ownership is lacking. Training and assessment is essential.

I am prohibited from owning arms because I am a combat veteran (how stupid is that?) who has 2 degrees of PTSD: I notice everything around me (hypervigilance - I have a complete set of mechanics tools that I picked up off the roads one piece at a time because I have a compulsion to investigate roadside anomalies [I was a mine-sweep engineer] - to ensure there is no danger to others. I notice everything around me, on the roads, sidewalks or whatever.) and take steps to eliminate any possible danger. The second is anterograde amnesia - I don't remember everything that happens to me. That's it. No flashbacks, bad dreams, night sweats, acting out or any of the other of the long list I posted earlier. So many others are less qualified to own guns than I, who have no criminal record, no psych profile that would keep me from owning a .22 so I could teach my son to shoot responsibly.

There is no justice in that blanket prohibition, and for myself, I don't care much. But I see the direction our country is going, remember my history of pre-nazi Germany in the '30's, and it makes me very afraid.

If we lose our RIGHT to own firearms, we lose control of our country, and stand vulnerable to outside invasion. Pearl Harbor and 1941 was but 50 years ago. We were invaded. 9-11 was just more than 10 years ago - and don't think that the radical terrorists are finished yet. In fact, I know they are not.

We have a superior military, but we are not invulnerable. Our National Guard is hardly a militia. If it ever gets to the point where we must defend our values against either an external or internal takeover, we will be glad we maintained the second amendment. If we don't, we are already lost.

The pressing social issue is: "How do we prevent the misuse of weapons?" Ultimately, we cannot, but we can take steps to minimize it. It is not unreasonable to demand firearms training (including safety and appropriate use) before purchase, and a psych profile, as well. Neither will "infringe" ownership, but will provide us instead with a safe and sane civilian militia as demanded by our constitution.

OK, off the soapbox. You now know more about me than I'd have wanted, and have heard more from me than you wanted. The future is in your hands; you can keep rubbing that lamp for a genie or holding that cross and pray for a miracle to keep us out of trouble, or you can apply some solid logic and determine what preparations we need to survive. Look to history to determine the future.

Perhaps we cannot prevent every death of innocents - in fact we all now we cannot. But we have a good chance of protecting our National Values and our National Presence, if we listen well to the warnings of our forefathers, who fought a war more terrible and desperate than anything we have had to face since.

FWIW

[Kalalau]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

For what its worth, two stories in the news today with some bearing. One, two students shot "accidentally" when a gun brought to school discharges in LA. Oh I do hope everybody has good insurance! Two, a New York murder. An Islamic couple started up a cable channel to dispel negative stereotypes about Islam. A while later the wife files for divorce. A few days after that her beheaded body is found. Which only goes to prove that if you are determined enough to kill somebody you don't need a gun.

[matapule]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

And since he has wisely decided to put me on ignore, what say we let him make his own decisions.

You don't seem to understand or are unfamiliar with the concept of matapule. This is what matapules are all about, resolving conflicts within the community. No need for guns or violence, matapule take care of conflicts to the point of isolating or marginalizing the wackos (and they have them in Tonga) if necessary. Too bad we don't have the matapule system here in the US. There are a couple of good matapule candidates right here on HT!

Just a quick off topic story. We had a fellow in our village who was nothing but trouble for everyone. His name was Foki Kovi which translates to "Bad Trip." And a bad trip he was! Well, this matapule introduced him to, of all things, popcorn! Foki Kovi loved popcorn. This matapule was able to influence and control him with a regular ration of popcorn. If he misbehaved, no popcorn. Problem solved for the village.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Joe, buddy, I don't think you are so myopic, at least with dealing with lifetime realities, you are 20-20.

Thanks, Kaonohi. I've written many stupid things in the past, and I'm sure I will write more in the future.

One goof I already made was to refer to Gifford as a Governor instead of a Congresswoman.

Numbers and statistics only go so far to helping us make decisions - or we would have banned personal transportation long ago, and put the money into comprehensive public transit instead. Cars have one purpose - killing people.

Haha, good point. We'll never ban cars because people won't give up the life style, and the governments/corporations would not tolerate the short/middle-term loss in productivity/profits. Protecting the public is only good as long as someone else does the sacrificing.

I am a combat veteran who has 2 degrees of PTSD: I notice everything around me (hypervigilance - I have a complete set of mechanics tools that I picked up off the roads one piece at a time because I have a compulsion to investigate roadside anomalies [I was a mine-sweep engineer] - to ensure there is no danger to others. I notice everything around me, on the roads, sidewalks or whatever.) and take steps to eliminate any possible danger.

Oh, wow. The hyper-vigilance that made you good at your job, that allowed you to save lives, is a double-edged sword.

Please accept my thanks for serving in the military; and the reason why I'm thanking you is because after going through war, you will NEVER be the same person you was before. In a sense, you have already given up your life for others.

By chance have you ever heard of the activist Stan Goff? Check out one of his books, perhaps "Full-Spectrum Disorder: The military in the New American Century". You'll either like him or hate him. One of my military friends served with Goff and thinks he's a flake. My other military friend says he's one of the most important voices in our country, because he's a soldier writing to other soldiers.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

One, two students shot "accidentally" when a gun brought to school discharges in LA. Oh I do hope everybody has good insurance!

