Arizona congresswoman shot

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Yup, she can do or not do what ever she wants, without having to explain herself. We live in a mostly free country.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

The second thing she should do is take an actual gun safety class (from a reputable instructor). She should prove she has the intelligence and discipline to handle a firearm safely. If she takes a self defense course, that would be even better.

With all due respect, the decision on whether or not another person decides to take a gun safety class is a personal one for that person to make. In particular, I would think this kind of decision should be respected for someone whose spouse was killed by a gun.

If Carolyn McCarthy never wants to handle a gun under any circumstances (even in a training course) because it would re-open emotional scars from that horrific day nearly 18 years ago, then who is anyone to judge?

If that makes her less of a credible legislator when it comes to gun control in some quarters, then that's up to them. But those folks shouldn't expect their opinion on the matter to be a universal one. AFAIAC, Rep. McCarthy has nothing to prove to me.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

this lady has actually lived through the nightmare and truly KNOWS what the victim's survivors are going through. With all that said, this doesn't mean that everyone needs to agree with McCarthy's proposals. But casting aspersions on her sincerity and convictions on the issue,... sorry, that just doesn't fly.

Yes, I made a blanket statement about politicians which isn't fair to all of them.

In regards to Rep. McCarthy, I don't doubt the sincerity of her gun control politics. The question is will I, being a person on the fence about gun control, be able to respect the reasoning (not emotions) of her gun control politics and possibly vote in agreement with her?

(before I continue, let me say I know nothing about Rep. McCarthy nor have ever heard/read any statement of hers)

If she wants influence with the segment of the gun community that may be swayed, one thing she needs to do is competently speak their language. If she refers to a "semi-automatic" gun as "automatic", she will lose credibility. If asked what a "folding stock" is and she says "a rifle scope thingy?" people will laugh and tune her out. On the other hand, if she says "magazine" instead of "clip" she'll gain brownie points.

The second thing she should do is take an actual gun safety class (from a reputable instructor). She should prove she has the intelligence and discipline to handle a firearm safely. If she takes a self defense course, that would be even better.

Finally, I'd recommend she spend quality time with people who have used guns in self defense such as former officer Massad Ayoob, or Suzanna Gratia, who couldn't prevent her father from being shot because she left her gun in the car as per Texas law at the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ggg0LwhrH0

If a politician went through all this effort to sincerely see things from the other side of the issue and still wanted more gun control, I would totally respect that person and listen to what they have to say. If Congresswoman Gifford does this, she'd have even more influence.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Of course, there's many lawmakers in DC who place a greater value on their relationships with lobbyists rather than the voice of the people.

I think that's true for most politicians. Heck, I bet after a long day of "work", Democrats and Republicans are buddy buddy behind the scenes. The whole Dem vs. Rep thing is like a parent who controls a stubborn child that doesn't want to wear the clothes they're expected to wear. You give them the illusion of a choice between two outfits, but in the end you're the one controlling the choices.

True for most politicians? I certainly won't argue that point. However, a special note needs to be made about the Congresswoman who has introduced this bill.

Carolyn McCarthy's husband was one of 6 victims killed in the 1993 Long Island rail massacre. Her son was wounded in the attack and left partially paralyzed. Knowing these facts, it would take one heckuva cynic to cast Rep. McCarthy as someone who is merely grandstanding and introducing her gun control measure for publicity. Now anyone can claim several degrees of seperation from one of the victims in Tucson. OTOH, this lady has actually lived through the nightmare and truly KNOWS what the victim's survivors are going through. With all that said, this doesn't mean that everyone needs to agree with McCarthy's proposals. But casting aspersions on her sincerity and convictions on the issue,... sorry, that just doesn't fly.

Here's the SD justification for extended magazines: to reduce how often you need to reload, a time when you're most vulnerable (look at what happened to Loughner).

SD folks fixate on the most extreme scenario: they are alone and ambushed by multiple assailants who are armed with guns, knives, bats, etc. They expect to miss a lot and have more attackers to deal with.

Instead of feeling the need to have larger magazines, these scenarios make me feel the need to learn how to avoid them all together.

I guess a member of the mob might need to have that much firepower at their disposal. Someone in the drug trade, extortion racket, etc. OTOH, any law-abiding person who feels the need to own the same is just plain paranoid.

SD'ers also think a lot about EOTWAWKI scenarios (end of the world as we know it). I really don't know if I'd want to live in that reality.

And you would do well to stay clear out of that dark, twisted world where the inhabitants are eking out their existence, but are not really living.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Or maybe it's time for members to try and get back on topic, or find another thread.

Indeed. Good call, Ryan (I assume).

I think one thing we can agree on is that this was (is) a needless tragedy and that whatever our political affiliation or leaning, our prayers (for those who do) and good wishes (for those who wish) should be directed to the individuals and families who were the victims of a person who was most certainly deluded, if not insane.

It is unlikely that we can prevent such tragedies in the future - since we haven't been so good in the past. Still, we must try, even if it means butting our heads together till we can no longer think straight.