Heh heh, yup!

There are no such things as "accidental discharges"; only "negligent discharges".

Thanks for sharing, Kalalau.

We had a fellow in our village who was nothing but trouble for everyone. His name was Foki Kovi which translates to "Bad Trip." And a bad trip he was! Well, this matapule introduced him to, of all things, popcorn! Foki Kovi loved popcorn. This matapule was able to influence and control him with a regular ration of popcorn. If he misbehaved, no popcorn. Problem solved for the village.

Inspiring story, Matapule! Brains over brawn.

I assume ancient Tongan society had a warrior caste and that Tongans killed other Tongans with weapons? Of course, I think what you're saying is that many/most conflicts can be solved without violence; with wisdom and creativity instead.



If you need to use a weapon to defend yourself, then you've already failed. There are many things you can do to avoid physical conflict. Of course I concede some conflicts are "unavoidable", but maybe it's because you're blinded to other options or your lack of awareness allowed you to fall into a precarious situation.

Marc MacYoung has EXCELLENT advice on self-defense and more importantly on AVOIDING crime. The only problem is his website is HORRIBLY organized. He went too crazy with the hyperlinks. Anyways, check these two articles out:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pyramid.html


Another excellent resource is Gavin de Becker's "The Gift of Fear". If you're a parent, especially a mother, then I recommend "Protecting the Gift". It's got the same information, but framed differently.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

You don't seem to understand or are unfamiliar with the concept of matapule. This is what matapules are all about, resolving conflicts within the community. No need for guns or violence, matapule take care of conflicts to the point of isolating or marginalizing the wackos (and they have them in Tonga) if necessary. Too bad we don't have the matapule system here in the US. There are a couple of good matapule candidates right here on HT!

Oh and I'm certain both Frankie and I are candidates. Where were you when Frankie was harassing me? This seems like small change in comparison!
There is no comperable term in Hawaiian according to our dictionaries, and any close shots would embarass you - so I'll be considerate.
However, there didn't seem to be any problem - Frankie didn't complain, no one else complained...
I think you need more explaining to do for your actions. What are you hiding? What, or who, motivated you? Was Frankie afraid to confront me himself? (doubtful)
BTW, thanks for calling me a whacko; the greatest insult would be to accuse me of being "normal." I'm no closer to normal than you.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Oh, wow. The hyper-vigilance that made you good at your job, that allowed you to save lives, is a double-edged sword.

Please accept my thanks for serving in the military; and the reason why I'm thanking you is because after going through war, you will NEVER be the same person you was before. In a sense, you have already given up your life for others.

By chance have you ever heard of the activist Stan Goff?

I know of Stan Goff, but have not real ALL of his works. He is sharp, and still learning. Most of his experience was post-Vietnam. Not that it is invalid, but I related more to Joe Haldeman, who was in the Nam and wrote "1968" and "War Year," which I found more explanatory.

Thanks accepted, though I served under duress and unwillingly. For VietNam Vets, the most meaningful thing you can say is, "Welcome Home." That is the one thing we never heard from anyone but family, and the most touching thing you can say to a Nam Vet today (have a handkerchief ready). We are 40 years overdue for our "welcome home."

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

The Kumbayah moment in Congress has come and gone. And anyone who thought that the Tucson tragedy would soften the gun control debate,.... well, here's the slap of reality for ya.

Gun Control Debate Faces Uphill Battle

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) on Tuesday formally unveiled a bill to ban the sale of high-capacity ammunition magazines like the ones used by alleged Tucson shooter Jared Loughner.

McCarthy said at the unveiling that such clips are "not needed in our society," while Rep. Jim Moran, a Virginia Democrat, deemed the proposal "extremely moderate." Yet as Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, noted at the hearing, no Republicans have come out in favor of the bill. And it cannot get through the GOP-led House without at least some Republican support.

A new Washington Post-ABC News poll found, however, that 57 percent support a nationwide ban on high-capacity clips.

Of course, there's many lawmakers in DC who place a greater value on their relationships with lobbyists rather than the voice of the people.

The Center for Responsive Politics found that gun rights groups spent $3.9 million and employed 49 lobbyists during the first nine months of 2010. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, spent just $180,000 and employed nine lobbyists.

The Center for Public Integrity, meanwhile, found that MidwayUSA, which sells the high capacity clips, has raised more than $5 million for the NRA's lobbying efforts.

This disparity shouldn't be surprising to anyone. After all, it takes quite a bit of cash and hand-greasing to get anyone to believe this kind of dog kaka:

In a statement last week, the NRA's lobbying arm opposed a ban on high-capacity clips, as well as other new gun control measures.

"These magazines are standard equipment for self-defense handguns and other firearms owned by tens of millions of Americans," the group said. "Law-abiding private citizens choose them for many reasons, including the same reason police officers do: to improve their odds in defensive situations."

Yep. Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds is a necessity for "self-defense."

But with the Republicans in control of the House, I'm afraid that common sense on this issue will elude us for at least the next two years.