[buzz1941]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

I'm breathlessly waiting for Godwin's Law.

[admin]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Or maybe it's time for members to try and get back on topic, or find another thread.

[matapule]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

This thread is spinning so far off topic, that it is no longer serving a useful purpose. Time for moderators to shut it down.

[Walkoff Balk]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_807532.html

This is a low tech version of a force field.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Yep. Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds is a necessity for "self-defense."

Well, maybe for you it is - I don't know what your firearms proficiency is, though from your rhetoric, I'd tend to believe 33 rounds may not be enough.

Actually, 33 rounds takes about 18+ seconds, but why quibble over a few seconds? For HPD it may be a bonus, having had to use over 300 rounds in the Kaneohe Kahekili Highway incident several years ago to murder a 'suspect.' Perhaps we need to arm HPD with bazookas....

I liked the idea of the Glock 15 round magazine, but didn't quibble when our state demanded adherence to 10 rounds max. I have never needed more than one at a time, or perhaps two - if the target moved.

You are right, Frankie, 33 rounds is more for a wartime situation, but still, even with that, a Glock 17 or 19, even with an extended magazine is not by any means an "assault weapon."

An assault weapon has full-automatic (i.e., machine gun) capability. It has rounds (bullets) capable of inflicting the most possible damage, like the AK-47 7.62x39 mm, or the M-16 .223, or the M-14 7.62x51. The magazines are 20 to 50 rounds each, and are made for assault during wartime.

Semi-automatic weapons (more accurately 'autoloading'), are poor choices for assault. Full-auto assault weapons can discharge 33 rounds in about 3 seconds. The so-called 'assault weapon ban' simply banned lookalike weapons, as full-automatic weapons are already (and appropriately) illegal.

For self defense in a home invasion situation (which are getting more and more common in the USA as criminals get their illegal weapons from Mexico and other overseas locations), a 9mm handgun with 8 to 10 rounds is more than adequate IF the homeowner has been through a training class on how to use a handgun properly, safely and accurately. I would love to see that as a requirement for firearm possession, as it already is in Hawaii.

In fact, I'd love to see our HPD better trained in the use of all their weapons - imagine tasering an old, fragile homeless woman who could have been restrained by hand! Remember that one?

I see our society more and more heading toward a fascist police state, using the rubric of 'protect and serve' as an excuse. No wonder that the NRA and the GOA are fighting the slippery slope of "if they ban this then they'll ban that" and soon we'll be like England, where common law-abiding citizens are jailed for protecting their homes from criminals.

Criminals will always have access to firearms; only law-abiding citizens will be disarmed. We require schooling, training and testing for drivers of motor vehicles, why not for firearms? Even the NRA wouldn't argue with that - in fact, they would welcome it.

We need to get off the firearm hysteria and start to look at things with logic and sensibility. This 'Chicken Little' panic approach will NOT bring us to any useful conclusions. Spouting dramatic inaccuracies like "Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds" serves nothing but the fear factor, and (according to Franklin D. Roosevelt, often attributed to Winston Churchill) "we have nothing to fear but fear itself."

Fearmongers, take heed; you are exposed and your days are numbered.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

We are 40 years overdue for our "welcome home."

Welcome home, Kaonohi. Our country is a better place with people like you back here, where you belong.

I never heard of Joe Haldeman. Thanks for pointing him out. I'll have to check out his books.

Of course, there's many lawmakers in DC who place a greater value on their relationships with lobbyists rather than the voice of the people.

I think that's true for most politicians. Heck, I bet after a long day of "work", Democrats and Republicans are buddy buddy behind the scenes. The whole Dem vs. Rep thing is like a parent who controls a stubborn child that doesn't want to wear the clothes they're expected to wear. You give them the illusion of a choice between two outfits, but in the end you're the one controlling the choices.

Most Americans (myself included) are still immature children because we look to the government to take care and protect us. Many of us are not very self-reliant. We overly depend on systems of support run by politicians/bureaucrats, paid for by tax dollars, and which are relatively fragile (just-in-time-inventory = great profit margins but vulnerable to disruptions in the supply chain).

Do we use our pantries the way they're meant to be used? Do we have a 3 week supply of food/necessities in case a sunken vessel blocks the entrance to our port, the shoremen decide to go on strike, or a flu pandemic leads to a forced quarantine? If you were among the many who rushed to the store, after an earthquake or news of an upcoming hurricane, to snatch up bottled water, toilet tissue, and bread; then the answer is "no".

Do most of us have a 72-hour emergency survival kit with critical items such as anti-diarrhea medication so our children don't die of dehydration after drinking contaminated water at a public shelter?

How many of us still carry a balance on our credit cards? Slaves to debt, eaten alive every day by compounding interest?

Sorry for the tangent, but I believe our government and politicians abuse us because we are a weak people. You want to be treated with respect? You need to earn that respect. We shouldn't look to politicians to do things for us; we should do as much as much as we can for ourselves. Reduce taxes (and fees, which are hidden taxes), shrink government, and get politicians out of our way. Work on making yourself and your community strong.

Yep. Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds is a necessity for "self-defense."

Here's the SD justification for extended magazines: to reduce how often you need to reload, a time when you're most vulnerable (look at what happened to Loughner).

SD folks fixate on the most extreme scenario: they are alone and ambushed by multiple assailants who are armed with guns, knives, bats, etc. They expect to miss a lot and have more attackers to deal with.

Instead of feeling the need to have larger magazines, these scenarios make me feel the need to learn how to avoid them all together.

A 33-round mag is too large to carry around concealed (not to mention unwieldy in a handgun), so you'd most likely use it around your home, work place, or vehicle; not walking through a supermarket.

I don't care for the 33-round magazine myself, but here's why I think some gun owners are fighting for them: they feel that if they give an inch, the government will take a mile. They push for more rights now, because they expect to lose ground in the future.

SD'ers also think a lot about EOTWAWKI scenarios (end of the world as we know it). I really don't know if I'd want to live in that reality.

[MyopicJoe]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Matapule: What's the population density like in Tonga? Do a lot of Tongans immigrate away? How big is the gap between the rich and the poor? Would most of the people in Tonga be considered middle class? What's the drug abuse rate like down there? Do most Tongans garden/farm and grow their own food?

[matapule]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

I assume ancient Tongan society had a warrior caste and that Tongans killed other Tongans with weapons?

Absolutely! The Tongans carried it to an art form. Today they are a very non-violent people. The practice of making war not only on your neighbors but also on your own people was a cultural practice to protect the food supply, insure survival of the fittest, and entertainment. Today they consider that mentality "primitive." Personal ownership of guns is banned in Tonga. Consequently, the violent crime rate is very low.

Unfortunately, the US culture hasn't progressed to that point yet.

Where were you when Frankie was harassing me?

Matapules work in strange ways to keep peace in the community.

I think you need more explaining to do for your actions.

Male menopause?

What are you hiding? What, or who, motivated you?

Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker, Jose Cuervo, and Bud Weiser

I'm no closer to normal than you.

Ha! I have IRTNOG and you never will.

[Frankie's Market]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

The Kumbayah moment in Congress has come and gone. And anyone who thought that the Tucson tragedy would soften the gun control debate,.... well, here's the slap of reality for ya.

Gun Control Debate Faces Uphill Battle

Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.) on Tuesday formally unveiled a bill to ban the sale of high-capacity ammunition magazines like the ones used by alleged Tucson shooter Jared Loughner.

McCarthy said at the unveiling that such clips are "not needed in our society," while Rep. Jim Moran, a Virginia Democrat, deemed the proposal "extremely moderate." Yet as Paul Helmke, president of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, noted at the hearing, no Republicans have come out in favor of the bill. And it cannot get through the GOP-led House without at least some Republican support.

A new Washington Post-ABC News poll found, however, that 57 percent support a nationwide ban on high-capacity clips.

Of course, there's many lawmakers in DC who place a greater value on their relationships with lobbyists rather than the voice of the people.

The Center for Responsive Politics found that gun rights groups spent $3.9 million and employed 49 lobbyists during the first nine months of 2010. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, spent just $180,000 and employed nine lobbyists.

The Center for Public Integrity, meanwhile, found that MidwayUSA, which sells the high capacity clips, has raised more than $5 million for the NRA's lobbying efforts.

This disparity shouldn't be surprising to anyone. After all, it takes quite a bit of cash and hand-greasing to get anyone to believe this kind of dog kaka:

In a statement last week, the NRA's lobbying arm opposed a ban on high-capacity clips, as well as other new gun control measures.

"These magazines are standard equipment for self-defense handguns and other firearms owned by tens of millions of Americans," the group said. "Law-abiding private citizens choose them for many reasons, including the same reason police officers do: to improve their odds in defensive situations."

Yep. Being able to fire 33 rounds in 10 seconds is a necessity for "self-defense."

But with the Republicans in control of the House, I'm afraid that common sense on this issue will elude us for at least the next two years.

[Kaonohi]

Re: Arizona congresswoman shot

Oh, wow. The hyper-vigilance that made you good at your job, that allowed you to save lives, is a double-edged sword.

Please accept my thanks for serving in the military; and the reason why I'm thanking you is because after going through war, you will NEVER be the same person you was before. In a sense, you have already given up your life for others.

By chance have you ever heard of the activist Stan Goff?

I know of Stan Goff, but have not real ALL of his works. He is sharp, and still learning. Most of his experience was post-Vietnam. Not that it is invalid, but I related more to Joe Haldeman, who was in the Nam and wrote "1968" and "War Year," which I found more explanatory.

Thanks accepted, though I served under duress and unwillingly. For VietNam Vets, the most meaningful thing you can say is, "Welcome Home." That is the one thing we never heard from anyone but family, and the most touching thing you can say to a Nam Vet today (have a handkerchief ready). We are 40 years overdue for our "welcome home."